25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

Siansonea II wrote...

Nice post Athayniel, and props to you for reading the entire thread. Even I haven't done that, and I started it!

[Abispa]

Athayniel wrote...

If he defended his cowboy copness a little more stridently I might have had more respect for him. As it is I don't see things changing so much through my ME2 playthrough so far.

I know what you mean. I actually like a character I don't like (like Jack or Morrigan) being part of my team if s/he is written well. Much better than having a character on the team I don't like because I think the writers have failed (Miranda).

I blame the "wimpy" party members on Bioware's reluctance to create characters who don't spend the entire game backing down from the player's awesomeness, or don't immediately start buttering up the player's character for being so cool and sexy. If you read many of the post here in the BSN, you can understand why they feel the need to model characters this way.

I know she has her fans, and I wanted to be one of them, but Miranda really grates on me for the swiftness she goes from being the alpha female challenger to Shepard groupie. At least Morrigan stayed a pain in the butt so long as I didn't "cheat" and bribed her with presents. And even then she was still a pain in the butt.

[lazuli]

Abispa wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

If he defended his cowboy copness a little more stridently I might have had more respect for him. As it is I don't see things changing so much through my ME2 playthrough so far.

I know what you mean. I actually like a character I don't like (like Jack or Morrigan) being part of my team if s/he is written well. Much better than having a character on the team I don't like because I think the writers have failed (Miranda).

I blame the "wimpy" party members on Bioware's reluctance to create characters who don't spend the entire game backing down from the player's awesomeness, or don't immediately start buttering up the player's character for being so cool and sexy. If you read many of the post here in the BSN, you can understand why they feel the need to model characters this way.

I agree.  A lot of the regulars here seem to have insecurity issues.  The backlash over Aria speaks to this well enough.  It's nice having someone remind Shepard that the galaxy doesn't revolve around him or her from time to time.  I like Zaeed for this reason (among others), but he doesn't have enough dialogue to reveal whether he'd bend as easily as Miranda.

It will be interesting to see how these insecurities play out in ME3 with the male SS LI's.

[Chun Hei]

lazuli wrote...

It will be interesting to see how these insecurities play out in ME3 with the male SS LI's.

VEGA: Oh Shepard! I always wanted to ask you out but you are so awesome and stong! You have such nice big muscles and your butt is perfect! I am just a poor marine with no self esteem.

Male SHEPARD: How about we discuss this... in my quarters?

VEGA: Really!? All right! Let me go break up with Garrus first...

Modifié par Chun Hei, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:16 .

[Ryzaki]

lazuli wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

If he defended his cowboy copness a little more stridently I might have had more respect for him. As it is I don't see things changing so much through my ME2 playthrough so far.

I know what you mean. I actually like a character I don't like (like Jack or Morrigan) being part of my team if s/he is written well. Much better than having a character on the team I don't like because I think the writers have failed (Miranda).

I blame the "wimpy" party members on Bioware's reluctance to create characters who don't spend the entire game backing down from the player's awesomeness, or don't immediately start buttering up the player's character for being so cool and sexy. If you read many of the post here in the BSN, you can understand why they feel the need to model characters this way.

I agree.  A lot of the regulars here seem to have insecurity issues.  The backlash over Aria speaks to this well enough.  It's nice having someone remind Shepard that the galaxy doesn't revolve around him or her from time to time.  I like Zaeed for this reason (among others), but he doesn't have enough dialogue to reveal whether he'd bend as easily as Miranda.

It will be interesting to see how these insecurities play out in ME3 with the male SS LI's.

My issue with Aria came from Shep's dialogue not hers. It was either kiss her ass, or act like she put him in his place. There was no "...right you keep on thinking that." or even a funny dig. 

Then of course is the oddity that my Shepard has to go to her to get information bout Garrus in the first place.That was just...dumb. You don't have to go to her for Mordin. 

[JeffZero]

*waves to fellow same-sex relationship availability supporters; still feels proud about it coming true*

[Chun Hei]

*Waves back and filling out invitations to male Shepard's coming out party.*

[Athayniel]

Abispa wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

If he defended his cowboy copness a little more stridently I might have had more respect for him. As it is I don't see things changing so much through my ME2 playthrough so far.

I know what you mean. I actually like a character I don't like (like Jack or Morrigan) being part of my team if s/he is written well. Much better than having a character on the team I don't like because I think the writers have failed (Miranda).

If I recall correctly, your main issue with Miranda was that her development from Cerberus loyalist to Shepard groupie happened in the blink of an eye during one of the last missions as opposed to gradually over the course of the game. And that the intransigence and attitude she showed in the Prologue never really made it onto the Normandy with the rest of her baggage, literal or figurative. I can understand that. I remember the Lost Operative N7 mission I did where I had the option of transmitting Cerberus intel to the Alliance. I was expecting at least some sort of reaction from her as she's standing right over my shoulder when I send the data to the Alliance but instead the mission just ended with only an email from Anderson waiting for me on my terminal as a result. O_o I was hoping for an argument.

Apart from these troublesome voids in her writing I'm liking her character and wish she weren't locked to o/s romancing.

I think my favourite moments so far are the dialogues with Mordin, especially the way the camera shifts get faster and more dramatic the further he gets into his rambling.

[Athayniel]

Siansonea II wrote...

Nice post Athayniel, and props to you for reading the entire thread. Even I haven't done that, and I started it!

Yeah, except now I have to find something else to become my go to read for when I have time to spare. Or I could just play more ME and DA... hrm...

[ElitePinecone]

I've been reading some other threads (and some earlier posts on this one), and something was kinda bugging me. 
A lot of people are assuming (wrongly) that (male)Shep was 'straight' in the first two games - which is a whole other issue about associating the character only with the male gender that I won't go into - but then they mention stuff about 'virgin gayShep' or 'coming out of the closet in ME3'. 

Woah woah woah. 

Shepard is in his/her 30s.

He/she had eighteen years before the Alliance - on Earth, on military ships or on a colony - where they'd have plenty of opportunities to get to know people. Not to mention the next ten years or so of training, studying and deployments - we've seen the rule against fraternisation isn't absolute. 

What I mean is: we've seen literally a few months out of the 30-35 years of the character's life. Presuming that a) Shepard's never had a romantic relationship before the Normandy and that nobody knows about Shepard's orientation is making some huge assumptions. 

It's hardly inconceivable that Shep's tendencies are widely known on the ship - Mass Effect has plenty of referenes to scuttlebutt (crew rumours) that float around all the time independent of what we hear in short snippits of conversation. 

I'd find it hugely contrived if ME3 featured a laboured 'coming out scene' where Shepard announces to his/her LI (because apparently asari aren't female, and the f/f option will be 'the first' s/s one for femSheps) that s/he's 'never felt this way before', etc. It's incredibly unnecessary, not to mention unbelievable. 

The game shouldn't make assumptions about Shepard's sexualty, but equally it should be left unstated that, if Shepard is interested in an m/m or f/f romance, it doesn't come as a gigantic surprise to everyone on the ship. 

Edit: weird formatting fixed

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 10 septembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[Cootie]

While I agree with Pinecone about the game making assumptions, I would actually like if someone was surprised, or even unsurprised, when Shepard's homosexuality becomes, well, open?
Is that a good word? Like, when there's no denying it.

I agree, the game shouldn't assume you're straight until proven otherwise, but I did enjoy those little conversations in Dragon Age where people asked you about you and your LI, and expressed their opinions etc.
I would personally love a sequence where someone goes "Oh, I didn't... I mean, you simply didn't seem like the type, is all."
And then you're given the opportunity to "justify your choice", express some political views, maybe a short elaboration?
I'm not saying that homosexuals should get access to extra conversations, maybe the same character assumes you're gay if you have a heterosexual relationship, and their gaydar's just broken?

[Dhiro]

@Cootie

Yes, that would be fun. I can see Wrex and maybe Garrus not being surprised. Tali and Liara maybe a little and Joker's jaw would hit the floor while he thank god.

[Chun Hei]

When I talk about my "virgin Shepards" or "Shepard's coming out party" I am being sarcastic. I have always assumed that my gay Shepards have had a sex life long before the events of ME even though Bioware did not until now. He has been lonely for the last three years though so the muscle tone in his arm must be amazing.

[Quething]

I... don't know. Everybody on the Normandy would have known main!Shep was a big ole ******. She was very social with her crew, and wouldn't have thought twice about telling Ash and Joker about fighting the first ten minutes of the Skyllian Blitz with no pants because she was in bed with a coed when the bombardment started, or commiserating with Garrus about sparring with some hot, infuriating woman turning into something else. If any of her crew were surprised - apart from maybe Grunt or Legion, who seem outside the gossip circuit, but then why would they care to begin with? - that would be BioWare applying unwelcome and inaccurate canon to my Shep's sexual orientation, and that would bother me.

On the other thumbstick, though, poor lonely dudeShep Micah is a very private person. Kaidan times twenty, you'd never catch him telling his commander of only six months about the boy who broke his heart. I'd expect Miranda and thus potentially Jacob to know, because it's part of her job, but if ME3 rolls around and Joker was like "yeah, we all saw how you looked at Alenko's ass, Commander," that would also be damn unwelcome.

Joker commenting about Jakarta's tendency to watch Ashley's, on the other hand, would be perfectly in-character. So I'm not sure that's something that BioWare should be deciding either way, at least not without some form of player input. Possibly if Joker was like, "What, really?" and you could choose either "My private life is need-to-know," and the rest of the conversation and game assumes that Shep's got a history of discretion, or you could choose "What, you couldn't tell?" and Joker responds "everyone knows you kiss boys, Commander. The question is why the hell Vega" or whatever.

[ElitePinecone]

 

Chun Hei wrote...
When I talk about my "virgin Shepards" or "Shepard's coming out party" I am being sarcastic. I have always assumed that my gay Shepards have had a sex life long before the events of ME even though Bioware did not until now. He has been lonely for the last three years though so the muscle tone in his arm must be amazing.

Sarcasm is hard to read on the internet  But even apart from your posts a bunch of people (usually those with a problem with S/S) have mentioned closets (or coming out parties), usually mockingly - I'd just hoped BW wouldn't actually do something like that. 

Quething wrote...
snip

This is a fair point, and I think it's a symptom of a deeper problem with these kind of games: how much of the character is invented by players in their mind, and how much is enforced by Bioware? 

I mean: people have roleplayed Shepard as a psychotic, misanthropic maniac who lives for killing (after the Torfan and Akuze origins, say), but are forced to watch while their characters act reasonably normally and friendly to random NPCs. Ditto if you play Shepard as an intensely private and reserved person but everyone acts like they know what's going on in the Commander's personal life. 

It's a pretty difficult problem to overcome. Like you say, some sort of dialogue option like 'I made it pretty obvious' or 'My personal life is my own' would make things better, immersion-wise. 

So yes, I agree it's quite possible that most of the crew has no idea of Shepard's sexuality, given the way some people play their characters. It might be hard to reconcile all the major ways it could be handled (everyone already knew because Shep told them offscreen, everyone suspected but Shep was private about it, nobody knew at all, etc). It might even be better to not handle it at all, and just have the romance occuring without surprised (or already-knowing) comments from other characters (apart from 'You and X are nice together", if they're following the DA2 model). 

My major concern was having a situation where Shepard him/herself 'admitted' their sexuality (or even worse, 'discovered' it after meeting Mr/Ms Right) - it wouldn't just be excruciating but also ridiculously anachronistic for 2185. Even if Shep is an intensely private person they would've known about that particular part of their personality for quite a while... 

[lazuli]

Quething, it's for those reasons that I imagine Bioware won't include a lot of commentary on it from peripheral characters. The Mass Effect series has never featured remarkably responsive interactions between squadmates, after all.

If ME3 is the game to break the mold, I would expect Bioware to treat the SS sexuality issue with kid gloves. I could be wrong. Maybe that's an aspect of their universe that they're ready to explore in greater depth, forum controversy be damned.

[Cootie]

Hmm, what if the one commenting/acting surprised wasn't a squad member, but someone like perhaps Conrad Verner?
Whatever sexuality your Shepard's got, he always assumed they were the other way around, because he was misinformed or..?

My point is that whoever's commenting doesn't necessarily have to be a part of Shepard's crew. Conrad's conversation could start off with "Oh, I heard a rumour that blah blah blah, but don't worry, I told them off."
And you can either lecture him or maybe lie, even?
Just considering roleplaying options.

Question is if that'd be fun for everyone. How would something like that affect your characters, Quething? O.o

[ChaplainTappman]

 I'm a straight male, and I typically play straight BroSheps. As I've mentioned here before, I'm thrilled to see Bioware include s/s romances in ME3, I'm just probably never going to eperience them first-hand. I think about it, and then it reminds me of this Questionable Content strip, and then I laugh, and then I lose my train of thought.

[NerdWithBigStick]

I'm not sure what there is to add to this mammoth thread, but I enivision events in ME3, as far as romance goes, to happen something like this:

Shepard involves himself with male team member. (Who actually initiates it is neither here nor there.)
Said member either flirts back or gives an embarrassed response indicating non-interest
They make it. Eventually. After lots of "Do you have a moment to talk?" during downtime.
One or two teammates remark upon it in passing, while following you around during a mission, maybe Jack, something like: "So. You and Kaidan, eh? Never took you for the romantic type, Shepard!" or Liara: "Shepard. I'm glad to see that you're happy with ... someone else."

I can't imagine that they would have any type of "coming out" conversation or scene, either between the LI or anyone else. They didn't make any thought of it in Dragon Age, I don't see why they would do so, in ME3, either. As it should be. 'Not a big deal. It just is.'  If people want to talk about "canon" -- I don't think Shepard would be the type to come out, hoenstly.  He would just BE.  It would be a non-issue. 

Now, maybe some people would WANT that kind of a big scene -- and there's nothing wrong with liking a little bit of drama. It is a dramatic story, after all! I just don't think that, given Bioware's record, it would play out that way.

The only contingency that would merit an extended explanation scene, I think, is if you romanced a female in the first two games and then romanced a male in the third game.  Even then, I imagine it would be scripted to be non-gender specific (i.e. Liara would react the same as if you had slept with another female.  Etc.)


PS. the comic strip referenced in the post above mine.  Pure win.  /thumbsup

Modifié par NerdWithBigStick, 10 septembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[zingro]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

 I'm a straight male, and I typically play straight BroSheps. As I've mentioned here before, I'm thrilled to see Bioware include s/s romances in ME3, I'm just probably never going to eperience them first-hand. I think about it, and then it reminds me of this Questionable Content strip, and then I laugh, and then I lose my train of thought.

You get a big cookie for making me lol.

[ChaplainTappman]

@ NerdWithBigStick: That's about all I feel like I'd need. I think Varric makes some offhand remark about BroHawke romancing Anders or Fenris, but that's it. My biggest concern regarding s/s romances, and the only reason I'd have a problem with them, is if Bioware made a huge deal about it. I doubt they will, though.

zingro wrote...

You get a big cookie for making me lol.

Well, I DO love cookies.

[catabuca]

NerdWithBigStick wrote...

I'm not sure what there is to add to this mammoth thread, but I enivision events in ME3, as far as romance goes, to happen something like this:

Shepard involves himself with male team member. (Who actually initiates it is neither here nor there.)
Said member either flirts back or gives an embarrassed response indicating non-interest
They make it. Eventually. After lots of "Do you have a moment to talk?" during downtime.
One or two teammates remark upon it in passing, while following you around during a mission, maybe Jack, something like: "So. You and Kaidan, eh? Never took you for the romantic type, Shepard!" or Liara: "Shepard. I'm glad to see that you're happy with ... someone else."

I can't imagine that they would have any type of "coming out" conversation or scene, either between the LI or anyone else. They didn't make any thought of it in Dragon Age, I don't see why they would do so, in ME3, either. As it should be. 'Not a big deal. It just is.'  If people want to talk about "canon" -- I don't think Shepard would be the type to come out, hoenstly.  He would just BE.  It would be a non-issue. 

Now, maybe some people would WANT that kind of a big scene -- and there's nothing wrong with liking a little bit of drama. It is a dramatic story, after all! I just don't think that, given Bioware's record, it would play out that way.

The only contingency that would merit an extended explanation scene, I think, is if you romanced a female in the first two games and then romanced a male in the third game.  Even then, I imagine it would be scripted to be non-gender specific (i.e. Liara would react the same as if you had slept with another female.  Etc.)


PS. the comic strip referenced in the post above mine.  Pure win.  /thumbsup

I agree with all of this.

Above all, we just have to look at BW's record to get an idea about how it will be implemented. They like understated. So do I. ^ You put it quite well when you said, "I don't think Shepard would be the type to come out, hoenstly.  He would just BE."

[Wulfram]

Kaidan seems to have been surprised by the idea that FemShep might prefer women.

[jeweledleah]

Wulfram wrote...

Kaidan seems to have been surprised by the idea that FemShep might prefer women.

he was surprised because in a prior conversation, Shepard assures him that she's interested in him and rumors about her and Liara are just that - rumors.  you cannot get the confrontation scene otherwise.  so of course he's surprised.  he thought Shepard told him differently.

[Wulfram]

jeweledleah wrote...

he was surprised because in a prior conversation, Shepard assures him that she's interested in him and rumors about her and Liara are just that - rumors.  you cannot get the confrontation scene otherwise.  so of course he's surprised.  he thought Shepard told him differently.

I think it's the prior conversation that I was referring to.  You may have to not deny the rumours to get the response I'm thinking of.