25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

TeenZombie wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Haha. Ugly Shepard continues to haunt us.

Still though, appearance is not exactly a paralell with sexuality.

My point is that it could be considered immersion breaking that anyone at all would want Ugly Shepard, much less every female he encounters.  If characters Shepard has already met suddenly find him/her attractive, despite not showing signs of attraction in previous games, is that *more* unbelievable than Ugly Shepard getting some?

How to explain...

Ugly Shepard is an anomaly.. something that was never intended to happen. Something a fan did out of.. some desire to create Ugly Shepard.

Same Sex romances are in there by design. They're there (or will be there) because Bioware put them there. A studio decision rather than some fan in his basement with too much time on his hands.

So, because Ugly is an anomaly, Ugly Shepard is easy to ignore; Ugly Shepard really isn't immersion breaking because it is a 1/100000 fan-created circumstance.

Same Sex romances are much harder to ignore because they were added by the developers, will be there 100%, and essentially forces the fan to filter the unwanted material. Immersion breaking? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it does seem like it could be very.. much a hassle depending on how Bioware handles it.

[Ghost Warrior]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

There is definitely more of such people than they like to admit,but I believe that it's still not very common. Of course,that's just an assumption. And I am not saying that it's imposible for someone on the crew to be bi,it's far from impossible. But everyone?

Not impossible per see, just as it's not impossible they could be all left-handed. But it is of course extremmmmmly unlikely.

Well yeah. I just don't think you emphasized EXTREMMMMMMMMELY enough.

[Blacklash93]

I honestly don't get what's wrong about heteronormativity. It's a natural social bias that has existed since the dawn of our species. Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons. You may feel left out sometimes compared to the majority, but that is simply a price that the few must pay, decreed by the forces that be.

Realistically, we should consider ourselves lucky to be catered to at all. It's not about who's more deserving, but who's more profitable. Heteros are obviously the main demographic while we'll always just be something on the side because of that. There's no changing it, so it's nothing to get upset about. If you're in a minority, no matter how vocal, you're never going to be treated equally to the majority. That's just the reality of things.

But that's also the beauty of it. We made our voice and frustrations heard and that's what's paving the way to further inclusivness. We should be very happy with what we've accomplished with Bioware.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I honestly don't get what's wrong about heteronormativity. It's a natural social bias that has existed since the dawn of our species. Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons. You may feel left out sometimes compared to the majority, but that is simply a price that the few must pay, decreed by the forces that be.

Realistically, we should consider ourselves lucky to be catered to at all. It's not about who's more deserving, but who's more profitable. Heteros are obviously the main demographic while we'll always just be something on the side because of that. There's no changing it, so it's nothing to get upset about. If you're in a minority, no matter how vocal, you're never going to be treated equally to the majority. That's just the reality of things.

When it comes to catering,majority actually supports S/S in ME3. Majority on these forums. But I agree with the rest of your post.

[Tommy6860]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I honestly don't get what's wrong about heteronormativity. It's a natural social bias that has existed since the dawn of our species. Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons. You may feel left out sometimes compared to the majority, but that is simply a price that the few must pay, decreed by the forces that be.

So, nature works on a directive? That's not even funny, even if ignoring it from a scientific POV.

Realistically, we should consider ourselves lucky to be catered to at all. It's not about who's more deserving, but who's more profitable. Heteros are obviously the main demographic while we'll always just be something on the side because of that. There's no changing it, so it's nothing to get upset about. If you're in a minority, no matter how vocal, you're never going to be treated equally to the majority. That's just the reality of things.

Funny though, you say that as if it is acceptable thinking, when it isn't.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:55 .

[Volus Warlord]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I honestly don't get what's wrong about heteronormativity. It's a natural social bias that has existed since the dawn of our species. Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons. You may feel left out sometimes compared to the majority, but that is simply a price that the few must pay, decreed by the forces that be.

So, nature works on a directive? That's not even funny, even if ignoring it from a scientific POV.

Realistically, we should consider ourselves lucky to be catered to at all. It's not about who's more deserving, but who's more profitable. Heteros are obviously the main demographic while we'll always just be something on the side because of that. There's no changing it, so it's nothing to get upset about. If you're in a minority, no matter how vocal, you're never going to be treated equally to the majority. That's just the reality of things.

Funny though, you say that as if it is acceptable thinking, when it isn't.

Indeed. You should be held up on a pedastal, an example to all mankind of what the true way to live is.

[Blacklash93]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

When it comes to catering,majority actually supports S/S in ME3. Majority on these forums. But I agree with the rest of your post.

That's not the point. A specific piece of content will appeal to few others outside of its targeted demographic. Just because a third-party supports it doesn't mean it's any more worth including because that third-party will probably never involve themselves in that content. It's approval as far as Bioware is concerned and nothing more.

When I speak about who the majority and minority are, I'm talking about who will and who won't use certain content. Not who supports it.

[MACharlie1]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

When it comes to catering,majority actually supports S/S in ME3. Majority on these forums. But I agree with the rest of your post.

That's not the point. A specific piece of content will appeal to few others outside of its targeted demographic. Just because a third-party supports it doesn't mean it's any more worth including because that third-party will probably never involve themselves in that content. It's approval as far as Bioware is concerned and nothing more.

When I speak about who the majority and minority are, I'm talking about who will and who won't use certain content. Not who supports it.

*cough* Engineer *cough* 

[Volus Warlord]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

When it comes to catering,majority actually supports S/S in ME3. Majority on these forums. But I agree with the rest of your post.

That's not the point. A specific piece of content will appeal to few others outside of its targeted demographic. Just because a third-party supports it doesn't mean it's any more worth including because that third-party will probably never involve themselves in that content. It's approval as far as Bioware is concerned and nothing more.

When I speak about who the majority and minority are, I'm talking about who will and who won't use certain content. Not who supports it.

*cough* Engineer *cough* 

That's a terrible comparison..

[Blacklash93]

Tommy6860 wrote...
Funny though, you say that as if it is acceptable thinking, when it isn't.

Like it or not, it's true. The majority comes first.

[syllogi]

Volus Warlord wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Haha. Ugly Shepard continues to haunt us.

Still though, appearance is not exactly a paralell with sexuality.

My point is that it could be considered immersion breaking that anyone at all would want Ugly Shepard, much less every female he encounters.  If characters Shepard has already met suddenly find him/her attractive, despite not showing signs of attraction in previous games, is that *more* unbelievable than Ugly Shepard getting some?

How to explain...

Ugly Shepard is an anomaly.. something that was never intended to happen. Something a fan did out of.. some desire to create Ugly Shepard.

Same Sex romances are in there by design. They're there (or will be there) because Bioware put them there. A studio decision rather than some fan in his basement with too much time on his hands.

So, because Ugly is an anomaly, Ugly Shepard is easy to ignore; Ugly Shepard really isn't immersion breaking because it is a 1/100000 fan-created circumstance.

Same Sex romances are much harder to ignore because they were added by the developers, will be there 100%, and essentially forces the fan to filter the unwanted material. Immersion breaking? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it does seem like it could be very.. much a hassle depending on how Bioware handles it.

Everyone can make a ugly character who purchases the game, just like everyone can choose the gender of their character.  Just because the option isn't pursued as often (and you don't know the statistics -- maybe everyone but you has an Ugly Shepard save), doesn't mean it's not available.

I'm not saying you *can't* be uncomfortable with same sex romances, I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea.  But if the option is there, just like the option to make an ugly Shepard, it will not hurt your experience of the game, unless the writers are doing something wrong.

[Blacklash93]

Volus Warlord wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

*cough* Engineer *cough* 

That's a terrible comparison..

I think it's fair. Everybody supports it, but few use it. What makes including it worth the time and effort?

It's fanservice and I'm bloody glad that's something Bioware does.

[Ryzaki]

...I better have cloak on my infiltrator is all I"m saying.

[Tommy6860]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Funny though, you say that as if it is acceptable thinking, when it isn't.

Like it or not, it's true. The majority comes first.

And it's that poor rationization that keeps this faulty thinking going.
Firstly it isn't true, it is simple bigotry that keep this thinking
alive. If you can rationalize, you'd see the fallacy in that thinking.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 septembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[Volus Warlord]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

*cough* Engineer *cough* 

That's a terrible comparison..

I think it's fair. Everybody supports it, but few use it. What makes including it worth the time and effort?

It's fanservice and I'm bloody glad that's something Bioware does.

If Engineer was left out, there'd be a gap in the layouts.. Yeah, some people wouldn't notice, but heck, it'd be breaking their own setup.

SS romance is eh..... Nightmarish? Serves no real purpose in the game. Cheapens characters. Creates conflict amognst the fanbase. Doesn't really add anything of value. But the same could be said for romances as a whole. No purpose and ruthlessly overemphasized. Heck, they made a whole forum for it. But I digress.

[Blacklash93]

Tommy6860 wrote...

And it's that poor rationization that keeps this faulty thinking going.
Firstly it isn't true, it is simple bigotry that keep this thinking
alive. If you can rationalize, you'd see the fallacy in that thinking.

It's called neglect, not bigotry. No one is consciously ignoring us out of hate.

The've just got their mind on other things. Things that they can relate to more. Can you blame them for that?

[Volus Warlord]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Funny though, you say that as if it is acceptable thinking, when it isn't.

Like it or not, it's true. The majority comes first.

And it's that poor rationization that keeps this faulty thinking going.
Firstly it isn't true, it is simple bigotry that keep this thinking
alive. If you can rationalize, you'd see the fallacy in that thinking.

What is the alternative? Most first world societies are build around the majority-first least common denominator concept. 

You don't like what's going on. Fine. Propose what "should" happen.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 01 septembre 2011 - 02:35 .

[Blacklash93]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

*cough* Engineer *cough* 

That's a terrible comparison..

I think it's fair. Everybody supports it, but few use it. What makes including it worth the time and effort?

It's fanservice and I'm bloody glad that's something Bioware does.

If Engineer was left out, there'd be a gap in the layouts.. Yeah, some people wouldn't notice, but heck, it'd be breaking their own setup.

SS romance is eh..... Nightmarish? Serves no real purpose in the game. Cheapens characters. Creates conflict amognst the fanbase. Doesn't really add anything of value. But the same could be said for romances as a whole. No purpose and ruthlessly overemphasized. Heck, they made a whole forum for it. But I digress.

Few people play the engineer. A feature only adds to the game when people use it. I could say the Engineer has little purpose in the game because of that as well. Same goes for S/S romances.

And so what if Bioware was breaking their own setup? Would you dedicate hundreds of hours to a feature only a handful of people are going to use? How is that worth it? What makes engineer players so special that warrants so much effort when those resources could be put to use elsewhere? If Bioware didn't care for those fans they wouldn't have followed through with it for the entire trilogy.

It's all fanservice at the end of the day and we should all be grateful for it.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 septembre 2011 - 02:45 .

[Arik7]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Funny though, you say that as if it is acceptable thinking, when it isn't.

Like it or not, it's true. The majority comes first.

And it's that poor rationization that keeps this faulty thinking going.
Firstly it isn't true, it is simple bigotry that keep this thinking
alive. If you can rationalize, you'd see the fallacy in that thinking.

What is the alternative? Most first world societies are build around the majority-first least common denominator concept. 

You don't like what's going on. Fine. Propose what "should" happen.

It's usually third-world societies that revolve around majoritarian concepts such as an official religion / one main ethnic group, etc....  First world socities are generally founded upon priciples of equal rights for everyone, whether your are in the majority or in a minorty.

Modifié par Arik7, 01 septembre 2011 - 02:47 .

[Arik7]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

And it's that poor rationization that keeps this faulty thinking going.
Firstly it isn't true, it is simple bigotry that keep this thinking
alive. If you can rationalize, you'd see the fallacy in that thinking.

It's called neglect, not bigotry. No one is consciously ignoring us out of hate.

The've just got their mind on other things. Things that they can relate to more. Can you blame them for that?

If you think a significant portion of society doesn't HATE gays, you're clearly dellusional..... If everybody had your attitude of "eh, life isn't fair, accept it", the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement wouldn't get anywhere...

Modifié par Arik7, 01 septembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[Volus Warlord]

Arik7 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

And it's that poor rationization that keeps this faulty thinking going.
Firstly it isn't true, it is simple bigotry that keep this thinking
alive. If you can rationalize, you'd see the fallacy in that thinking.

It's called neglect, not bigotry. No one is consciously ignoring us out of hate.

The've just got their mind on other things. Things that they can relate to more. Can you blame them for that?

If you think a significant portion of society doesn't HATE gays, you're clearly dellusional..... If everybody had your attitude of "eh, life isn't fair, accept it", the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement wouldn't get anywhere...

Why do you equate the current gay movements with the civil rights movement? I don't see any "straights only" water fountatins anywhere.  It comes off as a bit.. pretentious.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 01 septembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[Blacklash93]

Arik7 wrote...
If everybody had your attitude of "eh, life isn't fair, accept it", the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement wouldn't get anywhere...

This is all about gays being represented in media. Is lack of representation bigotry? Do you really expect to be taken into equal consideration as heterosexuals when they are an infinitely more profitable demographic? Think about how business works.

[shepskisaac]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons.

But it also keeps homosexuality for good reasons.

Blacklash93 wrote...
Realistically, we should consider ourselves lucky to be catered to at all. It's not about who's more deserving, but who's more profitable. Heteros are obviously the main demographic while we'll always just be something on the side because of that. There's no changing it, so it's nothing to get upset about. If you're in a minority, no matter how vocal, you're never going to be treated equally to the majority. That's just the reality of things.

But that's also the beauty of it. We made our voice and frustrations heard and that's what's paving the way to further inclusivness. We should be very happy with what we've accomplished with Bioware.

But it's not just about "the gays". Where are male strip clubs with half-naked Drells for the female audience? Where are Jacob ass shots for the girls? The number of gay people in society obviously cannot match the number of straight people. But there are as many girls as boys on planet Earth. When I said heteronormative I also said male POV/fantasies that forgot about hetero people of the other gender - straight women. The heteronormative bias is not just about "the gays" in our culture, it's about male bias in general as well.

[Blacklash93]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Why do you equate the current gay movements with the civil rights movement? I don't see any "straights only" water fountatins anywhere.  It comes off as a bit.. pretentious.

There are some parallels. Both groups were fighting for acceptance and more opportunity in mainstream society. Fighting against discrimination, as well.

Of course gays were rarely as bad off as african-americans back then and the issue of sexuality is not quite the same as race, but the basic motivations of the movements are similar.

[Blacklash93]

IsaacShep wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons.

But it also keeps homosexuality for good reasons.

I never said it didn't. But that's another issue entirely.

But it's not just about "the gays". Where are male strip clubs with half-naked Drells for the female audience? Where are Jacob ass shots for the girls? The number of gay people in society obviously cannot match the number of straight people. But there are as many girls as boys on planet Earth. When I said heteronormative I also said male POV/fantasies that forgot about hetero people of the other gender - straight women. The heteronormative bias is not just about "the gays" in our culture, it's about male bias in general as well.

Most of the writing staff is compromised of heterosexual males who find female strip clubs and ass-shots appealing. I'm not going to blame them or claim discrimination for thinking mostly within their own mindset. Although I will remind them to be more inclusive in the future. Something we're all doing and succeeding at.