25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

silentassassin264 wrote...
 Asari had been explained away as not being female by Casey Hudson so they still do not even count. 

The problem is that Casey Hudson is wrong and the codex is right. He's just the lead producer and is bound to get some things wrong concerning the lore. Don't take anything as WoG unless it comes straight from the writing team.

And Shepard can be gay or bi in ME1 and ME2. That would be the logic behind him being attracted to men in ME3. Just because the game isn't flaunting something about Shepard in your face doesn't mean you can't RP him to be so.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[MACharlie1]

Even if the Asari aren't by definition not female - they have all the human-female sexual characteristics that heterosexual men/homosexual women would be attracted to.

[KawaiiKatie]

silentassassin264 wrote...

No it was more the fact that he cannot and will not flirt with a male in any opportunity. Your "gay" male Shepard that ignored all female advances just comes off as celibate/chaste hero. Being homosexual means being attracted to the same sex not just not
being attracted to the opposite sex.

Being unable to flirt with the male crewmembers is not the same as not wanting to. See any Shepard who wanted desperately to flirt with Garrus or Tali in ME1. Shepard was unable to, but that doesn't mean that Shepard wasn't attracted them. That particular detail is left up to the player.

Futhermore, there are other ways to show attraction than outright flirting. Perhaps lesbian Shepard is kinder to females than she is to males, or spends a lot of time hanging out in Miranda's office. It's not flirting, but it's a legitimate way to play lesbian Shepard.

I'm not arguing that Bioware unfairly defaulted male Shepard to "heterosexual" in ME1 and ME2. Indeed, a lot of the dialogue choices really seem to hammer in the fact that they really, really wanted male Shepard to be attracted to females. But that does not, does not, does not make male Shepard straight unless the player wishes it to.

If you display no capacity show an
attraction to the same sex, you are not homosexual.

Okay, you need to stop there before you start getting really offensive. Not every homosexual blatantly shows interest in the same sex. Not every homosexual is comfortable with his or her sexuality. Just because Shepard did not outright proposition Kaidan, Jacob, Thane or Garrus in a way that confirmed his homosexuality for you does not negate his sexuality. Please do not make such a suggestion so lightly.

[silentassassin264]

Sorry I was not trying to be offensive nor was I implying every homosexual is running around saying they are gay and hitting on everyone of the same sex...I would know a thing or two about that. My point is, is your gay Shepard was attracted to Kaiden in ME1 and wanted to flirt with him or otherwise get with him and has to wait until ME3 before they allow him to do that...he was not gay just like my adept is not that much of a bloodthirsty criminal regardless of how I view the character. And your little touches like hanging around Miranda's office as a lesbian Shepard are nice little rping touches like I said, but that does not change the fact that your Shepard is not allowed to show any interest in Miranda and she will brush you off because she is always doing mission reports and you really don't have anything to say to her like Garrus is always calibrating (why didn't that become a meme as well?). All I am saying is that the game designers intended for Shepard regardless of gender to be heterosexual and if you try to go against it, it felt like you were Krogan headbutting a brickwall.

Sooooo, here is to a gay Shepard who can actually speak his mind in ME3.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[KawaiiKatie]

silentassassin264 wrote...

All I am saying is that the game designers intended for Shepard regardless of gender to be heterosexual

I think that's true for male Shepard, but not for female Shepard. Actually, before Kelly Chambers appeared, I was willing to buy the whole "Asari aren't female and femShep is still heterosexual, even after banging Liara" if only because Bioware seemed to believe "Shepard is straight!" so very desperately.

But then Kelly Chambers happened. Lesbian Shepard was givien the chance to flirt and "have dinner with" and be stripteased by a cute human redhead... with absolutely no consequences. "Here's some softcore lesbian action to keep you warm while Liara is off doing her Shadow Broker thing. Wouldn't want those bedsheets to cool off, lesbian Shepard!"

After that, it became clear that lesbian Shepard was definitely on Bioware's agenda. Gay male Shepard? Not so much. I'll concede that Bioware probably intended for male Shepard to be straight in ME1 and ME2... but that doesn't make it true. They never forced him to engage in heterosexual sex, so he is not heterosexual unless the player chooses him to be.

[silentassassin264]

Again, I want to agree with you with Kelly but they don't treat Kelly like a true romance. You don't even get Paramore for it. It seemed to me like they just left decided to have some fanservice since they allowed male shep to flirt with his secretary and didn't want to be bothered to create another character for femshep since they believe only 18% of the people play her anyway. That is why I supported that Kelly Romance for ME3 thread. If they treat it as serious in ME3 then I can say for certain yay lesbian femshep but I remain skeptical.

And as far as forcing a male shep into heterosexual sex..it is true they did not force him to have sex with a female but if you were a renegade you sure got stealth sex'd by the consort if you didn't know it was there.

[ladyvader]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Even if the Asari aren't by definition not female - they have all the human-female sexual characteristics that heterosexual men/homosexual women would be attracted to.

That is not how I view my canon femShep.  She is attracted to an asari.  She is not attracted to human females.  Because if she was only into women, she would not had to choose between Liara and Kaidan.

[Quething]

ladyvader wrote...

That is not how I view my canon femShep.  She is attracted to an asari.  She is not attracted to human females.  Because if she was only into women, she would not had to choose between Liara and Kaidan.

Um.

You do realize this is not a logically sound construction, right? Attraction to human females != lack of attraction to human males.

And are we talking about Kelly again? More interesting tidbits from the SCIENCE playthrough: if you take Kelly up to your room (whether as a friend or a lover), Kasumi will comment on it. In fact, she'll say "I thought she was hitting on me when I first came aboard, but I guess she was just being friendly to the new girl." And neither the idea that Kelly might be attracted to her nor the idea that femShep has something going with Kelly is the least bit perturbing to her.

Of course, Kasumi also doesn't mind all that much if Shep brings Morinth on board, so she's probably not the best example of the common MEverse morality, but hey, it's one more nice moment to counteract the bad taste of that Nef recording.

[draken-heart]

okay, okay, me thinks that the whole Bioware saying "Asari are not really female" is just an excuse for people to justify making a lesbian Shepard who is in the closet about her sexual preference.

and flirting with kelly, her being a FEMALE HUMAN, makes a fem!Shepard doing so a lesbian/bisexual/open-minded, due to the fact that she is flirting with a human woman.

also the nef recording, Nef calls morith a "GIRL, like me" or something to that effect. Ashley and Kaidan use the pronoun she/her when talking about a potential Liara-Shepard romance. that proves that most humans see the asari as female and anyrelationship between a human woman and an asari as a homosexual one. At least in human thinking, that is.

Modifié par draken-heart, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:03 .

[Captain_Obvious]

draken-heart wrote...

okay, okay, me thinks that the whole Bioware saying "Asari are not really female" is just an excuse for people to justify making a lesbian Shepard who is in the closet about her sexual preference.

and flirting with kelly, her being a FEMALE HUMAN, makes a fem!Shepard doing so a lesbian/bisexual/open-minded, due to the fact that she is flirting with a human woman.

also the nef recording, Nef calls morith a "GIRL, like me" or something to that effect. Ashley and Kaidan use the pronoun she/her when talking about a potential Liara-Shepard romance. that proves that most humans see the asari as female and anyrelationship between a human woman and an asari as a homosexual one. At least in human thinking, that is.

I thought the whole "Asari are not really female" thing was a way to get the whole "lesbians are hot" fantasy in the game, without having to really admit it.  I didn't really consider it an attempt to be open-minded on Bioware's part, I considered it pandering to another straight male fantasy.  The inclusion of serious M/M relationships (in contrast to the not-too-picky Zevran in DA:O) in both DA2 and ME3 goes a long way toward convincing me that I was wrong in my initial assessment.  I'm really looking forward to ME3. 

[lietk12]

Basically, it is entirely possible that a Shepard playthrough could be of any sexuality but not at all attracted to the selection of characters that BioWare has given him/her. Of course, BW probably didn't intend this, but it wouldn't be too far a leap from Garrus's "I didn't find you attractive before, but maybe I'll try you" for Shepard to suddenly start being able to flirt with people of the same sex/gender that hadn't seemed attractive in ME1 and ME2 (note: shepard-didn't-find-any-same-gender/sex-crew-members-attractive isn't the only possible explanation for not flirting).

Arguing that Shepard's inability to flirt with people of the same sex is explainable by saying that BW assumed that he was straight, but it is just as explainable by saying that BW assumed that all non-straight Shepards were closeted or were too focused on the mission or hadn't realized or didn't want to be in a relationship at the time or didn't think he/she knew the crew members well enough to pursue a relationship or any number of other possibilities of varying degrees of believability. It is "just as explainable" because there is almost no cross-playthrough in-game evidence proving that Shepard is straight. There still is that thing with Gianna Parasini on Illium for m!Shep (and a few other encounters, iirc), which one could use to argue that all ME Shepards experience at least a small amount of attraction for a nonzero number of people of the opposite sex/gender. But that doesn't mean that Shepard is straight, and it's certainly doesn't happen in all Shepard playthroughs. Also, out-of-game evidence without an in-game counterpart doesn't really count because it can be subject to revision/correction and also because it wasn't considered significant enough to include in the game.

Modifié par lietk12, 03 septembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[ElitePinecone]

Captain_Obvious wrote...
snip

If I remember correctly, Bioware created the asari to deliberately subvert the 'blue space lesbians' trope of 70s and 80s scifi. 

Patrick Weekes and Mac Walters have said they deliberately put asari into a lot of positions of power (Benezia, the Council, Aria, the Consort, Samara, etc) to show that they could be leaders, diplomats and crime bosses as well as the expected strippers and mercs. It's meant to show that they have just as wide a range of occupations as any other species in the galaxy and that they shouldn't be defined by just sex appeal.

It might not have worked that well in practice (especially when they're being silly about calling it a same-sex romance), but Liara's romance arc over two games is (for me at least) the most genuinely 'emotional' romance a Bioware game has done to date. 

I do agree that the more sophisticated s/s that was in DA2 and that will hopefully be in ME3 is something to be thankful for. Zevran was interesting (and his arc had a surprisingly poignant conclusion) but the character felt a bit too artificial for a serious game. 

[Abispa]

S/s should have been included for male Shepard in the beginning. I used to argue that I'd like an explanation on why only NOW he can flirt with Kaidan or Garrus, but the more I think about it the more I've moved toward just include it in ME3 and don't dwell on it. We KNOW it's because he couldn't before because the option didn't exist, but I say leave any explanations on the "waiting for the right moment" be left up to the role-player.

[Quething]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Patrick Weekes and Mac Walters have said they deliberately put asari into a lot of positions of power (Benezia, the Council, Aria, the Consort, Samara, etc) to show that they could be leaders, diplomats and crime bosses as well as the expected strippers and mercs. It's meant to show that they have just as wide a range of occupations as any other species in the galaxy and that they shouldn't be defined by just sex appeal.

Huh. So that's the explanation for why there are no human women in positions of power? Invited a snake to hunt a rat with that one, didn't they.

Abispa wrote...

the more I think about it the more I've moved toward just include it in ME3 and don't dwell on it. We KNOW it's because he couldn't before because the option didn't exist, but I say leave any explanations on the "waiting for the right moment" be left up to the role-player.

I concur.

Modifié par Quething, 03 septembre 2011 - 03:54 .

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Patrick Weekes and Mac Walters have said they deliberately put asari into a lot of positions of power (Benezia, the Council, Aria, the Consort, Samara, etc) to show that they could be leaders, diplomats and crime bosses as well as the expected strippers and mercs. It's meant to show that they have just as wide a range of occupations as any other species in the galaxy and that they shouldn't be defined by just sex appeal.

Huh. So that's the explanation for why there are no human women in positions of power? Invited a snake to hunt a rat with that one, didn't they.

Hm. That's a good interesting point. I'd never thought about the lack of human women in positions of power, aside from Shepard herself. 

The books do mention a few names (Anita Goyle was the first human ambassador to the Citadel, say, before Udina) but it's true that there aren't many in the game itself. 

I'm struggling to think of even one. Maybe Giana Parasini? Miranda? Captain Matsuo? They're all pretty minor characters. 

[KawaiiKatie]

Quething wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Patrick Weekes and Mac Walters have said they deliberately put asari into a lot of positions of power (Benezia, the Council, Aria, the Consort, Samara, etc) to show that they could be leaders, diplomats and crime bosses as well as the expected strippers and mercs. It's meant to show that they have just as wide a range of occupations as any other species in the galaxy and that they shouldn't be defined by just sex appeal.

Huh. So that's the explanation for why there are no human women in positions of power? Invited a snake to hunt a rat with that one, didn't they.

I hate how Bioware tries to have both sides of the "Asari aren't female" argument. You can't say that Asari are a representation of strong, powerful women but constantly debunk and deny the fact that they're actually female.

[KawaiiKatie]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Hm. That's a good interesting point. I'd never thought about the lack of human women in positions of power, aside from Shepard herself.

Yeah, it's pretty disappointing that the Alliance doesn't have any female admirals. I can think of five male Alliance admirals off the top of my head (Anderson, Hackett, Ahern, Mickhailovich and Kohoku) but... no ladies. I'm sure that Hannah Shepard would've represented women admirably, but she turned down the job.

I'm struggling to think of even one. Maybe Giana Parasini? Miranda? Captain Matsuo? They're all pretty minor characters. 

Um... There's that crazy chick who tried to build her own army. Jedore? She didn't answer to anyone. She was pretty cool.

But yeah, most of the "women" in power are Asari. I guess in Mass Effect, you can't be in charge unless you're male or not "technically" female.

...or Shepard.

[Abispa]

Well, spacer Shepard's mom is a starship captain due to be promoted to admiral, so she could be in a position of power. Of course, she probably doesn't even exist in most players' games.

[MACharlie1]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I'm struggling to think of even one. Maybe Giana Parasini? Miranda? Captain Matsuo? They're all pretty minor characters. 

Um... There's that crazy chick who tried to build her own army. Jedore? She didn't answer to anyone. She was pretty cool.

But yeah, most of the "women" in power are Asari. I guess in Mass Effect, you can't be in charge unless you're male or not "technically" female.

...or Shepard.

There's also Helena Blake and Amanda Kenson. Still pretty low. 

[Sister Helen]

,... So what gender are hanar?....

[KawaiiKatie]

Sister Helen wrote...

,... So what gender are hanar?....

....what Hanar holds a place of political or military power? 

.....I guess there's Blasto. But he's male. While most Hanar are sanctioned an "it" (rather than a "he" or a "she") Blasto is refered to as male.

"He has a lover in every port, and a gun in every tentacle."

[Quething]

MACharlie1 wrote...

There's also Helena Blake and Amanda Kenson. Still pretty low. 

I don't know if I'd count Blake anyway. She exists for the sole purpose of being removed from power by Shepard. Even if you don't do so, she ends up subservient to Aria in ME2.

The most visible it gets in the base game, I'd say, is Miranda and Hannah Shepard; and of course (as mentioned) Hannah turns down the Admiralty and doesn't exist for a majority of Shepards, and Miranda has no real authority (the game even explicitly calls out that the squad doesn't respect her leadership, after probably months of working alongside her). And Shepard, of course, but it's incredibly disengenuous to count her. I mean dudeShep is canon, as much as they keep claiming he isn't (see: Legion, Liara's armor trophy), and is supposedly the only Shep to 80% of the playerbase anyway (and certainly the only Shep to anyone outside it).

I can't tell you all how pleased I was to discover Kenson was actually in charge of the whole Project. Too little too late for my angry inner feminist, but the more moderate rest of me is at least a little appeased, and hopeful this is the start of a better trend for ME3 (much the same way the moderate rest of me is happy about s/s in ME3 while my inner ****** is still railing about the first too games. Hey look, topic! ^___^)

(this post needs moar parentheticals!)

Modifié par Quething, 03 septembre 2011 - 10:06 .

[Sister Helen]

Isn't it kind of silly to get into the whole "what gender are asari and what sexual orientation does that make Shep if he/she is attracted to asari?" 

Hence the question that I asked earlier about hanar gender, as I always figured hanar and asari were similarly monogendered... But I had forgotten about Blasto! and so it can be assumed hanar do have at least the male gender... So if a maleshep was attracted to a hanar, he'd be homosexual, I'd guess? and a femshep would be heterosexual?

[Sister Helen]

Regarding females in power in ME2:

1) The quarian admirals.  The mediator and the other one (who was snarky).

2) The alien queen.  The one who Shep set free in ME1 on the ice planet.

3) That miserable female reporter on the citadel.

(There were a ton of asari who were in positions of political or economic power in ME2.)

[Quething]

I think once you're legit attracted to hanar in a sexual way, you're into pansexual, which doesn't depend on the gender of either participant for definition.

I will continue to maintain, however, until (and perhaps even if) proven otherwise, that hanar do not have gender in a way humans would recognize, and the translators on Illium just spit out "him" because humanity still hasn't decided between "zie" and "xir" and "hir."