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[Rawles]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
Re: Jack, I guess it's an interpretation thing. I took it to mean she wasn't romantically interested, especially considering her follow-up line of "I like you, but let's leave it at that" or something like that.

Yes, but in context, again, "I like you but let's leave it at that" is pretty clearly about her emotional issues. She doesn't want to sit around and chat and be BFFs.

For her to reject romantic interest, FemShep would need to be able to express romantic interest in the first place. Which FemShep cannot do.

If you look at those lines through the context of Jack assuming heterosexuality on FemShep's part (which again, FemShep is not allowed to express anything else) it's clear that they're rebuffing a deeper platonic intimacy, not addressing anything sexual at all.


re: her references to romantic/sexual feelings with women

In addition to the threesome reveal, you can ask her about close relationships. She notes that she's been with a lot of "people" and then continues that she doesn't have a "boyfriend or a girlfriend." Both of which word choices indicate that to her a girlfriend is a possibility with equal weight as a boyfriend. This is especially notable considering how heterosexist dialogue/language in Mass Effect generally tends to be. It's also worth noting that when she talks about the threesome it's the girl (Minara) she particularly mentions and the dude is just Minara's boyfriend, indicating that the relationship (both friendly and sexual) was primarily with Minara.

I don't know whether Jack would identify as bi or pan or something else entirely, but she was clearly not straight.

Modifié par Rawles, 24 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[Abispa]

Sundance31us wrote...

Question: Would you consider Susan Ivanova (B5) as conservative as Ashley?

Russian Jews are notoriously counter culture hedonists. I'm pretty sure Isabela is one.

[Sundance31us]

Abispa wrote...
Russian Jews are notoriously counter culture hedonists. I'm pretty sure Isabela is one.

I can't tell if you're being serious.

[Abispa]

For the record, I personally believe that many of the ME2 cast were being set up to be "bi" LIs and were shut down. I have had several "official" Bioware people deny this, but I remain unconvinced. Too many times I saw the Bioware conversations leading to... a dead end. While the s/s Shepard seemed to be simply cut off from s/s flirting, Jack and Samara were the only ones to put the brakes on themselves.

Jack has had at least two relationships with women, but they were described as "selfish" and people who were simply using Jack for her abilities or because Jack has a history of using her sexuality as currency.

Kelly accurately described Jack as a woman who doesn't understand her own sexual motivations, and I can't either from the limited talks so her romance creeps me out as much as Tali's. Considering that her earliest sex experience was being raped by space pirates, or perhaps being molested in the biotic death camp, the implications are unpleasant. In fact, they are truly horrific. One of the the things I despise about SF in general is how it makes truly horrific situations seem trivial.

Her comment about her not being part of a "girls' club" was taken by me as meaning that now that she no longer fears being used or needs to sell herself for favors, she would rather be with a man. Yes, I suppose that a writer could easily write around this by explaining that I was wrong in my interpretation or that the magic of female Shepard may win her over, but I would be lying if I said that in her case s/s wouldn't bother me.

However, I am NOT going to whine about having my immersion ruined if she became available since none of my female Shepards will take advantage of her availability. Of course, since she was part of the ME2 Suicide Squad, I doubt that she will be allowed any NEW relationships, so I guess it's a moot point.

Modifié par Abispa, 24 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[SirLysander]

Abispa wrote...

Sundance31us wrote...

Question: Would you consider Susan Ivanova (B5) as conservative as Ashley?

Russian Jews are notoriously counter culture hedonists. I'm pretty sure Isabela is one.

Isabella is far too... brazen? and positive of her own, positive, outcomes to be a Russian Jew.  Or at least a Russian Jew still in/remembering the Pale. (Can't say much for decendents for emigrant Russian Jews; they'd be <<whatever the local name is>> Jews)

[Abispa]

Yes, I was joking, though I do see some parallels between Anders and my favorite red head psychic from B5. My Hawke wouldn't turn HER down, that is, if there were EVER such an improbable cross-over.

Hmm, maybe Bioware could have an RPG series based in the B5 universe. Perhaps even include a beta demo with ME3 [as I try desperately to get us back on topic].

[gamer_girl]

AmyMac wrote...

gamer_girl wrote...

Ya I personally don't see it fitting either. I don't mean to drag politics or anything like that into things, but people with very traditionalist values generally don't approve of such things. That's more progressive territory.

But there's no indication that Ashley's super traditionalist. If you choose the paragon option in the conversation about religion, she says something along the lines of "space is so beautiful and majestic that it makes me believe in God," NOT "my parents brought me up to be religious and made me read the Bible" or something like that.
There are plenty of Christians in this world who are open and accepting of homosexuals (and probably even a few who are gay themselves).

Well I guess most of it is my assuming. She has some of the general qualities of a traditionalist. She is religious, is a huge xenophobe, and seems of the opinion that heavy military is a good thing. I kinda figure if she's a xenophobe, it isn't a stretch to think that she may be a homophobe as well.

Edit:
She also shows an extreme distaste for gov't intervention. That's made clear by her snippy remarks when anything council related arises.

Modifié par gamer_girl, 24 août 2011 - 03:47 .

[Quole]

gamer_girl wrote...

AmyMac wrote...

gamer_girl wrote...

Ya I personally don't see it fitting either. I don't mean to drag politics or anything like that into things, but people with very traditionalist values generally don't approve of such things. That's more progressive territory.

But there's no indication that Ashley's super traditionalist. If you choose the paragon option in the conversation about religion, she says something along the lines of "space is so beautiful and majestic that it makes me believe in God," NOT "my parents brought me up to be religious and made me read the Bible" or something like that.
There are plenty of Christians in this world who are open and accepting of homosexuals (and probably even a few who are gay themselves).

Well I guess most of it is my assuming. She has some of the general qualities of a traditionalist. She is religious, is a huge xenophobe, and seems of the opinion that heavy military is a good thing. I kinda figure if she's a xenophobe, it isn't a stretch to think that she may be a homophobe as well.

That wouldnt surprise me.

[Abispa]

I would be LONG winded and WAY off topic to begin defending my Ashley from the "militaristic religious xenophobe" thing... again. *Sigh.*

[Quole]

Abispa wrote...

I would be LONG winded and WAY off topic to begin defending my Ashley from the "militaristic religious xenophobe" thing... again. *Sigh.*

... thats exactly what she is. lol

[ADLegend21]

gamer_girl wrote...

AmyMac wrote...

gamer_girl wrote...

Ya I personally don't see it fitting either. I don't mean to drag politics or anything like that into things, but people with very traditionalist values generally don't approve of such things. That's more progressive territory.

But there's no indication that Ashley's super traditionalist. If you choose the paragon option in the conversation about religion, she says something along the lines of "space is so beautiful and majestic that it makes me believe in God," NOT "my parents brought me up to be religious and made me read the Bible" or something like that.
There are plenty of Christians in this world who are open and accepting of homosexuals (and probably even a few who are gay themselves).

Well I guess most of it is my assuming. She has some of the general qualities of a traditionalist. She is religious, is a huge xenophobe, and seems of the opinion that heavy military is a good thing. I kinda figure if she's a xenophobe, it isn't a stretch to think that she may be a homophobe as well.

She's religious but let's people believe in what they want. She not a xenophobe. She does not fear Aliens, she does not hate them, she's mistrustful from past experience and limited exposure. She helps the Salarian team on Virmire, and leads them if Kirahe dies, with great efficiency. Her worry is that when the time comes the council will turn it's back on humanity and low and behold in Mass Effect 2 they cna'thelp with a "purely human matter" so she was right to be wary of them. at no point does she act like a traditionalist, just a soldier with a mind of her own.

[gamer_girl]

But her grandfather surrendering on Shanxi doesn't really give much of a reason for her to be wary of them. It gave her reason to hate them. And that was only Turians so I don't know why she's so hateful of the other ones.

[ADLegend21]

gamer_girl wrote...

But her grandfather surrendering on Shanxi doesn't really give much of a reason for her to be wary of them. It gave her reason to hate them. And that was only Turians so I don't know why she's so hateful of the other ones.

turians: lingering animosity between humans and turians despite public trades and such
Krogan: steretypes as walking timebombs of violence and such.

Hell when you meet Wrex he's surrounded by C-Sec officers. Garrus is formerly of the turian military and could be a spy for all we know, he's not but we don't know that the very first time we meet him. Would you let a former enemy, and an unknown party onthe most advanced warship in your navy? I think not. She doens't trust people willy nilly and I respect her for that. especially sinc ethe Galaxy is not a trusting place alot of the time.

even so that has nothing to do with her being opposed to homosexuality. If she wants Shepard, she wants Shepard, gender doesn't matter. That's how Ashley is.

[gamer_girl]

ADLegend21 wrote...

gamer_girl wrote...

But her grandfather surrendering on Shanxi doesn't really give much of a reason for her to be wary of them. It gave her reason to hate them. And that was only Turians so I don't know why she's so hateful of the other ones.

turians: lingering animosity between humans and turians despite public trades and such
Krogan: steretypes as walking timebombs of violence and such.

Hell when you meet Wrex he's surrounded by C-Sec officers. Garrus is formerly of the turian military and could be a spy for all we know, he's not but we don't know that the very first time we meet him. Would you let a former enemy, and an unknown party onthe most advanced warship in your navy? I think not. She doens't trust people willy nilly and I respect her for that. especially sinc ethe Galaxy is not a trusting place alot of the time.

even so that has nothing to do with her being opposed to homosexuality. If she wants Shepard, she wants Shepard, gender doesn't matter. That's how Ashley is.

I guess that's true. I was just making assumptions haha.

[ElitePinecone]

Unfortunately, given limited information, making assumptions is all most people can do. I'd be wary, though, of using modern concepts like "traditionalist"to describe someone 180 years into the future, especially when we know very little if nothing about social or sexual norms.

From an ME3 scene quoted in the New Yorker magazine with Jennifer Hale, and some tweets by ME writers, I'm thinking it's increasingly likely that both Ashley and Kaidan are s/s options.

[Rawles]

Abispa wrote...

While the s/s Shepard seemed to be simply cut off from s/s flirting, Jack and Samara were the only ones to put the brakes on themselves.

It's, at best, inaccurate (at worst, disingenuous) to class Jack's conversational wall as being equivalent to the incident with Samara. You can actually express romantic interest in Samara, talk to her about it, and have her explicitly reject your attempt to pursue a romance with her. Jack not wanting to engage in small talk anymore after a certain point, when sex or romance between herself and FemShep has never remotely been referenced, is in no way equivalent to the actual (abortive) romance path with Samara.

Again, the context of the Jack conversation is completely and entirely different, and you have to stretch to put it into an entirely different context in order to read that line as a statement of heterosexuality. A statement that is explicitly contrary to her previous statements about her relationship history.

Jack has had at least two relationships with women, but they were described as "selfish" and people who were simply using Jack for her abilities or because Jack has a history of using her sexuality as currency.

[...]

Her comment about her not being part of a "girls' club" was taken by me as meaning that now that she no longer fears being used or needs to sell herself for favors, she would rather be with a man. Yes, I suppose that a writer could easily write around this by explaining that I was wrong in my interpretation or that the magic of female Shepard may win her over, but I would be lying if I said that in her case s/s wouldn't bother me.

No, one relationship with a girl and her boyfriend was described as people using her for her abilities. Then she references having "been with" (i.e. had sex with) lots of people, implicitly including women, and THEN notes that she doesn't do committed relationships with anyone, male or female, because they "never work out."

How you've spun that into, "She was only ever with women because of her history of abuse and being taken advantage of and now that she's past that she sticks with peen," I haven't the faintest idea. But I do think it plays into some problematic tropes about homosexuality wherein people are only that way because they're in some way "broken" by abuse, hard lives, etc. and so when they've recovered, they go back to being properly heterosexual.

So, to review, Jack makes multiple explicit references to a romantic and sexual history in which she's at the very LEAST equal opportunity into women and men, and it requires placing an innocuous comment about not wanting to girltalk about her feelings into a context that literally does not exist in the game (flirtation between Jack and FemShep) to get something to contradict that textually.

There's not a single non-meta reason Jack wasn't available to FemShep. You can fanwank those meta reasons if you like, but that doesn't mean they actually make sense textually. And it certainly doesn't mean Jack being open to s/s romance in ME3 would somehow be unreasonable or contradictory.

[Sepewrath]

Abispa wrote...
For the record, I personally believe that many of the ME2 cast were being set up to be "bi" LIs and were shut down. I have had several "official" Bioware people deny this, but I remain unconvinced. Too many times I saw the Bioware conversations leading to... a dead end. While the s/s Shepard seemed to be simply cut off from s/s flirting, Jack and Samara were the only ones to put the brakes on themselves.

Well those dead ends are more than likely a product of the relationship limitations. In the first two games, its been romance, encyclopedia or nothing. They didn't do the friend thing, so that why things just come to an abrupt halt, I don't think it has anything to do with people being designed as S/S options.

And Jack's line about not being interested in a girls club, is definitely in reference to being friends with Shepard, because if you want to take that entire line in the context of romance, she says "I like you" which would leave the option open for a FemShep. But I don't think any of that dialogue, had any romantic implications, I simply take her history as a sign of bisexuality, something other characters are lacking.

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Unfortunately, given limited information, making assumptions is all most people can do. I'd be wary, though, of using modern concepts like "traditionalist"to describe someone 180 years into the future, especially when we know very little if nothing about social or sexual norms.

From an ME3 scene quoted in the New Yorker magazine with Jennifer Hale, and some tweets by ME writers, I'm thinking it's increasingly likely that both Ashley and Kaidan are s/s options.

What was the quote?

[ChaplainTappman]

AmyMac wrote...

But there's no indication that Ashley's super traditionalist. If you choose the paragon option in the conversation about religion, she says something along the lines of "space is so beautiful and majestic that it makes me believe in God," NOT "my parents brought me up to be religious and made me read the Bible" or something like that.
There are plenty of Christians in this world who are open and accepting of homosexuals (and probably even a few who are gay themselves).

For me, the thought doesn't come from her religion or her conservative views on nonhuman relations. It's more of a projection on my part of the ideas of servicemen/women who come from long lines of military families. I accept that it's a dangerous game making assumptions about society 180 years from now, but it's really all we can do. Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, and I'd frankly be surprised if one returning squadmate (say, Kaidan) was made a S/S LI, and Ash wasn't as well.

Rawles wrote...

Yes, but in context, again, "I like you but let's leave it at that" is pretty clearly about her emotional issues. She doesn't want to sit around and chat and be BFFs.

For her to reject romantic interest, FemShep would need to be able to express romantic interest in the first place. Which FemShep cannot do.

If you look at those lines through the context of Jack assuming heterosexuality on FemShep's part (which again, FemShep is not allowed to express anything else) it's clear that they're rebuffing a deeper platonic intimacy, not addressing anything sexual at all.

Like I said, it's intepretation. To you, she's clearly talking about a platonic relationship. To me, it's clearly her rejecting advances, real or perceived, by FemShep. Unless Bioware comes down from on high to give a definitive answer, we're both right and we're both wrong.

And your part about FemShep having to be able to express romantic interest for Jack to reject is provably false, both in the real world and in games made by Bioware. Alistair and Anders both express romantic interest in the player character without the player showing any interest. Awkward situations caused by "mixed signals" or misread intentions happen all the time, especially with people as emotionally young as Jack.

Keep in mind what Kelly says about Jack (h/t Abispa), that she doesn't understand her own motivations. She views sex as a tool, and imagines everyone else does as well. And she makes it very clear that at least one woman in her past has used sex as a means to take advantage of her. It makes sense that she'd assume Shepard, regardless of gender, would want to use her sexually. And just because she's had sex with women in the past doesn't mean she continues to, or that she considers herself a lesbian or bisexual. People experiment. It's equally as likely that she's decided she's straight as it is that she's decided she's lesbian or bi.

[ElitePinecone]

Awesomness wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
What was the quote?

My phone is pretty awful at selecting text, but this is the gist of it:

...and, in Mass Effect 2, whichever of the two was saved reappears to remonstrate with him or her. The result of that conversation which can play out in various ways, determines how the character of A/K wll interact with Shepard in Mass Effect 3.The new scene involved a tense exchange between Shepard and A/K. The first line of the scene was simple enough. "Let her/him go." but Hale had to say it multiple times, with different emphases, in order to communicate every possible state of alarm with which Shepard would react to A/K.
...
Two were growly, hateful takes, and two were hard, urgent takes.
...
She was then told that her lines had to be recorded as though she were running. "I have a question," Hale said. "It's pretty emotional for Shepard here. How big do you want it?" Walters explained that he wanted Shepard to seem like more of a "real character" in this game, a character who showed "his frailty."
...
"I want Shepard's vulnerability to come out, even though not every player will choose to experience it."
...
Hale's next line was "No!" Livingstone turned to Walters and asked, "Is this a panicked 'No' or an angry 'No'?"
"It's a" -Walters hesitated- "futile 'No.'"
Hale nodded, "No!", she said, stirringly, a moment later.
"More compassion," Livingstone said. "Less heightened."
Hales tried again, and her "No!" seemed to emerge from some alarmed, half-strangled place in her throat."

That, and a few tweets from Mac Walters in particular, are what I'm thinking points to s/s for the VS. I'd speculate further but it's really hard to type on this phone...

[/quo

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 24 août 2011 - 11:36 .

[brain_damage]

Two were growly, hateful takes, and two were hard, urgent takes.

Wait...so, four option? Out of the three in the dialogue wheel, we have one extra? /Paragon-neutral-renegade-???/ A romance option, perhaps?

[Wulfram]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
I always took that to be more of a comment on Anders rather than anything else. "I'd rather you not think of me that way," which if I remember correctly is exactly what Hawke says, is not particularly impolite.

It is when it's said in the same tone you might refer to something you found on the sole of your shoes.

[ElitePinecone]

brain_damage wrote...

Two were growly, hateful takes, and two were hard, urgent takes.

Wait...so, four option? Out of the three in the dialogue wheel, we have one extra? /Paragon-neutral-renegade-???/ A romance option, perhaps?

I was thinking more like two (one each, for different pronouns and names) for A/K as a friend or squadmate (growling at an enemy) and two for A/K as romance or at least with Shep having initiated one in ME3 (urgent and fearful).

It's a bit ambiguous. The article might've even meant she recorded the same thing twice and they'd only use one of them...

[gamer_girl]

@ChaplainTappman those are very good points. And yes assume is all we really have room to do seeing as we don't have much info. So really neither is more right than the other.