25715 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Hopefully one was spoken with uncontrolled lust. "NO Kaidan, I will take you here & now!"

[Rawles]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Like I said, it's intepretation. To you, she's clearly talking about a platonic relationship. To me, it's clearly her rejecting advances, real or perceived, by FemShep. Unless Bioware comes down from on high to give a definitive answer, we're both right and we're both wrong.

That would be a more convincing argument if there were no other information available besides the single "I like you; let's leave it at that" exchange. On its own it, it could be ambiguous enough. But as I've already gone over Jack expresses a sexual history that gives equal weight to romantic/sexual attraction to men and women (and the "boyfriend or girlfriend" comment is clearly one of present tense, that is, either is currently equally likely or unlikely) and there is no romantic or sexual undertone to her conversations with FemShep on either side, which makes the idea that she's professing staunch heterosexuality much less logically likely than it being a rebuffing of a deeper platonic relationship.

You're saying she assumes FemShep wants to use her sexually, but you're ignoring that she has dialogue with ManShep where she actually suspects that then, guess what, explicitly addresses it. She asks DudeShep if he's eyeing her up. She does not ask FemShep this. You can make up reasons for it that support your position, but they're never going to be more simple or rationally likely than the idea that it's because she doesn't think FemShep is.

Alistair and Anders both express romantic interest in the player character without the player showing any interest.

And in both of these instances the game mechanics actually have the expression of interest as an OPTION even if the player does not choose to take advantage of it. I'm not arguing that because a person does not express interest someone else can't read interest into it. I'm talking about the way that the game frames the conversations and interactions as influenced by what is allowed and what is not. Alistair expresses interest in a female Warden and Anders expresses interest in Hawke because, game mechanics-wise, it's actually possible for reciprocal interest to exist.

To state this another way: it is clear to me that due to the mechanics of the game Jack is written as approaching both DudeShep and FemShep from the position that they are heterosexual. Which is consistent with the aforementioned heterosexist leanings of the game because DudeShep is always assumed to be heterosexual and FemShep is generally assumed to be heterosexual with an asari clause. Which frankly, has usually played less to me like the primary intention was the option to play FemShep as queer than it has the expression of a combination of propagating Asari Are Universally Irresistable and them not bothering to alter a lot of incidental things that were clearly written with a male Shepard in mind. But that's a whole other conversation.

Modifié par Rawles, 24 août 2011 - 06:34 .

[silentassassin264]

Jack's closing comments to femshep about lets leave it at that because she isn't a girls club type of person seemed pretty clear to me it was not a romance she was cutting off but just the stop by a chat stuff. As Rawles pointed out, Jack never suspects a femshep is interested in her and she would have pointed it out if she did as the whole maleshep thing as evidence. Femshep also has no option to prove Jack wrong and express any interest so the whole Jack-Femshep relationship is stuck in heterosexual girl talk so to speak. Jack was saying at the end that she didn't do the whole hang out with other girls and chat and that is why she said she wasn't a girls club person.

Here is hoping that that gets fixed so she and femshep can share some girly fun as Isabela suggested.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 24 août 2011 - 08:09 .

[ChaplainTappman]

Okay, Rawles. You win. It's a well known fact that there's no room for interpretation in a matter that has no official answer. Obviously Jack's not rebuffing perceived advances. Obviously she's talking about a platonic friendship with FemShep. That's patently obvious, and anyone who suggests otherwise is mentally deficient and should be euthanized.

[MACharlie1]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Okay, Rawles. You win. It's a well known fact that there's no room for interpretation in a matter that has no official answer. Obviously Jack's not rebuffing perceived advances. Obviously she's talking about a platonic friendship with FemShep. That's patently obvious, and anyone who suggests otherwise is mentally deficient and should be euthanized.

I have honestly never heard anyone refer to a "girls club" as a sexual sort of thing. Just like I've never heard of a "mens club" to be a sexual sort of thing or at least a homosexual sort of thing...girls club in mainstream America typically refers to a club (as in a group of girls who share a common interest) of exclusively girls doing girl things like gossiping, and enforcing the "no boys allowed! :P". 

Seriously. Do a google search on girls club. Nothing refers to any sort of homosexual tendencies. I think you are thinking of a "club" like a bar. Not as in "the babysitters club!". 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 24 août 2011 - 08:44 .

[Nyreen]

Just curious, who do you guys think will be swingin' both ways this time around?

[Rawles]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Okay, Rawles. You win. It's a well known fact that there's no room for interpretation in a matter that has no official answer. Obviously Jack's not rebuffing perceived advances. Obviously she's talking about a platonic friendship with FemShep. That's patently obvious, and anyone who suggests otherwise is mentally deficient and should be euthanized.

My only argument is that the interpretation that she's rebuffing romantic advances from FemShep doesn't make anywhere near as much simple, logical sense as the interpretation that she's saying she doesn't want to girltalk anymore when considering the context of FemShep's interactions with Jack, comparisons to her interactions with DudeShep, and Jack's stated romantic and sexual preferences.

If you don't want to continue the conversation you don't have to. That's fine. But being hyperbolic and then sarcastic about arguments I didn't actually make and inferring insults I didn't actually level isn't doing anyone any favors.

Celestina wrote...

Just curious, who do you guys think will be swingin' both ways this time around?

I think the VS. Outside of that, no idea.

Modifié par Rawles, 24 août 2011 - 09:11 .

[Chun Hei]

MACharlie1 wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Okay, Rawles. You win. It's a well known fact that there's no room for interpretation in a matter that has no official answer. Obviously Jack's not rebuffing perceived advances. Obviously she's talking about a platonic friendship with FemShep. That's patently obvious, and anyone who suggests otherwise is mentally deficient and should be euthanized.

I have honestly never heard anyone refer to a "girls club" as a sexual sort of thing. Just like I've never heard of a "mens club" to be a sexual sort of thing or at least a homosexual sort of thing...girls club in mainstream America typically refers to a club (as in a group of girls who share a common interest) of exclusively girls doing girl things like gossiping, and enforcing the "no boys allowed! :P". 

Seriously. Do a google search on girls club. Nothing refers to any sort of homosexual tendencies. I think you are thinking of a "club" like a bar. Not as in "the babysitters club!". 

Actually "I am not a member of the girls' club" or "boys' club" is a pretty popular "gentle" turn down of a s/s proposition here in the American midwest. I have used it myself a couple of times.

[ChaplainTappman]

Rawles wrote...

My only argument is that the interpretation that she's rebuffing romantic advances from FemShep doesn't make anywhere near as much rational, logical sense as the interpretation that she's saying she doesn't want to girltalk anymore when considering the context of FemShep's interactions with Jack, comparisons to her interactions with DudeShep, and Jack's stated romantic and sexual preferences.

If you don't want to continue the conversation you don't have to. That's fine. But being hyperbolic and then sarcastic about arguments I didn't actually make and inferring insults I didn't actually level isn't doing anyone any favors.

Fair point, I apologize. I projected my frustration about something unrelated (pretty sure my 360 is dead) onto the conversation. I'm sorry for that.

The conversations that BroShep and FemShep have with Jack, prior to the post-loyalty mission convo, are identical, with the one exception of the renegade romance. And the replacement scene with FemShep is fairly ambigious to me, as well. It starts out the same, except Jack doesn't proposition FemShep. You can respond however you want, and Jack's response to that is something along the lines of "what you want will come out eventually." Again, to me, it's ambigious. I don't think it's irrational or illogical to make the assumption that Jack sees Shepard, regardless of gender, as seeking to use sex to manipulate Jack. I get the impression that Jack was originally a bisexual character, in fitting with her past, but that was cut at a relatively early stage.

Again, until someone from Bioware chimes in and gives us a definitive answer, we're both right and we're both wrong. We're looking at the same evidence, in the same context, and reading it differently. It's akin to discussing "what that cloud looks like" rather than "what's 2 plus 2."

Celestina wrote...

Just curious, who do you guys think will be swingin' both ways this time around?

Ditto Rawles. I think the VS, and that's probably it. Possibly Vega. While I'm glad Bioware isn't (hopefully) going to back down on the issue of real S/S romances, I think they'll also hedge their bets.

Modifié par ChaplainTappman, 24 août 2011 - 09:32 .

[lazuli]

Celestina wrote...

Just curious, who do you guys think will be swingin' both ways this time around?

I expect that Liara, Vega, Kaidan, and Ashley will be available as romantic interests for both male and female Shepards.  If Samara returns, this time as a full romance option, then of course she will be available as well.

[Rawles]

@ChaplainTappman

Agree to disagree! I do think Jack was likely originally envisioned as a bisexual love interest and then they backpedalled, though.

And I'm sorry to hear that about your 360. I've had to send mine in three different times. :/

re: potential LIs

My one major personal wish for ME3 is a full-fledged non-Liara (preferably even non-asari) f/f love interest. I feel like it's not overall as dire as the total lack of m/m LIs period, but it's bothered me for years that the one woman my FemSheps can have a full romance with is literally my least favorite of all the female squadmembers (and many secondary characters). I mean, I don't hate Liara or anything and I have a Liaramance save and all, but I would have preferred almost anyone else.

But then I guess when only given a single option, if you're not gung-ho for it, you're screwed.

[ChaplainTappman]

Rawles wrote...

@ChaplainTappman

Agree to disagree! I do think Jack was likely originally envisioned as a bisexual love interest and then they backpedalled, though.

And I'm sorry to hear that about your 360. I've had to send mine in three different times. :/

re: potential LIs

My one major personal wish for ME3 is a full-fledged non-Liara (preferably even non-asari) f/f love interest. I feel like it's not overall as dire as the total lack of m/m LIs period, but it's bothered me for years that the one woman my FemSheps can have a full romance with is literally my least favorite of all the female squadmembers (and many secondary characters). I mean, I don't hate Liara or anything and I have a Liaramance save and all, but I would have preferred almost anyone else.

But then I guess when only given a single option, if you're not gung-ho for it, you're screwed.

By "full-fledged," do you mean an exclusively F/F LI, or just a female character that you can pursue a romance with playing as FemShep? Just curious. Also, given the option, which existing character would you pursue a F/F romance with?

[Abispa]

I find it easier to think of who probably WON'T be s/s. Right off the back I take off all the ME2-only Suicide Squad members since it's apparent that they will have only limited screen time in ME3 because they could be dead. Garrus and Tali could be dead as well, and I only give them a slightly higher chance of being s/s options since they've been around for two games and it looks like Garrus, at least, will be available for most of the game. So far only the VS, Liara, and Vega appear to be full-time members and the most likely s/s candidates.

Strictly my opinion based on limited information. In theory, however, I am open to EVERY LI being available as a s/s option, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Modifié par Abispa, 24 août 2011 - 10:36 .

[MACharlie1]

Chun Hei wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Okay, Rawles. You win. It's a well known fact that there's no room for interpretation in a matter that has no official answer. Obviously Jack's not rebuffing perceived advances. Obviously she's talking about a platonic friendship with FemShep. That's patently obvious, and anyone who suggests otherwise is mentally deficient and should be euthanized.

I have honestly never heard anyone refer to a "girls club" as a sexual sort of thing. Just like I've never heard of a "mens club" to be a sexual sort of thing or at least a homosexual sort of thing...girls club in mainstream America typically refers to a club (as in a group of girls who share a common interest) of exclusively girls doing girl things like gossiping, and enforcing the "no boys allowed! :P". 

Seriously. Do a google search on girls club. Nothing refers to any sort of homosexual tendencies. I think you are thinking of a "club" like a bar. Not as in "the babysitters club!". 

Actually "I am not a member of the girls' club" or "boys' club" is a pretty popular "gentle" turn down of a s/s proposition here in the American midwest. I have used it myself a couple of times.

Really. That is interesting....maybe we should find a random Canadian and ask them since I'm American North East. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 24 août 2011 - 10:40 .

[Rawles]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

By "full-fledged," do you mean an exclusively F/F LI, or just a female character that you can pursue a romance with playing as FemShep? Just curious. Also, given the option, which existing character would you pursue a F/F romance with?

The latter. I was just using full-fledged to distinguish between a Kelly-style side thing and the "main" love interests.

As for which existing character I would romance... pretty much most of them? A lot would depend on how it was written. If you want which one(s) I'd prefer above others, I'd probably go for Miranda or Kasumi. I RP a FemShep who's been carrying a torch for Ashley. I also love Samara, but I would be conflicted about a romance with her because I both like and respect the reasons that she turned Shepard down.

[Sepewrath]

Celestina wrote...

Just curious, who do you guys think will be swingin' both ways this time around?

Well if people have it their way, I would say, everyone in the galaxy, dogs, cats, houseplants, Harbinger, penguins, hats, the Declaration of Independence, Qunari and sneakers.

[ChaplainTappman]

Rawles wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

By "full-fledged," do you mean an exclusively F/F LI, or just a female character that you can pursue a romance with playing as FemShep? Just curious. Also, given the option, which existing character would you pursue a F/F romance with?

The latter. I was just using full-fledged to distinguish between a Kelly-style side thing and the "main" love interests.

As for which existing character I would romance... pretty much most of them? A lot would depend on how it was written. If you want which one(s) I'd prefer above others, I'd probably go for Miranda or Kasumi. I RP a FemShep who's been carrying a torch for Ashley. I also love Samara, but I would be conflicted about a romance with her because I both like and respect the reasons that she turned Shepard down.

Ah. That's what I thought, but I'm a curious person. I would like to see a character or characters who are exclusively S/S LIs. If only to infuriate the idiots.

I'd never seen, until just now, the Samara "romance" scene. I knew it existed, I'd just never seen it. I find her offputting, for some reason. Assuming I can get my 360 functional in the next six months, I plan on setting up a FemShep holding out for Ash, myself. Though that has more to do with the fact that, were she real, I'd probably be in love with her. I have a hard time separating myself and the character in games like these; I've never played as a Renegade for the same reason.

[Abispa]

Sepewrath wrote...

Celestina wrote...

Just curious, who do you guys think will be swingin' both ways this time around?

Well if people have it their way, I would say, everyone in the galaxy, dogs, cats, houseplants, Harbinger, penguins, hats, the Declaration of Independence, Qunari and sneakers.

I can't believe you forgor Urz. Damn you.

[Time4Tiddy]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Ah. That's what I thought, but I'm a curious person. I would like to see a character or characters who are exclusively S/S LIs. If only to infuriate the idiots.

I look forward to the days when a major companion in a Bioware game will be gay no matter what orientation your PC has.  I still think Leliana should have a been a full on lesbian, based on her backstory, and Anders should have been full on gay, based on his.  It's not like people don't complain about the "ninjamancing" anyway.

[Time4Tiddy]

Ferris95 wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

I look forward to the days when a major companion in a Bioware game will be gay no matter what orientation your PC has.  I still think Leliana should have a been a full on lesbian, based on her backstory, and Anders should have been full on gay, based on his.  It's not like people don't complain about the "ninjamancing" anyway.

I could see Leliana being a lesbian, romancing her with a guy just felt off. As for Anders, as much as it fits in for DA2 Anders, DA:A Anders kept flirting with the women. Unless he was in the most securely fortified closet known to man, I can't see him not liking the ladies.

Off topic a bit, but I just realized none of my DA2 romances were straight. Just a fun fact.

Well he does flirt a lot in DA:A, but considering that he was in some kind of long-term relationship with Karl, and you find out about it in Act 1, which is less than a year after the death of the Archdemon, the suggested retcon is that he must have been dating Karl either before or during his time with the Warden in Aramanthine.

[bleetman]

Even if Anders were completely homosexual, rather than bi-sexual, I'd have a hard time seeing him rejecting a female Hawke. The man's an emotional wreck and clings to her like a drowning man to a life-raft, he's not about to turn someone away based on whether they're an in-y or an out-y.

Modifié par bleetman, 25 août 2011 - 03:35 .

[jlb524]

Leliana could have been a lesbian based on her backstory but she could also be bisexual.

Both are plausible (they went with bisexual of course).

I just don't get the 'backstory argument' for sexuality.

[Zjarcal]

jlb524 wrote...

I just don't get the 'backstory argument' for sexuality.

Same.

Never have, never will.