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[ElitePinecone]

Swords and Lasers wrote...
My thing is, other than the trolls and haters purposely trying to cause agruments, the forum was moving just like this one. Should this one be Locked. NO. But neither should've the other.

If I had to venture a guess, a new thread about religion in Mass Effect would attract *a lot* more off-topic discussion and potential trolls than something like this. 

Nearly 400 pages deters a lot of people from posting - except for the occasional illiterate and inarticulate rants about teh gheys or Garrus - and the conversation is generally on topic. 

I don't think the Bioware moderators have any particular ideological agenda (aside from wielding a banhammer with egalitarian justice); they just want a calm forum environment that doesn't erupt into chaos every few minutes. This thread is long-lasting and relatively stable; there's no way of knowing what a heated discussion on religion could spark. I'd argue that of the two topics more people have an interest in attacking and defending religion, arguments about homosexuality might stem from religion occasionally, but bringing up religious debates involves issues that are closer to the hearts of many more people. 

Unfair? Probably, but I don't blame them for shutting down a topic when it could turn toxic quickly. 

[vorianxavier]

Spatchmo wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

I'm also sure they didn't mean bad too. However, is the ME clearly biased in heteronormative male fantasies and subconscious views on some things? Yes.

If it's not too much trouble, could we try to refrain from using words like "heteronormative"? It reminds me of the way some people with aspergers choose to refer to people without aspergers as "neurotypical". There's definitely a negative connotation to it, like somehow being gay or having aspergers makes someone a better person because now the "normal" people have labels, too!

"Heteronormative" isn't a label that's placed on people directly, but on how people see the world and talk/write about it. A heteronormative view basically means the subconscious assumption that everyone is straight until proven otherwise, and being gay is unusual. When characters in ME say lines that imply Shepard is straight, and I'm playing a GayShep, it really does bother me, I can't help it.

[ChaplainTappman]

vorianxavier wrote...

"Heteronormative" isn't a label that's placed on people directly, but on how people see the world and talk/write about it. A heteronormative view basically means the subconscious assumption that everyone is straight until proven otherwise, and being gay is unusual. When characters in ME say lines that imply Shepard is straight, and I'm playing a GayShep, it really does bother me, I can't help it.

The problem, though, is that "heteronormative," like (to use Spatchmo's example) "neurotypical," immediately forces an us/them mentality. Describing someone's mindset as "heteronormative" is a negative value judgement. You're derogating them for holding a veiwpoint that is, to my mind, less about homophobia and more about statistics. The majority of human beings are straight. That's unlikely to change in the future. It's not unreasonable for someone (today or in 2185) to assume that a given person is straight. That assumption, in and of itself, is not derogatory. It's math. I'm not saying it's wrong to be bothered by it, but I am saying that it's wrong to assume a judgement behind that assumption and adopt an us/them mentality because of it.

Also, 100% off topic, but I'd guess that the vast majority of people using the term "neurotypical" don't actually have Asperger's. They're trolls who've discovered that saying they have Asperger's is a great excuse for acting like a tool.

[lietk12]

I think there's a stronger emphasis in the use of "heteronormativity" that the attitude not only treats heterosexuality as the most common or the majority, but also treats the "other" as unfavorable (in the sense of the term "normative" as applied to philosophy/social science)--going more for the connotations of "abnormal" than of "uncommon".

Modifié par lietk12, 31 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Well I am heteronormative (if that's the word). Why? Probably because I met only one gay person in my life (that I know of) and hundreds of straight people and I am surrounded with those every day. That's why when I meet someone new,I assume they are straight until proven otherwise. I don't think that's necessarilly a bad thing or that it means something. It's just assuming according to what you are used to. Kinda like assuming someone is right-handed.

[Trevbo]

See in my experience heteronormative is not usually a term that is placed on a person, but usually on a society, like the terms patriarchal or white supremacist. (I have a sociology prof who loves saying our society is a heteronormative, white supremacist, patriarchy, but that isn't really relevant to this discussion).

The point we can say a show is heteronormative because it does not include any gay characters, or if it does they are all very stereotypical, clearly "othering" them (or making them feel outside the accepted realm of the norm). Our society is still fairly heteronormative, and most of our media is the same but their are some exceptions. Mass Effect hasn't exactly proven itself to be one of them. At least not yet. ME3 might redeem the whole franchise in that regard.

It is not a word that tries to raise queer people (i use that term to include the whole LGBTQ spectrum, not as a slight as some feel it is) above straight people, but used to point out the opposite situation when queer people are written off, ignored, or pigeonholed.

An individual isn't heteronormative, as much as they can have a heteronormative mindset, which to me is more than assuming everyone is straight which isn't necessarily a problem ( I do it a lot my self, pysching myself out from asking other guys out with a "Well he is probably straight..."), but more about labelling straight as normal, and gay as deviant or strange. It is clear gay is less common, but that doesn't mean gay can't also be normal.

Or at least that is how I see it. Some may use and feel about the word differently than I do.

[Abispa]

Wow, that's a lot of the same Kaidan profile pics showing up in succession. We don't want to give the impression that all male s/s LI fans look alike.

[Abispa]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Well I am heteronormative (if that's the word). Why? Probably because I met only one gay person in my life (that I know of) and hundreds of straight people and I am surrounded with those every day. That's why when I meet someone new,I assume they are straight until proven otherwise. I don't think that's necessarilly a bad thing or that it means something. It's just assuming according to what you are used to. Kinda like assuming someone is right-handed.

It's okay to make the assumption a person is straight so long as its not a value judgment. Saying, "Wow! You're the first gay football player I've ever met!" shouldn't be offensive, but something along the lines of, "Whoa! Aren't you gay guys too delicate to play football?" should be avoided.

[Radahldo]

It would be hot if everyone looked like Kaidan

[Ghost Warrior]

Abispa wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Well I am heteronormative (if that's the word). Why? Probably because I met only one gay person in my life (that I know of) and hundreds of straight people and I am surrounded with those every day. That's why when I meet someone new,I assume they are straight until proven otherwise. I don't think that's necessarilly a bad thing or that it means something. It's just assuming according to what you are used to. Kinda like assuming someone is right-handed.

It's okay to make the assumption a person is straight so long as its not a value judgment. Saying, "Wow! You're the first gay football player I've ever met!" shouldn't be offensive, but something along the lines of, "Whoa! Aren't you gay guys too delicate to play football?" should be avoided.

Yeah,but there is just one thing. All football players are gay.

[jlb524]

Heteronormativity is much more than just assuming anyone you meet is straight and it is a social/cultural bias that favors/promotes heterosexuality.

It's creating a heirarchy out of sexualities and placing heterosexuality (relationships between a man-gendered male and a woman-gendered female...ideally in nuclear families) at the top and treating this as the 'ideal' while all the others are lesser because they don't adhere to that model.

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options or they don't like the idea of possibly sharing an LI with others who will have a gay/lesbian relationship with them.

[Volus Warlord]

jlb524 wrote...

Heteronormativity is much more than just assuming anyone you meet is straight and it is a social/cultural bias that favors/promotes heterosexuality.

It's creating a heirarchy out of sexualities and placing heterosexuality (relationships between a man-gendered male and a woman-gendered female...ideally in nuclear families) at the top and treating this as the 'ideal' while all the others are lesser because they don't adhere to that model.

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options or they don't like the idea of possibly sharing an LI with others who will have a gay/lesbian relationship with them.

I am obliged to agree to whatever you say and be very helpful.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:17 .

[Ghost Warrior]

jlb524 wrote...

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options

"Deserve" is the wrong word,it's just considered more realistic because heterosexuality is much more common in today's world,so most people assume that it's the same in ME universe since it hasn't been said otherwise.

And you gotta admit that all of the characters suddenly becoming available to both sexes would be more than unbelievable.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[syllogi]

jlb524 wrote...

Heteronormativity is much more than just assuming anyone you meet is straight and it is a social/cultural bias that favors/promotes heterosexuality.

It's creating a heirarchy out of sexualities and placing heterosexuality (relationships between a man-gendered male and a woman-gendered female...ideally in nuclear families) at the top and treating this as the 'ideal' while all the others are lesser because they don't adhere to that model.

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options or they don't like the idea of possibly sharing an LI with others who will have a gay/lesbian relationship with them.

Well, people who engage in same sex relations have cooties, that's a scientific fact.  Straight people have a reason to be afraid. 

Seriously, though, it's very odd, this is a game where you can make a hideously deformed, butt ugly character, and have your LI tell you that you're beautiful or handsome, but it's immersion breaking or bad writing for that same LI to possibly be attracted to the PC no matter the gender.  I don't get it.

[ladyvader]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If I had to venture a guess, a new thread about religion in Mass Effect would attract *a lot* more off-topic discussion and potential trolls than something like this. 

There is a thread about praying in ME3 in the general topic subsection and that thread was warned to keep real life relgion out of it or it was going to get locked.  I'm surprised Woo didn't lock it then.  It was getting sorta ugly.

[Ghost Warrior]

TeenZombie wrote...



Seriously, though, it's very odd, this is a game where you can make a hideously deformed, butt ugly character, and have your LI tell you that you're beautiful or handsome

Well that's both sad and funny at the same time. Maybe your Li got shot in the head one time too many.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Volus Warlord]

TeenZombie wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Heteronormativity is much more than just assuming anyone you meet is straight and it is a social/cultural bias that favors/promotes heterosexuality.

It's creating a heirarchy out of sexualities and placing heterosexuality (relationships between a man-gendered male and a woman-gendered female...ideally in nuclear families) at the top and treating this as the 'ideal' while all the others are lesser because they don't adhere to that model.

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options or they don't like the idea of possibly sharing an LI with others who will have a gay/lesbian relationship with them.

Well, people who engage in same sex relations have cooties, that's a scientific fact.  Straight people have a reason to be afraid. 

Seriously, though, it's very odd, this is a game where you can make a hideously deformed, butt ugly character, and have your LI tell you that you're beautiful or handsome, but it's immersion breaking or bad writing for that same LI to possibly be attracted to the PC no matter the gender.  I don't get it.

Hideously deformed is a subjective statement.

[Tommy6860]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options

"Deserve" is the wrong word,it's just considered more realistic because heterosexuality is much more common in today's world,so most people assume that it's the same in ME universe since it hasn't been said otherwise.

And you gotta admit that all of the characters suddenly becoming available to both sexes would be more than unbelievable.

Nope, you're mixing static societal norms with that of people having no choice in their orientation. If people could be totally honest without negative reactions, you'd see there are far more people than you think who cross over in sexuality.

+100 for jlb524

[syllogi]

Volus Warlord wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Heteronormativity is much more than just assuming anyone you meet is straight and it is a social/cultural bias that favors/promotes heterosexuality.

It's creating a heirarchy out of sexualities and placing heterosexuality (relationships between a man-gendered male and a woman-gendered female...ideally in nuclear families) at the top and treating this as the 'ideal' while all the others are lesser because they don't adhere to that model.

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options or they don't like the idea of possibly sharing an LI with others who will have a gay/lesbian relationship with them.

Well, people who engage in same sex relations have cooties, that's a scientific fact.  Straight people have a reason to be afraid. 

Seriously, though, it's very odd, this is a game where you can make a hideously deformed, butt ugly character, and have your LI tell you that you're beautiful or handsome, but it's immersion breaking or bad writing for that same LI to possibly be attracted to the PC no matter the gender.  I don't get it.

Hideously deformed is a subjective statement.

Okay, let's call it "symmetrically challenged."

[Volus Warlord]

TeenZombie wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Heteronormativity is much more than just assuming anyone you meet is straight and it is a social/cultural bias that favors/promotes heterosexuality.

It's creating a heirarchy out of sexualities and placing heterosexuality (relationships between a man-gendered male and a woman-gendered female...ideally in nuclear families) at the top and treating this as the 'ideal' while all the others are lesser because they don't adhere to that model.

I think one example of heteronormative bias shows up in arguments against having all the LIs be open to both genders. It's almost as if some feel heterosexual PCs deserve more options or they don't like the idea of possibly sharing an LI with others who will have a gay/lesbian relationship with them.

Well, people who engage in same sex relations have cooties, that's a scientific fact.  Straight people have a reason to be afraid. 

Seriously, though, it's very odd, this is a game where you can make a hideously deformed, butt ugly character, and have your LI tell you that you're beautiful or handsome, but it's immersion breaking or bad writing for that same LI to possibly be attracted to the PC no matter the gender.  I don't get it.

Hideously deformed is a subjective statement.

Okay, let's call it "symmetrically challenged."

Haha. Ugly Shepard continues to haunt us.

Still though, appearance is not exactly a paralell with sexuality.

[Ghost Warrior]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Nope, you're mixing static societal norms with that of people having no choice in their orientation. If people could be totally honest without negative reactions, you'd see there are far more people than you think who cross over in sexuality.

There is definitely more of such people than they like to admit,but I believe that it's still not very common. Of course,that's just an assumption. And I am not saying that it's imposible for someone on the crew to be bi,it's far from impossible. But everyone?

[syllogi]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Haha. Ugly Shepard continues to haunt us.

Still though, appearance is not exactly a paralell with sexuality.

My point is that it could be considered immersion breaking that anyone at all would want Ugly Shepard, much less every female he encounters.  If characters Shepard has already met suddenly find him/her attractive, despite not showing signs of attraction in previous games, is that *more* unbelievable than Ugly Shepard getting some?

[FoxHound109]

Been gone for a few days...this a long shot, but: any news?

[Ghost Warrior]

TeenZombie wrote...

My point is that it could be considered immersion breaking that anyone at all would want Ugly Shepard, much less every female he encounters.  If characters Shepard has already met suddenly find him/her attractive, despite not showing signs of attraction in previous games, is that *more* unbelievable than Ugly Shepard getting some?

I can't believe you.

Ugly people have sex too.

FoxHound109 wrote...

Been gone for a few days...this a long shot, but: any news?

No,nothing.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:37 .

[shepskisaac]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

There is definitely more of such people than they like to admit,but I believe that it's still not very common. Of course,that's just an assumption. And I am not saying that it's imposible for someone on the crew to be bi,it's far from impossible. But everyone?

Not impossible per see, just as it's not impossible they could be all left-handed. But it is of course extremmmmmly unlikely.