Quarians are good example, but I wouldnt consider someone trapped in a tank at shepards mercy as being in a position of power. Nor the reporter who you can punch out without any consequences.
♂♂ • ♀♀ For The Love — The Same-Sex Romance Discussion Thread **may contain spoilers**
Débuté par
Siansonea
, juin 13 2011 05:20
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#9877
Posté 03 septembre 2011 - 10:19
S Seraff
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There are a lot of pages here, and I'm sure this point has been made, but just the same I want to thow n my two cents.
I think it's perfectly fine when talking about ME characters and their sexuality, to make a distinction between their Canon version, and your Player version.
The gamer developers may indeed not see Shep and some of the squadmates as gay, and I believe that's perfectly valid creatively, and the Canon version of those characters should reflect that.
Your Player version of events is created by the Player, and if we can decide fates of races and people, and our shep's gender, and have one or many squadmates die, our game universe is specifically NOT canon. The Player version should be amenable to the player's interests, and whether to have a s/s relationship with a squadmate should be up to the Player to decide
So, it's not "is this character straight/gay/bi?" that's a Canon question, and so has an Official answer. But in Your game, the question is, "do you want them to be?" If you choose a gay dialogue option, then you've decided you want that character to be gay. If yu don't select it, it's a non-issue.
I think it's perfectly fine when talking about ME characters and their sexuality, to make a distinction between their Canon version, and your Player version.
The gamer developers may indeed not see Shep and some of the squadmates as gay, and I believe that's perfectly valid creatively, and the Canon version of those characters should reflect that.
Your Player version of events is created by the Player, and if we can decide fates of races and people, and our shep's gender, and have one or many squadmates die, our game universe is specifically NOT canon. The Player version should be amenable to the player's interests, and whether to have a s/s relationship with a squadmate should be up to the Player to decide
So, it's not "is this character straight/gay/bi?" that's a Canon question, and so has an Official answer. But in Your game, the question is, "do you want them to be?" If you choose a gay dialogue option, then you've decided you want that character to be gay. If yu don't select it, it's a non-issue.
#9878
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 01:45
ElitePinecone
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S Seraff wrote...
snip
There is no canon. Never has been, never will be.
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
If a choice appears in the game, and the player makes it, then that choice becomes 'canon' for that player in that playthrough.
Other than that there's no 'official' canon floating around. If a character can be romanced by either gender, it's because they are attracted to, in some way or another, either gender of Shepard.
#9879
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 07:53
Quething
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ElitePinecone wrote...
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
Except when they haven't, and tried to pass off the lack of m/m options as "Shep's a more predefined character."
Even now, when their talk is rather better, they still don't always walk the walk, though I do give them props for at least admitting as much [/bitter femShepper].
#9880
Posté 04 septembre 2011 - 09:11
ElitePinecone
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Quething wrote...
ElitePinecone wrote...
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
Except when they haven't, and tried to pass off the lack of m/m options as "Shep's a more predefined character."
Even now, when their talk is rather better, they still don't always walk the walk, though I do give them props for at least admitting as much [/bitter femShepper].
I was going to mention Muzayka's bizarre 'pre-defined character' response a few years back, but the ludicrousness of that position is self-evident, I don't think I need to point that out.
There's a jarring disconnect between the ideal of 'Shepard as a blank canvas' and 'we think m/m is too controversial for the teenage male fanbase so we're gonna leave it out'. That's if that was the motive - given femShep's possible relationships with Liara and Kelly, I suspect it was. I wouldn't have even minded if they'd just come out and said that; trying to paper it over with two separate answers (one blaming resources and one blaming some unique, mystical attribute of the franchise) just made me annoyed.
If I magically had five minutes with the developers, especially Muzayka and Hudson, that's definitely something I'd like to ask about. When did 'Shepard is a blank canvas' prior to the first game morph into 'Shepard is a pre-defined character who can't be gay because we say so', and how did that - through whatever internal machinations - change again into 'Shepard can have both m/m and f/f relationships for some reason we aren't prepared to comment on.'
In any event, brain-lapses in interviews aside, Bioware have consistently pushed the line that there is no official canon. That might just be amped-up marketing-speak, but until someone says otherwise I'm going to take it at face value.
(I just re-read Muzayka's answer again and it is one of the most confusing non-responses I've ever had the misfortune of reading. It's obvious - though this hardly needs to be said - that he was trying to avoid the question, probably because the truth would've been too hard to admit.)
We love giving players choice, and we are going to continue to enable that for future games. That’s a commitment for some of our franchises. For some other franchises we’ve had more defined characters and sort of approaches to things, and they’ve had a more defined personality and a more defined approach to the way they’ve proceed through the game and the world.
#9881
Posté 05 septembre 2011 - 11:19
Abispa
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I despise reading tie in novels to my movie and game franchises, so I'm unclear as to how "Shepard" is handled in the novels. Is there any indication of his/her gender, name, specialization, sexual preference, or background in the novels?
#9882
Posté 05 septembre 2011 - 11:32
ElitePinecone
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Abispa wrote...
I despise reading tie in novels to my movie and game franchises, so I'm unclear as to how "Shepard" is handled in the novels. Is there any indication of his/her gender, name, specialization, sexual preference, or background in the novels?
It's always skirted around them, or s/he's peripheral to the plot. The books call Shepard 'the Commander', or 'Shepard' and don't mention any of the events of the games except for vague details or the ones set in stone (e.g. 'The Council was shaken up' - but it doesn't mention if it was added to or completely replaced by humans).
David Gaider has said, though, that for the next DA2 book he's going to ignore the possible events of DAO (where Wynne could've died) and write her into the story. He justifies it by saying the novel is a story about 'one possible branch of the universe', or something, and doesn't mean that people who killed Wynne are breaking canon.
I imagine it's what Bioware would do if they ever made a Shepard movie - they'd call it a renactment of one particular story path, not any attempt to define canon.
#9883
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 02:11
Quething
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Well, the DA franchise already abandoned player choice of canon in the games (cf: Leliana), so it's not surprising they've given it up in the tie-ins as well. I don't think it's as likely in the MEverse, since they've been more careful about the choices they offer.
Though Shep does seem to have been getting more canon with each installment; Shep doesn't think Cerberus' crimes are a particularly big deal, Shep is at least a good friend of Liara, Shep doesn't care much more about batarians than about someone's pet dog. Certain characteristics have built up over time (though none involve gender or squadmate of preference).
Though Shep does seem to have been getting more canon with each installment; Shep doesn't think Cerberus' crimes are a particularly big deal, Shep is at least a good friend of Liara, Shep doesn't care much more about batarians than about someone's pet dog. Certain characteristics have built up over time (though none involve gender or squadmate of preference).
#9884
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 01:11
ladyofpayne
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Oh I wohe for Gaymance will be man like Anders- funny and pisitive, but strenght.
#9885
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 03:00
FoxHound109
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ElitePinecone wrote...
There is no canon. Never has been, never will be.
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
If a choice appears in the game, and the player makes it, then that choice becomes 'canon' for that player in that playthrough.
Other than that there's no 'official' canon floating around. If a character can be romanced by either gender, it's because they are attracted to, in some way or another, either gender of Shepard.
Kind of. It depends on the writers, to be honest. Anders was written to be gay for Dragon Age II, not bi or heterosexual. The options were just given for the players, but if they had to stick him somewhere in a world with no player choice, he was written as gay. Technically, for all intents and purposes, Anders is canonically gay.
But it doesn't matter in the end. "Canon" is pointless because we can change it in games like this.
#9886
Guest_Ferris95_*
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 03:37
Guest_Ferris95_*
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FoxHound109 wrote...
ElitePinecone wrote...
There is no canon. Never has been, never will be.
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
If a choice appears in the game, and the player makes it, then that choice becomes 'canon' for that player in that playthrough.
Other than that there's no 'official' canon floating around. If a character can be romanced by either gender, it's because they are attracted to, in some way or another, either gender of Shepard.
Kind of. It depends on the writers, to be honest. Anders was written to be gay for Dragon Age II, not bi or heterosexual. The options were just given for the players, but if they had to stick him somewhere in a world with no player choice, he was written as gay. Technically, for all intents and purposes, Anders is canonically gay.
But it doesn't matter in the end. "Canon" is pointless because we can change it in games like this.
Not that I want to a start another arguement over Ander's sexuality, but with all of his blatant flirting with the ladies in Awakening wouldn't he qualify as cannonically bi?
#9887
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 05:47
FoxHound109
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Ferris95 wrote...
FoxHound109 wrote...
ElitePinecone wrote...
There is no canon. Never has been, never will be.
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
If a choice appears in the game, and the player makes it, then that choice becomes 'canon' for that player in that playthrough.
Other than that there's no 'official' canon floating around. If a character can be romanced by either gender, it's because they are attracted to, in some way or another, either gender of Shepard.
Kind of. It depends on the writers, to be honest. Anders was written to be gay for Dragon Age II, not bi or heterosexual. The options were just given for the players, but if they had to stick him somewhere in a world with no player choice, he was written as gay. Technically, for all intents and purposes, Anders is canonically gay.
But it doesn't matter in the end. "Canon" is pointless because we can change it in games like this.
Not that I want to a start another arguement over Ander's sexuality, but with all of his blatant flirting with the ladies in Awakening wouldn't he qualify as cannonically bi?
Another "sort of" reply. Remember that he was written by a different author in Awakenings, and technically, to be fair, Awakenings is an expansion while DA II is a full game, so I'd probably argue the latter has more weight. My point is though that as the writers work on these characters they have a really specific idea of who they are and what they like and don't like. For example, Anders: he's technically bisexual because either sex can romance him, but the writer for him in DA II wrote him primarily as homosexual. It's also seen in how other characters are written too: for example Alistair is technically straight so far as we know, but the writer has admitted that Alistair would date anyone he felt he could trust, which means that by the writer's work, he's technically bisexual, etc.
Technically, you could argue about it (which is fine), but in a series like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, that's probably as close to "canon" as anything gets.
I hope that made sense...
#9888
Guest_Ferris95_*
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 07:06
Guest_Ferris95_*
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FoxHound109 wrote...
Ferris95 wrote...
FoxHound109 wrote...
ElitePinecone wrote...
There is no canon. Never has been, never will be.
Every player interpretation of the universe is equally valid. Bioware have always said that - Shepard is a blank slate whose story and universe we can shape.
If a choice appears in the game, and the player makes it, then that choice becomes 'canon' for that player in that playthrough.
Other than that there's no 'official' canon floating around. If a character can be romanced by either gender, it's because they are attracted to, in some way or another, either gender of Shepard.
Kind of. It depends on the writers, to be honest. Anders was written to be gay for Dragon Age II, not bi or heterosexual. The options were just given for the players, but if they had to stick him somewhere in a world with no player choice, he was written as gay. Technically, for all intents and purposes, Anders is canonically gay.
But it doesn't matter in the end. "Canon" is pointless because we can change it in games like this.
Not that I want to a start another arguement over Ander's sexuality, but with all of his blatant flirting with the ladies in Awakening wouldn't he qualify as cannonically bi?
Another "sort of" reply. Remember that he was written by a different author in Awakenings, and technically, to be fair, Awakenings is an expansion while DA II is a full game, so I'd probably argue the latter has more weight. My point is though that as the writers work on these characters they have a really specific idea of who they are and what they like and don't like. For example, Anders: he's technically bisexual because either sex can romance him, but the writer for him in DA II wrote him primarily as homosexual. It's also seen in how other characters are written too: for example Alistair is technically straight so far as we know, but the writer has admitted that Alistair would date anyone he felt he could trust, which means that by the writer's work, he's technically bisexual, etc.
Technically, you could argue about it (which is fine), but in a series like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, that's probably as close to "canon" as anything gets.
I hope that made sense...
No I get what you saying now, canon is fairly up in the air with both series and both sides could be argued.
#9889
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 08:33
Ryzaki
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...Anders was not written as primarily homosexual in DA2.
How you got that boggles my mind.
How you got that boggles my mind.
#9890
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 08:33
Chun Hei
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Even before DA2 came out I thought Anders could be a gay LI even with his flirting with females. Something about him just seemed "gay" to me. The gay men I know are very playful and flirty with women and I can testify their effectiveness at buttering me up and charming me into doing them [non-sexual] favors and Anders has a history of manipulating people to get what he wants even though much of what he wants is illegal.
The DA universe is like the ME universe where most people appear to be straight so I can easily see Anders trying his charms on female strangers before he would on males. He only makes a move on male Hawke when male Hawke treats him all nice and complimentary AFTER Anders leads him into an ambush where he is forced to kill a dozen templars inside the Chantry.
Bringing it back to ME the one thing that bothers me about so many fans' reaction to Anders is that we can expect a landslide of whining and moaning if and when Kaidan and Garrus are allowed to be s/s options and say anything remotely complimentary to Shepard without adding, "No ****** bro!"
The DA universe is like the ME universe where most people appear to be straight so I can easily see Anders trying his charms on female strangers before he would on males. He only makes a move on male Hawke when male Hawke treats him all nice and complimentary AFTER Anders leads him into an ambush where he is forced to kill a dozen templars inside the Chantry.
Bringing it back to ME the one thing that bothers me about so many fans' reaction to Anders is that we can expect a landslide of whining and moaning if and when Kaidan and Garrus are allowed to be s/s options and say anything remotely complimentary to Shepard without adding, "No ****** bro!"
#9891
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 08:35
Chun Hei
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Ryzaki wrote...
...Anders was not written as primarily homosexual in DA2.
How you got that boggles my mind.
I think the gay romance had more emotional weight to it since he only goes into detail about his love for Karl with male Hawke. Still I think the "straight" romance worked well too but I liked the gay one better.
#9892
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 08:37
Ryzaki
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Chun Hei wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
...Anders was not written as primarily homosexual in DA2.
How you got that boggles my mind.
I think the gay romance had more emotional weight to it since he only goes into detail about his love for Karl with male Hawke. Still I think the "straight" romance worked well too but I liked the gay one better.
And that's your preferences. That doesn't make him primarily homosexual anymore than someone liking his straight romance more makes him primarily heterosexual.
#9893
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 08:47
Wulfram
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Whatever the electricity thing he did on Isabela was, it didn't sound like something a gay man would do.
#9894
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 09:17
FoxHound109
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Ryzaki wrote...
...Anders was not written as primarily homosexual in DA2.
How you got that boggles my mind.
I believe I read it in an interview. I have to find it though. It was a specific mention of how the character was primarily written as homosexual, with the large majority of details about his life only divulged in the homosexual romance option. The heterosexual romance option is supposed to be missing pieces of information (like his relationship with the mage he tries to rescued early on; his name escapes me right now. FAIL!).
#9895
Posté 06 septembre 2011 - 10:41
ElitePinecone
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Just to clear things up:
By 'there's no canon', I don't mean that writers can write characters to be canonically a certain sexuality. Of course they can, and they do.
But in the course of one particular playthrough, there's no 'canon' outcome.
It's not 'canon' that Shepard is a white heterosexual Soldier space marine who saved the Council, say. As soon as Shepard/Hawke does something, it becomes canon for that particular universe.
And no, Anders wasn't written as primarily homosexual. He had one or two lines of extra dialogue to explain his relationship with Karl (and to let the player know why he was open for s/s romance). Both versions of the romance were equally valid. It's like saying Liara was primarily an f/f romance because she had an extra dialogue option when femShep can point out that she's female.
Basically: in games with malleable narratives and player choice, if it's possible, it can be canon.
By 'there's no canon', I don't mean that writers can write characters to be canonically a certain sexuality. Of course they can, and they do.
But in the course of one particular playthrough, there's no 'canon' outcome.
It's not 'canon' that Shepard is a white heterosexual Soldier space marine who saved the Council, say. As soon as Shepard/Hawke does something, it becomes canon for that particular universe.
And no, Anders wasn't written as primarily homosexual. He had one or two lines of extra dialogue to explain his relationship with Karl (and to let the player know why he was open for s/s romance). Both versions of the romance were equally valid. It's like saying Liara was primarily an f/f romance because she had an extra dialogue option when femShep can point out that she's female.
Basically: in games with malleable narratives and player choice, if it's possible, it can be canon.
#9896
Posté 07 septembre 2011 - 12:13
Abispa
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The argument over what's canon in a Bioware RPG is strange to say the least. Especially on this thread where we've said repeatedly that just because Garrus may be male Shepard's boy toy in another gamer's game doesn't mean he can't be your bro in your game.
#9897
Posté 07 septembre 2011 - 12:25
ChaplainTappman
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@Abispa: don't you understand? It's not important what's the canon story. It's only important that my Shepard is more canon than your Shepard.
#9898
Posté 07 septembre 2011 - 02:06
ElitePinecone
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Abispa wrote...
The argument over what's canon in a Bioware RPG is strange to say the least. Especially on this thread where we've said repeatedly that just because Garrus may be male Shepard's boy toy in another gamer's game doesn't mean he can't be your bro in your game.
Yeah. It was all started because someone suggested that characters could be 'canonically' straight while being 'gay' in a playthrough. Or that Bioware would 'declare' them as straight so s/s playthroughs would be canonical.
Which I disagree with totally....
#9899
Posté 07 septembre 2011 - 06:11
Ryzaki
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FoxHound109 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
...Anders was not written as primarily homosexual in DA2.
How you got that boggles my mind.
I believe I read it in an interview. I have to find it though. It was a specific mention of how the character was primarily written as homosexual, with the large majority of details about his life only divulged in the homosexual romance option. The heterosexual romance option is supposed to be missing pieces of information (like his relationship with the mage he tries to rescued early on; his name escapes me right now. FAIL!).
Sorry but until you can provide I link to me this is a flat out lie.
There is no large majority of details divulged in the homosexual romance option. You just get the bit with Karl. That's it. That's the only thing the heterosexual romance is missing.
And kind of hard to write a character as primarily homosexual when you have him talking about how how he enjoyed sleeping with one of the female companions. (Isabela).
#9900
Posté 07 septembre 2011 - 11:44
syllogi
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FoxHound109 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
...Anders was not written as primarily homosexual in DA2.
How you got that boggles my mind.
I believe I read it in an interview. I have to find it though. It was a specific mention of how the character was primarily written as homosexual, with the large majority of details about his life only divulged in the homosexual romance option. The heterosexual romance option is supposed to be missing pieces of information (like his relationship with the mage he tries to rescued early on; his name escapes me right now. FAIL!).
Yeah, I'd have to see this interview to believe it. Bisexual people are completely capable of withholding information, or giving information, to a potential mate. It doesn't mean that Anders is less interested in a heterosexual romance in FHawke when he doesn't tell her about Karl...it means that he didn't know how she'd react, or told her later, offscreen, than he would a male character.
A bisexual person who engages in a relationship with a person of either gender is capable of "real" love with a person of either gender. It's not "more real" with one gender or the other.
