25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

And I imagine that Merrill may have been a cause of concern since she and all the female elves looks like human preteen girls, thus the one piece instead of the traditional bikinis.

You must know human preteen girls with more impressive breasts than I have...

[ElitePinecone]

We're getting really off topic, and into... pretty strange areas.

Try to get it back on track to stop this getting locked.

One thing I've been wondering for a while: do people think s/s has a (permanent?) place in Bioware games now? Should they be held to that standard, or is that asking too much? Is it fair that people just about expect a Bioware game to feature a wide range?

I mean, they're just about the only developer I can think of that actually puts story-driven same-sex romance options for the protagonist in their games. Others have them (Fable and it looks like Skyrim) but they're very, very shallow with random NPCs.

If the Mass Effect series does continue in some form or another - as an MMO, say, or another RPG trilogy - would you expect s/s options from day one? Things have (clearly) changed since 2007's Mass Effect, given that they're featuring in ME3.

[who would know]

I'm gonna expect it, yeah.

Not having played ME1 first and knowing nothing about ME2 when I started it, I actually had the wild notion in my head that ME2 would feature M/M romance. I'd heard about Bioware's reputation for inclusiveness, and there was a little bit of controversy on the news, so I just made that assumption. Eventually, I got impatient and used GameFaqs to find out what my choices were. Jack? Cool, lemme just google images that...



Oh.

Modifié par who would know, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[ScotGaymer]

Didnt and dont mean to drive people off topic but I am finding myself astounded that people in this thread of all places do not know the difference between homosexual/gay and bisexual or being in a homosexual relationship.

I am quite literally gob smacked.

Theres a difference between being in a homosexual relationship and being homosexual. Being a homosexual/gay is being exclusively attracted to members of the same sex wether you act on it or not - you are gay. Being heterosexual you are exclusively attracted to members of the opposite sex wether you act on it or not - you are straight. Being bisexual you are attracted to both sexes but not necessarily equally (you might like men more or women more but still like both) - you are neither straight nor gay but bi instead.

Being in a homosexual relationship (ie a relationship with a member of the same sex) can be undertaken by both homosexuals and bisexuals; but it isnt the same as being gay. And to label them as such is as offensive to bisexuals (not to mention incredibly ignorant) as it is to refer to straight people as "breeders" or gay people as "poofters".

Back on topic.

I dont necessarily think that SS should be an automatic inclusion in BW games because we dont know what kind of games BW are going to create in future.

I mean if BW decide to create a more defined game with a more defined protagonist than they have in the past; then that protagonist might well be heterosexual, or asexual. Romance might not enter into it at all.
For example I wouldnt have minded that Shepard was "straight" in Mass Effect if that was the only available option, but it blatantly wasnt. She could be homosexual or bisexual and be in what is in effect from her perspective a homosexual relationship with Liara and a pseudo homosexual relationship with Kelly. But he could not, he had no choice.

For me it was the blatant hypocracy and double standards that on the face of it looked like some homophobic higher up in Bioware put the kybosh onto SS romance in the start, that was the problem more than anything else.
Thankfully Bioware FINALLY realised that this had the potential to really blow up in their faces in a PR sense and decided to finally include it in ME3 if only for fairness reasons.

If the protagonist is a player defined character then yes SS romance should be an automatic IF BW are including romance at all. If the protagonist is Bioware defined then I wouldnt mind it being OS romance only IF they included romance in said hypothetical game.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 08 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[ElitePinecone]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
If the protagonist is a player defined character then yes SS romance should be an automatic IF BW are including romance at all. If the protagonist is Bioware defined then I wouldnt mind it being OS romance only IF they included romance in said hypothetical game.

I think the same way. A pre-defined character is fine as long as it's clear that it's pre-defined. 

Bioware are pretty much known for their games with player-created protagonists, though, so I wouldn't really expect many of their future games to go down that path (unless they completely overhaul their game designs).

[elearon1]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
Being a homosexual/gay is being exclusively attracted to members of the same sex wether you act on it or not - you are gay. Being heterosexual you are exclusively attracted to members of the opposite sex wether you act on it or not - you are straight.

That's not precisely accurate.  Have you ever heard of the Kinsey scale?  It is a scale 0-6 (with purely hetero at one end, and purely ****** at the other) which rates where a person is, sexually, at various points in their lives.  It is fairly rare for a person to remain at either extreme, but rather people tend to shift up and down the scale throughout their life.

Additionally, sexuality has more than one element.  A person can be psychologically attracted to a member of the same sex while not being physically attracted, or vice versa.  

Kinsey is only one source on the subject, but his findings are pretty widely accepted among the psychological community. (these days, there was some disagreement with his methods at the time, but subsequent research has supported his work)

Wikipedia has a pretty good writeup here: http://en.wikipedia..../Kinsey_Reports

[shepskisaac]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If the Mass Effect series does continue in some form or another - as an MMO, say, or another RPG trilogy - would you expect s/s options from day one? Things have (clearly) changed since 2007's Mass Effect, given that they're featuring in ME3.

I would say yes, if it wasn't for the recent announcement there won't be same-gender romance arcs in TOR. Officially, and supported by evidence from the past, all parties involved have history of LGBT themes/characters inclusion and don't have anything against s/s. Yet TOR won't have gay romances, only straight ones. Why? Million dollar question. That's why I won't take it from granted yet.

But it sure is becoming a standard in the industry, at least for the RPGs with non-defined paragonists and games that have romances/flings with multiple options of some sort in general. Skyrim will have same-sex romances (and marriage), Fable had, The Sims, Bully, New Vegas (small but still, by not flirting with the opposite-sex the players could unlock exclusive s/s flirt lines and bonuses). The list is growing and frankly, with TOR not having it, it feels like BioWare who practically pioniereed s/s inclusion is now sometimes either staying behind (TOR) or catching-up very late (ME3). It is especially ironic considering one of their own teams (Dragon Age) has been implementing s/s romances from day 1.

[Ryzaki]

MACharlie1 wrote...
Then we're talking about blacks and whites and grey being only one shade of grey.

How much into the same sex does someone need to be attracted to in order to be considered a homosexual? Can someone who sits on the heterosexual side of the sexuality spectrum, though not at it's extreme, be considered gay and/or bi? I don't believe so - at least not in this society where the majority won't admit that they have even the slightest attraction to the same sex.  

 

*shrugs* Heck if I know. People just pick whichever label they feel closest describes them. 

[ScotGaymer]

elearon1 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...
Being a homosexual/gay is being exclusively attracted to members of the same sex wether you act on it or not - you are gay. Being heterosexual you are exclusively attracted to members of the opposite sex wether you act on it or not - you are straight.

That's not precisely accurate.  Have you ever heard of the Kinsey scale?  It is a scale 0-6 (with purely hetero at one end, and purely ****** at the other) which rates where a person is, sexually, at various points in their lives.  It is fairly rare for a person to remain at either extreme, but rather people tend to shift up and down the scale throughout their life.

Additionally, sexuality has more than one element.  A person can be psychologically attracted to a member of the same sex while not being physically attracted, or vice versa.  

Kinsey is only one source on the subject, but his findings are pretty widely accepted among the psychological community. (these days, there was some disagreement with his methods at the time, but subsequent research has supported his work)

Wikipedia has a pretty good writeup here: http://en.wikipedia..../Kinsey_Reports

Firstly this is a theory that has largely been debunked as inaccurate.

Secondly that is what "bisexual" means. Bisexual is the term that refers to everyone that finds SS and OS attractive in any degree instead of finding only SS (gay) or OS (straight) attractive.

As a homosexual myself (as in 100% gay not attracted to women at all) I have known many bisexual men in my life. Some only like to have sex with guys now and again and wouldnt really go out with a guy, some like both round about equally, some only think of women as sex objects and men for relationships, and some have a degree of preference for one over the other.

The kinsey scale is the quantifying of sexuality by degrees. Thats it.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 08 septembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[DoomBlackDragon]

I am for it.

I am going be honost. I find Same Sex Romance to be only gay in the game but straight for the player when you think about it. I know that does not make sence unless I explain it.

I am a guy and I like women. So I am going play a female shepard cause I do not want to spend the next 30+ hours looking at a dudes ass. With this I do not want to walk up to a male character in the game and have them start hitting on me. I have nothing with gays or lesbians but it just does not work for me. So by making a female shepard dating a female character. It feels straight to me. Alot of us hit on character we would love to date in Real life. So by hitting on a character of the same sex it more heterosexaul then homosexaul. Because your hitting on a npc your are attactive to. While at the same time playing a main character you are attachive too.

I know I am not the only person that does this. So players raise your hand if you play an the opposite sex shepard because you want to look at a character you think is hot. Raise your hand if you want to have your shepard dating the same sex character that you find is the most attractive.

[Abispa]

I am all for s/s options being in EVERY player-choice game, while it is all right that The Witcher is a heterosexual male **** since he's an established character (even based on a novel character as I understand it).

And I think that all LIs should be "bi" by default unless there's some story based reason why s/he shouldn't be. In a way Sebastian was such a character. Not only was he "straight," but Lady Hawke could only romance him in a rivalry, AND he apparently won't sleep with her until they're married.

[MACharlie1]

Abispa wrote...
And I think that all LIs should be "bi" by default unless there's some story based reason why s/he shouldn't be. In a way Sebastian was such a character. Not only was he "straight," but Lady Hawke could only romance him in a rivalry, AND he apparently won't sleep with her until they're married.

Untrue.

Sebastian could only be romanced by a Lady Hawke who had not flirted with anyone else in the game. Friend or rival can romance him. And it's not that he won't sleep with her until they are married - he won't sleep with her PERIOD. I believe he refers to it as a "chaste marriage"...yeah we'll see how long that lasts, o Prince. 

DoomBlackDragon wrote...
I know I am not the only person that does this. So players raise your hand if you play an the opposite sex shepard because you want to look at a character you think is hot. Raise your hand if you want to have your shepard dating the same sex character that you find is the most attractive.

What about us homos who are playing the male Shepard because he's hot? 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:41 .

[Abispa]

[quote]MACharlie1 wrote...

Sebastian could only be romanced by a Lady Hawke who had not flirted with anyone else in the game. Friend or rival can romance him. And it's not that he won't sleep with her until they are married - he won't sleep with her PERIOD. I believe he refers to it as a "chaste marriage"...yeah we'll see how long that lasts, o Prince. 
[quote]

In the rival romance he will leave the Chantry, take over Starkhaven, and come back to claim Lady Hawke, if I remember that right. I thought the "chaste" part was only if he remained a brother in the Chantry. But since I've only experienced his romance by observing Chun Hei playing it (once), I may have misremembered stuff. Oh well.

Modifié par Abispa, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[Quething]

Sebastian will only sleep with a Rival femHawke. He can romance either femHawke, but friendmance culminates in a "chaste marriage" where they both swear into the clergy together and rivalmance ends in him saying he'll reclaim Starkhaven with Hawke as his princess.

I know a few ace players who appreciate the ability to have a chaste romance that's treated as valuable and real, so it's arguable that Sebastian too is a respectful inclusion of non-heteronormative sexuality. Points all around for the DA team.

Oh and yeah, blankets over a Warden and lover would be a nightmare. But that's not to say the DA2 post-coital scenes weren't largely an artistic fail nonetheless; at the very least the lighting was awful, far too much ambient and not enough directional (a routine problem in DA2, the lighting in that game is awful in general). A model for tousled bedsheets lying underneath Hawke and Merrill, or tighter camera angles on sitting-up-looking-at-Fenris Hawke to preserve the illusion of nudity (or, y'know, a completely nude body seen from behind, to preserve femHawke's modesty) would have been quite doable, and made a real difference.

Admittedly allowing s/s romance does add to the complexity and workload of that kind of thing, because you do then have to account for both male and female PCs in every scene, and ideally every scene is already unique to account for the difference between the LIs (one thing post-ME1 games have done better than ME1). If the romance budget gets tight and they have to start cutting down the animation labor, I *would* rather have slightly silly concessions to American prudishness than see them crop s/s instead.

Because I do expect s/s in all BioWare games, to at least part of the extent that they put o/s in any given game. It's one of the major reasons I've been such a loyal fan over the years. Something like the TOR announcement, to me, is extremely disappointing, and it feels like them failing to live up to their own established standards.

(if they made a game like the Witcher with a fixed protagonist, then yes, I wouldn't mind so much if that character were straight, but I probably wouldn't buy it, because player-defined characters are the other major reason I play BioWare games).

[Homebound]

lets compromise.

[ODST 3]

I guess nobody Shepard's come across has been gay so far. I bet this Vega lad will change that.

[KawaiiKatie]

ODST 3 wrote...

I guess nobody Shepard's come across has been gay so far.

Maybe not openly gay...

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 09 septembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[zingro]

My Femshep made a slip of the tongue remark about tipping the velvet to Liara, she was... amused:whistle:



She so cute<3

[Quething]

Haha, that "let's go again!" never fails to crack me up.

[Jpersons]

sorry if this doesnt have to do with anythin that people are saying right now i just wana get somkind of my word in here

thats the thing about mass effect, i necer DA but the mass effect universe is SOO FLAT, its great that  somthing to somone is totally diffrent for another player...i have three characters in ME  now.and each of them are difrent for story reassons that i kinda made up or just filled in my main first shep, yeah shes gay i dont even get how she coldnt be...you might not even know some of the characters in the game if you play through it a way
so im glad that you can make a male shep thats gay, i just hope theres more options for both sides.ther was  only one for gay femshep..........and of cours for  straight peope to.and all that

[Knight of Dane]

Quething wrote...

Haha, that "let's go again!" never fails to crack me up.

Pick that every time too!

[ElitePinecone]

Jpersons wrote...

sorry if this doesnt have to do with anythin that people are saying right now i just wana get somkind of my word in here

thats the thing about mass effect, i necer DA but the mass effect universe is SOO FLAT, its great that  somthing to somone is totally diffrent for another player...i have three characters in ME  now.and each of them are difrent for story reassons that i kinda made up or just filled in my main first shep, yeah shes gay i dont even get how she coldnt be...you might not even know some of the characters in the game if you play through it a way
so im glad that you can make a male shep thats gay, i just hope theres more options for both sides.ther was  only one for gay femshep..........and of cours for  straight peope to.and all that

Thanks!

I think that's the brilliance of Bioware's games - you find yourself making decisions purely because they'll fit that particular Shepard. 

And I think your hope will be met: the developers have said there'll be more romance options in ME3. 

[Athayniel]

phew... just finished reading the entire thread and boy are my arms tired.

Anyways... I've mentioned this in a post on an earlier page but I'll reiterate here with some added context. If I had my druthers, all romancable NPCs would be available to everyone by default and only locked out based on some criteria for story reasons. Such criteria could be differing ideology, conflicts of interest, unavailabilty due to prior relationship (if the NPC isn't willing to be unfaithful) or because of some vow of celibacy or some driving mission which precludes romantic entanglements. Notice that nowhere do I mention gender because to be honest I think you have to work *very* hard on a story to create a compelling reason to exclude romance based on gender without it simply being 'most people aren't gay'. Sure, that could be used, it seems lazy to me, especially if ignoring gender doesn't take away from the story. Those wouldn't be the only reasons I could see being used but I'm sure you get the idea. They're reasons grounded in the story.

I come at this from the perspective of a heterosexual male gamer who loves RPGs and loves RPGs which give me even more choices to make. I love knowing that there are branching paths to the story I'm playing through even if I choose not to take them or they all end up at the same place anyway when all is said and done. I like playing with the romances and will very rarely not pursue at least one if it is available. I have been known to change my mind about which LI to pursue halfway through a story – I'm looking at you Silk Fox you saucy temptress – when the choice is presented. I'm also fond of playing female characters and exploring the story as presented to them and looking for the subtle differences. Admittedly any reactions I have when doing so is coloured by my maleness and I can't help that so I admit I tend to play them all as if they are attracted to women. I've never pursued any male LIs but only because none of them has ever raised any interest in me. Which is the same as in real life, I consider myself straight, I'm easily attracted to a lot of women, I can see why some men are considered attractive though I've never felt any sort of stirrings myself, I've never met a guy I'd be willing to 'switch teams' for. I *have* been propositioned by a guy before, told him 'thanks but no' and didn't feel threatened by it.

All of this leaves me with the opinion that all LIs should be romanceable by both genders. It would be unlikely I'd ever pursue a male LI but I can't fathom any reason why they should be restricted by gender so as to deny the gaymers out there. This denial for the sake of denial is not a mindset I can wrap my brain around. After that it's just a matter of implementation.

I'm not an advocate of a 'gay toggle' as such. I understand where some are uncomfortable with the prospect of unwanted attention from NPCs but I don't see a pressing need to 'turn off the gay' so to speak. After all, my femSheps usually have to give Kaidan a firm 'No' at some point in any given ME1 playthrough just as my manSheps might have to turn down Ashley or Liara. Why provide a way to switch off s/s flirting while not doing the same for o/s flirting? What I do take issue with is the presumed hetersexuality without player input in certain parts of the story. I'm not speaking of the way other characters such as Aria assume Shepard's orientation, but how the devs choose to have Shepard react to things. An example would be the way femShep speaks with Jacob, or certain expressions manShep makes to women making subtle or not so subtle advances on him. So I wouldn't get rid of other characters flirting with Shepard, but I wouldn't be averse to allowing folks more control of how Shepard responds, even down to the availability of the responses. A way to mark Shepard as being a particular orientation so that options to flirt with certain characters are never even put on the dialogue wheel is not something with which I would take issue. Especially if such a mark can be changed whenever the player wants as many times as they want. Implementation details. Granted, a player could just avoid the obviously flirtatious dialogue options, but it might allow the devs to provide for finer control over Shepard's responses in such situations.

So I'm an 'everyone is bi' advocate, though I understand that ME3 is unlikely to allow that for logistical reasons. I do believe it is the most equitable solution when romances are implemented correctly, and when they're not implemented correctly it's hardly an issue exclusive to the bi romances. Arguments against them always seem to come in the same flavours slinging around words like 'laziness' and 'retcon' and 'immersion' and 'realism' and they universally leave me scratching my head or facepalming incredulously.

As far as prefered s/s options go... pie in the sky choices would be something like Miranda, Ashley, 'Vigilante' (and the not female Liara) for romanceable ladies. I have no real preferences for any of the guys but I can see Kaidan is a massive favourite while Vega and Joker also have a great following. I do think an alien LI to balance out Liara would be a good idea but really don't understand why the prospect of Garrus engenders such a panic in many players. I haven't played all the way through ME2 yet as I've only just recently bought it after taking a long break from gaming in general, but I remember he wasn't my 'bro' in ME1. He was the hotshot cowboy cop who backed down at the first sign of my Shep's disapproval. If he defended his cowboy copness a little more stridently I might have had more respect for him. As it is I don't see things changing so much through my ME2 playthrough so far.

Well... that was a lot of... stuff.... I apologize, but I have just finished catching up on nearly four hundred pages and this is the result.

[Siansonea]

Nice post Athayniel, and props to you for reading the entire thread. Even I haven't done that, and I started it!