25715 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Most of the writing staff is compromised of heterosexual males who find female strip clubs and ass-shots appealing. I'm not going to blame them or claim discrimination for thinking mostly within their own mindset. Although I will remind them to be more inclusive in the future. Something we're all doing and succeeding at.

Neither will I. But they know it themselves, David Gaider said in the writing panel at Comic-Con that it's hard sometimes not to project the idea that the character is a male when writing a character that can be either, and how the presence of many female writers helps them avoid this mistake. So if they know it, they should make extra effort not to forget about it, since they know they just naturally and more prone to do so. Have more females on the team, or consult with them more if what is being created doesn't happen to cater to mostly to the straight & male audience. I mean, if they're serious about expanding the franchise's audience, what the easier way to increase the number of girls playing?

[Cutlass Jack]

Blacklash93 wrote...

That's not the point. A specific piece of content will appeal to few others outside of its targeted demographic. Just because a third-party supports it doesn't mean it's any more worth including because that third-party will probably never involve themselves in that content. It's approval as far as Bioware is concerned and nothing more.

When I speak about who the majority and minority are, I'm talking about who will and who won't use certain content. Not who supports it.

More content is more content. What's great about more content? Replay value. As a 'Third party' in this conversation, let me say that if the content is there, I'll want to do a playthrough that sees it. Assuming its well done.

Won't be on my first playthrough, since my Cannon shep has always been about Tali since the first game. or even my second, which would likely be my Femshep. But such options would give one hell of an incentive to do a third playthrough. And my wife would probably be visiting such content much, much sooner.


If these were games people only played once, I could see your point somewhat. But replay value gives it milage far beyond its 'targeted demographic.'

[lovgreno]

Blacklash93 wrote...
Realistically, we should consider ourselves lucky to be catered to at all. It's not about who's more deserving, but who's more profitable. Heteros are obviously the main demographic while we'll always just be something on the side because of that. There's no changing it, so it's nothing to get upset about. If you're in a minority, no matter how vocal, you're never going to be treated equally to the majority. That's just the reality of things.

To me it actualy feels like many straight potential buyers of ME3 wants some ss too. I suspect it is much due to good old "gay/lez is hot". So I belive the economical incentive for BioWare to include ss may be bigger than you think.

[Athayniel]

I just want to say I'm currently playing ME1 with my engineer and she kicks all sorts of ****. Just because something is in the minority doesn't mean it's not capable of greatness or unworthy of attention and appreciation.

Anyways, roleplaying games by definition are about the choices the player makes in the process of the story, no matter what those choices happen to be. A good RPG allows the player to make many choices. A great RPG allows the player so many choices there are some they never have to make but are there anyway.

Modifié par Athayniel, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[ElitePinecone]

Not to try and stop what has been a mostly interesting debate, but a lot of this discussion is... sorta pointless.

We don't know why Bioware puts certain content in their games. It could be entirely down to satisfying the greatest number of people for commercial or marketing reasons, it could be to pursue their own creative visions; I'd argue it's a mixture of the two.

But we don't know, and it doesn't really matter. The content will be there. Arguing that it shouldn't isn't going to make it go away. Complaining that it's only satisfying a small segment of the fanbase might be comforting if you have a problem with it, but it's a bit futile.

It'll still be there in six months.

Related: I'd tone down the sort of language you're using, Volus. 'Nightmarish' isn't exactly constructive. Honest? Maybe. But unhelpful. One might start to suspect you were irrationally uncomfortable with optional content - and we wouldn't want that.

[Sister Helen]

I'm all about more content - gives me a chance to replay the game (which by its design is kind of restricted to a certain plot), and connect to the characters a different way.

Example: I never really felt a connection to the asari LI in ME 1, on the first playthrough. But because I knew she was a possible LI, I romanced her as femShep on the second playthrough. (Did it as femShep because I liked Ashley as a maleShep LI and didn't care for Kaidan.)

It all worked out amazing, especially when ME2 Shadowbroker DLC came out! If the asari LI hadn't been available as a femShep LI, I wouldn't have replayed the game and I would have missed out on some of the most touching scenes in the Shadowbroker DLC.

[ladyofpayne]

So our Funny BI is known already?

[jlb524]

Ghost Warrior wrote...
"Deserve" is the wrong word,it's just considered more realistic because heterosexuality is much more common in today's world,so most people assume that it's the same in ME universe since it hasn't been said otherwise.

No, I think in some cases 'deserve' is the right word.  'Hey, there's more of us, we deserve more!'

Ghost Warrior wrote...
And you gotta admit that all of the characters suddenly becoming available to both sexes would be more than unbelievable.

Not all the characters, just the romances.

It wouldn't be anymore unbelievable than a lot of other crap that they throw in...

Also, considering I don't have to romance all these LIs in a single playthrough...I don't see the problem.

The idea that 'all are available' is meta.  In game, my Shepard will only go after the LI she wants and the others will remain just friends and not interested in my Shepard.

[jlb524]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I honestly don't get what's wrong about heteronormativity. It's a natural social bias that has existed since the dawn of our species. Nature favors heterosexuality and for good reasons. You may feel left out sometimes compared to the majority, but that is simply a price that the few must pay, decreed by the forces that be.

Nature 'favors' brunettes but is 'brunetteness' held on a pedestal in society?

Creating social groups and placing them on heirarchies can be psychologically damaging to those not at the top...not included in culture/society.

Yes, these people who are not part of the favored group do feel left out (whether it's sexuality based, race based, etc.) and that is damaging for a member of a species that is very social and wants to feel included.  It doesn't have to be this way.

Modifié par jlb524, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[TheMarshal]

jlb524 wrote...

Nature 'favors' brunettes but is 'brunetteness' held on a pedestal in society?

Creating social groups and placing them on heirarchies can be psychologically damaging to those not at the top...not included in culture/society.

Yes, these people who are not part of the favored group do feel left out (whether it's sexuality based, race based, etc.) and that is damaging for a member of a species that is very social and wants to feel included.  It doesn't have to be this way.

Know any good "Dumb brunette" jokes?  Do you remember all the backlash when people thought FemShep was going to be a blonde?  Obviously not quite the same thing, but there are definitly hierarchies and "preferences" for certain traits.  I don't think they should be celebrated by any means, but it's not possible to avoid such differences.  And when a good 80-90% of the population is one way it sucks for the other 10-20% when it's assumed they're part of the majority, but there isn't really any good way to get around that.  Inevitably, "one-size-fits-all" solutions leave someone out, just like when I go hat shopping.  (Stupid big head...  ::grumble grumble:

[jlb524]

TheMarshal wrote...
Know any good "Dumb brunette" jokes?  Do you remember all the backlash when people thought FemShep was going to be a blonde?  Obviously not quite the same thing, but there are definitly hierarchies and "preferences" for certain traits. 

What about 'blondes have more fun!'?

Not even close to the same.  It's not like blonde folk are institutuionally oppressed or denied the rights brunettes enjoy for being blonde.  It's not as if blondes are all but snuffed out of popular culture.

TheMarshal wrote...
I don't think they should be celebrated by any means, but it's not possible to avoid such differences.  And when a good 80-90% of the population is one way it sucks for the other 10-20% when it's assumed they're part of the majority, but there isn't really any good way to get around that.  Inevitably, "one-size-fits-all" solutions leave someone out, just like when I go hat shopping.  (Stupid big head...  ::grumble grumble:

It doesn't have to be that way.  There can be more variety in entertainment and even the majority can enjoy things geared towards the minority.   Straight people watched Queer as Folk and The L Word plus we know they do s/s romances in video games.

[draken-heart]

Just wanted to ask a question. We all know that a relationship between liara and f!shep is not a lesbian one, but what about Shepard's sexual orientation? if Fem!Shep likes Liara i think she would be considered a lesbian due to the fact that Liara looks like a woman. Just wanted to know, because i think female humans dating asari would like other female humans.

[Sister Helen]

If you want to be technical, it's likely that Liara is either: 1) lacking a set of genitals, or 2) has a complete set (both male and female).

As a monogendered character, she may just be a "third sex" entirely.

In any case, she may "look" female, but she definitely had some "masculine" moves when she literally swept the player's character off his/her feet in the beginning of the ME1 love scene.

... I guess that makes Shep "pansexual."  ...   or "asari-sexual."

Modifié par Sister Helen, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:47 .

[MACharlie1]

draken-heart wrote...

Just wanted to ask a question. We all know that a relationship between liara and f!shep is not a lesbian one, but what about Shepard's sexual orientation? if Fem!Shep likes Liara i think she would be considered a lesbian due to the fact that Liara looks like a woman. Just wanted to know, because i think female humans dating asari would like other female humans.

That is the argument that for all human reasoning, an Asari relationship with a female human would be a lesbian one.

Regardless of how the asari see themselves (and other female species), to humans, barring the blue skin and the head-tentacles, they look like human females. They got fluttering eyelashes, breasts (and by that I don't mean manly pecs), curvy figures and probably a vagina. If you are a human woman and are attracted to these things, you are a bisexual/homosexual. In the asari case, it's a xenophilic homosexual relationship. 

[BrandNewMan]

The Asari make me think. If you ask me, homosexual and heterosexual aren't ideal terms, as they require identification of one's own gender. Maybe words like femmesexual (attraction towards the feminine) and hommesexual (attraction towards the masculine) would be better, while keeping bisexual as the middle ground.

[draken-heart]

i was more wondering which orientation shepard would see herself as.

Modifié par draken-heart, 02 septembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Holy crap, I can leave for almost a month and the same argument is going on using the exact same lines.

[KawaiiKatie]

draken-heart wrote...

i was more wondering which orientation shepard would see herself as.

I think Shepard's sexual orientation is strictly up to the player. I might look at the femShep/Liara pairing and view it as a lesbian relationship, but it's not my place to assign any sort of lable to their relationship.

That said, I think that most femSheps who are attracted to Liara would view themselves as homosexual, bisexual, or pansexual. Most femSheps who like Liara like her because they are attracted to the female form in some capacity--this is why male Shepard can get away with being attracted to Liara even though she isn't "technically" female. Liara looks female and therefor one can reasonably guess that any male Shepard who is interest in her also likes human females. Same with female Shepard.

But that said, heaven forbid me from telling any Shepard how to identify his or her sexuality. If a femShep is in a relationship with Liara but insists that she is still straight because "Asari don't count as female" or whatever, that's completely her prerogative.

[draken-heart]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

i was more wondering which orientation shepard would see herself as.

I think Shepard's sexual orientation is strictly up to the player. I might look at the femShep/Liara pairing and view it as a lesbian relationship, but it's not my place to assign any sort of lable to their relationship.

That said, I think that most femSheps who are attracted to Liara would view themselves as homosexual, bisexual, or pansexual. Most femSheps who like Liara like her because they are attracted to the female form in some capacity--this is why male Shepard can get away with being attracted to Liara even though she isn't "technically" female. Liara looks female and therefor one can reasonably guess that any male Shepard who is interest in her also likes human females. Same with female Shepard.

But that said, heaven forbid me from telling any Shepard how to identify his or her sexuality. If a femShep is in a relationship with Liara but insists that she is still straight because "Asari don't count as female" or whatever, that's completely her prerogative.

i kind of expected this response and thx

[ElitePinecone]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

That said, I think that most femSheps who are attracted to Liara would view themselves as homosexual, bisexual, or pansexual. Most femSheps who like Liara like her because they are attracted to the female form in some capacity--this is why male Shepard can get away with being attracted to Liara even though she isn't "technically" female. Liara looks female and therefor one can reasonably guess that any male Shepard who is interest in her also likes human females. Same with female Shepard.

This is a very reasonable attitude, and I think it makes the most sense. 

It makes the argument that Liara/femShep isn't a same-sex relatonship baffling: from Shepard's perspective (and the player's) it most definitely is, and from Liara's perspective it may as well be. 

Still, if Bioware do keep up that stance at least it means there'll be human f/f options for ME3. 

[silentassassin264]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

i was more wondering which orientation shepard would see herself as.

I think Shepard's sexual orientation is strictly up to the player.

I wish I could believe that but that is not at all true.  Case in point, Shepard's ability to flirt as it is.  In ME1, a lesbian Shepard should have been able to do the would you kiss anyone line when Ashley when talking about accepting the alien crew but regardless of how you view your Shepard, that is not the case.  In ME2, Tali flirts as hard as she possibly can with femshep but your lesbian femshep cannot respond to someone obviously hitting on her just because it is another female.  Your sexuality is set on heterosexual with the exception of the omni/pan/whateversexual Kelly.  Asari had been explained away as not being female by Casey Hudson so they still do not even count. 

[KawaiiKatie]

silentassassin264 wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I think Shepard's sexual orientation is strictly up to the player.

I wish I could believe that but that is not at all true.  Case in point, Shepard's ability to flirt as it is.

Who Shepard can and cannot flirt with does not change his or her sexuality. My gay male Shepard is definitely gay, and his inability to flirt with males doesn't change that. Just because the current options are restricted to heterosexual relationships doesn't mean that Shepard is heterosexual. That's why the romances are optional, not a requirement.

If you view your female Shepard is a lesbian, then she is definitely a lesbian. Even if she never had the chance to sleep with Kelly or Liara, she would still be a lesbian. Until she is forced to say, with no input from the player, that she is heterosexual, Shepard's sexuality is entirely up to the player.

[silentassassin264]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I think Shepard's sexual orientation is strictly up to the player.

I wish I could believe that but that is not at all true.  Case in point, Shepard's ability to flirt as it is.

Who Shepard can and cannot flirt with does not change his or her sexuality. My gay male Shepard is definitely gay, and his inability to flirt with males doesn't change that. Just because the current options are restricted to heterosexual relationships doesn't mean that Shepard is heterosexual. That's why the romances are optional, not a requirement.

If you view your female Shepard is a lesbian, then she is definitely a lesbian. Even if she never had the chance to sleep with Kelly or Liara, she would still be a lesbian. Until she is forced to say, with no input from the player, that she is heterosexual, Shepard's sexuality is entirely up to the player.

That still doesn't really work.  You can view your shepard as whatever you want but that doesn't make it true.  In my excessive role playing for my Layla Shepard, she was biotic gangster on Earth who was an unrepentent murderer and general sociopath.  She joined the alliance for the sole purpose of being able to legally kill as much as she wanted (and she was kind of wanted though they technically did not have her identity.  Her police file name was the Shadow Killer due to mangling people with biotics).  She continued her murder sprees through Torfan and other exercises etc. etc.  Guess what?  When she is talking to Grunt about his rage addiction (which is pretty much every conversation with him), she can never agree with him or get excited about him finding out he hates Turians or whatever he wants to kill at the moment.  She has to come off on a paragon patronizing slant regardless of what I was rping.  Talking to Jack about her past?  I have to be appalled at her actions and ask if she should have done things different, say she can't make the world a little emptier after finding the Cerberus records, etc etc.  The same thing is with sexuality.  You can rp your Shepard however you want in your head (which is still pretty fun) but in the game, you are heterosexual in ME1 and ME2. 

[KawaiiKatie]

silentassassin264 wrote...

You can rp your Shepard however you want in your head (which is still pretty fun) but in the game, you are heterosexual in ME1 and ME2. 

Until something in-game actively and undeniably contradicts your perception of Shepard, then your perception of Shepard is correct. That's what role playing is. No, Shepard is not a completely blank slate, but Shepard does have blank spaces where the player is free to interpret or embellish at will, and the inability to explore it in-game does not make it false.

Giving Shepard the option to be straight in ME1 and ME2 didn't make Shepard straight, just as giving Shepard the option to be gay in ME3 won't make Shepard gay.

EDIT: Also, I would like you to point out exactly where it said that my male Shepard was heterosexual in ME1 and ME2. Was it because he had the option to sleep with women? Sorry, no dice. If, in real life, I have the option to sleep with tones of women but no men, that isn't going to make me attracted to women. I might not mention my sexual preference to anyone, but my inability to sleep with men wouldn't change my sexuality.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:10 .

[silentassassin264]

No it was more the fact that he cannot and will not flirt with a male in any opportunity. Your "gay" male Shepard that ignored all female advances just comes off as celibate/chaste hero. Being homosexual means being attracted to the same sex not just not being attracted to the opposite sex. If you display no capacity show an attraction to the same sex, you are not homosexual.