25715 réponses à ce sujet

[CrookedAsylum]

ElitePinecone wrote... 

I'm just... a bit mystified. What is it about the character that resonates so strongly with some people? To the point where he's (in many cases) literally the first thing that pops into their head when s/s romances are discussed? 

Because he's that universally sexy.

Modifié par CrookedAsylum, 18 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[CrookedAsylum]

Chun Hei wrote...

Did not one of the Salarian workers Thane saved send Shepard an email that had some s/s undertones in it? I found that odd since Thane was not a s/s option and I thought that Salarians do not have a sex drive like most of the sapient races do. Or maybe I just read too much into it.

That... was an easter egg reference to one of the BSN members, username Jeirt which is the name of the salarian, and what she personally typed up on the Thane fanclub about Thane.

I giggled like a manly man.

[Darth Krytie]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

For me there's just something wrong with it that I can't fully explain. I could probably provide tons of analogies but never come close to encapsolating what it is about it that turns me off.

I'd still play the game, but something would be lost for me. 

I remember that on Pulse, I think, they spoke of having ways to have a firm friendship, should you choose, instead of romance with characters.

I mean...even if he were a LI, you wouldn't have to pursue it. So long as they don't give you the fem!shep-->Jacob sort of "hey baby" sorta talk, even if you're just trying to get their loyalty mission.

If the romance possibility was purely initiated by you (with no prior flirt inflection without your intent), I don't get why it'd lose something for you.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 18 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[Athayniel]

I've only just started reading this thread (not even at page 20) so it's possible this has already been addressed in some way, but I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the drive behind the point of view of those who don't want a character to be romanceable by both femShep and manShep in ME3 because they were "straight" in the previous games. If I recall correctly, no one says anything about their orientation at any point during the game and don't 'come on' to Shepard without certain conversation choices having been made beforehand. Admittedly, ninjamancing is a valid concern but if that is taken out of the equation then surely the orientation of any given character in the game would be completely unknown to your character unless you initiate a romance.

If you take the view that any particular playthrough is a canon unto itself then Ashley – for example – being romanceable by either Shepard is a moot point. She's just a straight girl in a game with a manShep and a lesbian in a game with a femShep. What happens in other playthroughs is surely irrelevant. Of course I'm not saying this to denigrate bisexuality at all, I just don't see how it would come up in such a situation unless Ashley were to actually show a sexual interest in someone of the opposite gender to Shepard in a particular playthrough. Though perhaps such a situation might explain some of the apprehension I've read in the first 20 pages of the thread over fears as to the possibility of the VS being bisexual.

Don't worry, Sheploo, Ashley's only a lesbian in someone else's game. Have no fear femShep, Kaidan won't be making eyes at Joker in your game.

So far the Ashley/Kaiden romance has only been available to the opposite gender, but that's not a reason not to make it available to the same gender in my opinion.

I only mention the VS in this post but feel free to applu my opinion to any of the romanceable characters. If they were all available to both sexes that would be the best solution as far as I'm concerned. At that point it becomes an issue of not inpinging on anyone's immersion. Which would mean taking steps to avoid ninjamancing primarily. Romances only triggered by the PC is a first step. Clearly marking romance trigger dialogue options is a next step. Perhaps coupled with allowing players to note down their character's orientation somewhere so they only see the flirt choices appropriate to their character. A straight Sheploo isn't going to lay down the innuendo with Garrus for instance, though I'm sure he'd have at least some interest in the big guy's family back home.

Right... back to page 21 for me.

[Nynaeve]

@Athayniel

Bingo.

The over dramatics of some people opposing s/s inclusion is based around their view on the whole game and every eventuality as opposed to what would happen in their particular playthrough. So why worry that Ash wants to shag femshep too if you're playing manshep?

Answer: YOU SHOULDN'T

[MalcolmM]

I see it as a bonus for players in the sense that I didn't like Ashley or Liara, so my Sheploos didn't get any in ME. Since I don't like playing femShep, I was SOL. Now if the VS is "bi" in ME3, it's a win/win for me. Still don't like Liara, but now I can have Kaidan (Ashley never got off Virmire for my Sheploos) OR any other available LI. How is this a Bad Thing?

TBH, I have never liked Bioware's "leading ladies" - Jaheira, Bastila, Ashley, Morrigan, Miranda all leave me cold as prospective LIs,so my alternatives are play as fem (I really don't like to do that), be celibate, or more recently, see what the other team has to offer. At least it offers something interesting as an "aside" to the main story.

[OSUP]

My Shepard is saving himself for Joker or Garrus...just ignore the sex with Liara and Miranda and he's totally a virgin.

[joeYF127]

so glad to see "dont ask, dont tell" is finally gone for good in the future.

[bas_kon]

I never understood that policy IRL (although this doens't apply in my country, since there have been several military weddings between gay male soldiers). I mean, come on! the person who you share your bed with doesn't have anything to do with shooting better or worse your gun.

On topic, is it true what a poster said a few pages before that Kaidan was never intended as bisexual? If so, it'd be rather weird having the banned dialog in modded games, wouldn't it?

[ScotGaymer]

Bioware talked about it about Ashley and Kaidan being bisexual in ME1 and decided against it; largely because of time constraints and because they viewed it as not cost effective in a time versus usage of the content way.
They didnt think a lot of people would be interested in SS.

They have decided now to include SS in ME3 because (in ME2 they had too much to do period never mind in relation to SS) they realise from DAO and DA2 that there is sufficient demand and will be sufficient uptake on the romances to justify their inclusion.

So an arguement could be made for either side on that one. Bioware thought about making the VS bisexual to begin with but decided against it.

[MACharlie1]

bas_kon wrote...

I never understood that policy IRL (although this doens't apply in my country, since there have been several military weddings between gay male soldiers). I mean, come on! the person who you share your bed with doesn't have anything to do with shooting better or worse your gun.

On topic, is it true what a poster said a few pages before that Kaidan was never intended as bisexual? If so, it'd be rather weird having the banned dialog in modded games, wouldn't it?

I think the theory behind banning gays in military is efficiency - don't want any funny business going on in the barracks, right? Of course this has been debunked and proven that the training creates a brotherly connection rather then any intimate-romantic overtones. 

[ElitePinecone]

Mike Gamble just deflected a question on a maleShep-Kaidan romance.

Don't think we'll be getting anything helpful for... aaaages.

[bas_kon]

MACharlie1 wrote...

I think the theory behind banning gays
in military is efficiency - don't want any funny business going on in
the barracks, right? Of course this has been debunked and proven that
the training creates a brotherly connection rather then any
intimate-romantic overtones. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Well
yeah, that maybe true but in ancient Greece they incitated soldiers to
have personal relationships between them because those bonds made them more decided to win and more willing to give their lives in the
battle along with their comrades and it went pretty well, see Sparta for instance best soldiers ever. Besides, it's
stupid that funny-business thing since not everyone is into men and there are women too, unless there
aren't in the US and Canada.

@FitScotGaymer: That's how I took it too, but the post said VS (and I think Kaidan specifically) was straight. ALso this was posted by a guy who was against s/s Kaidan so...
I still think he is bi, though (because of the moded conversations and the non-modded undertones as well) and I will think so until MShep hits on him and he turns him down telling him he's not into men. Otherwise, the problem will be that the devs didn't allow shepard to find out, same as ME1.

The good thing is that we do have the option, but WHO????? I wonder :pinched:can't wait anymore...

[shepskisaac]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Mike Gamble just deflected a question on a maleShep-Kaidan romance.

Deflecting a question is also kind of good, we know what it usually means

[Yezdigerd]

bas_kon wrote...

Well yeah, that maybe true but in ancient Greece they incitated soldiers to have personal relationships between them because those bonds made them more decided to win and more willing to give their lives in the battle along with their comrades and it went pretty well, see Sparta for instance best soldiers ever. 

Not to derail but Ancient Greece isn't really the inspiration you want for gay rights. They practiced pederasty, were a grown man were supposed to guide a adoloscent into adulthood, this was a very unequal relationship, were the boy was passive and recieved gifts and ended when the boy became a man. Sex between grown men was viewed as disgraceful as a rule.

Also unlike the rest of Greece there is no evidence that homosexuality was socially endorsed in Sparta and much that suggest it wasn't.

[Chun Hei]

Israel has gays openly serving in the military which is ironic since it was the laws in the Torah that helped cement homophobia in western civilization. I really cannot think of another country that has as much to lose by losing military cohesion so I doubt that they have found any serious reasons to NOT have s/s soldiers serve with o/s ones.

[bas_kon]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Not to derail but Ancient Greece isn't really the inspiration you want for gay rights. They practiced pederasty, were a grown man were supposed to guide a adoloscent into adulthood, this was a very unequal relationship, were the boy was passive and recieved gifts and ended when the boy became a man. Sex between grown men was viewed as disgraceful as a rule.

Also unlike the rest of Greece there is no evidence that homosexuality was socially endorsed in Sparta and much that suggest it wasn't.

:huh:Well, I'm not a scholar, so I don't mean to intrude, but as far as I'm concern sexualities didn't exist until mid XXth century, so they shouldn't have any problem with a concept they didn't even know. Also, I read somewhere, homosexual acts weren't seeing as something sinful (at least not more than the straight ones without the intention of producing offspring) until 5 or 4 centuries ago when it became a tendence to acuse someone annoying and/or inconveniently powerful of sodomy to take him down, I think it started in France, not sure. I speak about Europe and especially my country, though, of course I don't know about other cultures. And I doubt Sparta was THE exception of the Greece empire, since people never agree on these things putting personal views where they shouldn't.
And it's not pederasty to be with a teen being an adult, I wouldn't do it myself since I'm into more mature people but I respect it if the two people are attracted to each other and want to do it, I don't care, none of my business (the consent age here is 13 or 14, I think).
Also, it was bad for two grown men to have sex without one of them being a slave (wich they had in the intimacy) because masculinity was about power of submitting someone and feminity about being submitted, thus being passive was degradating (like in Rome) and children, teens, women and slaves were second-class citizens degradated by default. Except in Sparta where women were closer to men's rights because men were almost always at war and died young (kind of sad not to have any sex except the few times you are at home and then die), that's why.
Also a few centuries ago, I think it was the English marine, not sure. It was illegal to have sex with a man even in secret, but passed 60 or 70 days at the sea, you could flirt and have sex openly with other men, even in front of the others and they wouldn't look bad at you.
It's kind of silly to compare, since we now see women as equals and feminity has become the new prototype of beauty.
And I don't think those are a good examples of gay rights (they didn't exist in their mind). It was just an example of how personal relationships between soldiers, in general, shouldn't affect the performance of the team, but improve them in any case and it 's a poor excuse not to allow gay/opened bi men people join the military either IRL or TV/Games because of that. You've read too much into my words. That's why I'm all for military romance in ME3 and beyond and if it's with awesome characters like Kaidan better s/s or not!! if only they released it sooner... March's to far.<_<

[Yezdigerd]

@bas_kon

Np, it's just that the assertion that Sparta's warrior caste embraced homosexuality, so gays in the military is a tried and true thing is a very common one, despite massive evidence against its somewhat of a pet peeve of mine :happy:

Ancient Greece didn't consider homosexuality a sin in the traditional christian tradition. rather the passive penetrated part, as feminized, immature, ill behaved, no stigma was attached to the active partner.
Greek theater mocked them as widearses and then as now it was a popular way to imply lack of masculinity in other individuals people and nations.

Customs, sexual or otherwise varied a lot between greek citystates. Sparta however was renowned for being positively alien. Not just the famous military system, but in the compulsory public education, the integration of women in society, their strange mix of monarchy/oligarchy/democracy dissallowing money, and so forth stuff that had really had no equivalant in the rest of Greece, which makes it hazardous to simply extrapolate their sexual habits.

If you are interested in the subject I can direct you further via PM.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 20 août 2011 - 12:40 .

[Xilizhra]

If you want a real example of ancient military homosexuality, see Thebes, in particular the Sacred Band.

[Abispa]

You want to REALLY know about gays in history, check out Fred and Barney, and Wilma and Betty. Nuff said.

[bas_kon]

@Yezdigerd: Most of the things you said in you last post match with what I posted so we don't differ so much. And about the information, sure! I'm always willing to learn more about my history, I don't spend my time just playing great RPG-Shooters with endearing characters and awesome story now including m/m romances...

@Xilizhra: I just wanted to point out the fact that the prejudices against non-straight men people IRL military aren't so old and such a rooted tradition and they make no sense, not in the past, not now and of course, not in the future. As well as having people separated by gender seems stupid and a pointless waste of resources and facilities to me, also discriminating. Like toilets, thank god the university is another world...you can breath equallity everywhere even at the toilets, although it stinks some times...

[MACharlie1]

bas_kon wrote...

@Yezdigerd: Most of the things you said in you last post match with what I posted so we don't differ so much. And about the information, sure! I'm always willing to learn more about my history, I don't spend my time just playing great RPG-Shooters with endearing characters and awesome story now including m/m romances...

@Xilizhra: I just wanted to point out the fact that the prejudices against non-straight men people IRL military aren't so old and such a rooted tradition and they make no sense, not in the past, not now and of course, not in the future. As well as having people separated by gender seems stupid and a pointless waste of resources and facilities to me, also discriminating. Like toilets, thank god the university is another world...you can breath equallity everywhere even at the toilets, although it stinks some times...

I actually like it the way it is. I'd rather not have to walk into a stall and find a bloody tampon...* 

*Experience of cleaning women's restrooms for a number of years speaking. Of course, I'm of the opinion that every building should have a complete seperate room for each person in the facility. Yes, that means if a building can hold up to a thousand people, I want a thousand bathrooms. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 20 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[BioticDeviantx7]

I'd like to start by saying I know I'm late to the discussion (even though I wouldn't have known there would be s/s relationships in ME3 without it! Thank you OP for starting it! =D ) I am very happy Bioware finally decided to include this into the final installment in the trilogy and I'll be pleased with however they decide to execute it in the story. I would be interested in seeing if BW decides to open up some of the old characters to s/s romance ( Kaidan *crosses fingers*) but even if they don't I'm sure there are plenty other options for our Sheps! Hooray to Bioware for choosing to do this!!