25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Destroy Raiden_]

I hated how Ash and Kaiden became one person in 2. Liara has been sense ME a s/s option and kelly should be continued as one but I don't think they should switch past LIs previously portrayed as hetro to s/s.

Once they make a new me universe series then they can bring in the clone LIs. In ME2 BW made clear efforts to make the crewLI options as friends,not interested,or LIs for their s/s and o/s sheps they shouldn't change that for 3.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 12 septembre 2011 - 03:50 .

[Azbeszt]

Just don't retcon characters. Please. Retconing. Is. Bad.

[bleetman]

Retconning doesn't mean what the vast majority of the internet seems to think it means.

Modifié par bleetman, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:54 .

[vorianxavier]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I hated how Ash and Kaiden became one person in 2. Liara has been sense ME a s/s option and kelly should be continued as one but I don't think they should switch past LIs previously portrayed as hetro to s/s.

Once they make a new me universe series then they can bring in the clone LIs. In ME2 BW made clear efforts to make the crewLI options as friends,not interested,or LIs for their s/s and o/s sheps they shouldn't change that for 3.

This again...how were Garrus and Tali portrayed in ME1? Please remind me.

And I don't think ME2 did a very good job at letting Shep have friendships with most of the crew. With potential LIs, if you don't romance them, you get very little development at all.

[vorianxavier]

Azbeszt wrote...

Just don't swoop characters. Please. Swooping. Is. Bad.

Fixed that for you.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

Retconning doesn't mean what the vast majority of the internet seems to think it means.

What, it doesn't mean "making a change to a character that I don't like"?

[AmyMac]

ElitePinecone wrote...

AmyMac wrote...
There should at least be some sort of closure for the ME2 romances -- even if they end up dying at some point in ME3.

Oh, definitely. Bioware have said there will be - just today Mac Walters said they'd acknowledge any past romance Shepard had, even if the character had died (and obviously if they survived there'll be some sort of conversation). 

But as for a 'new' romance with an 'old' character, all we've heard is that it'll only be available with some (i.e. not all) characters from previous games. 

If I had to make an educated guess, it'd be that they were referring to Ashley/Kaidan being newly available for s/s. ME2's characters were available 'recently' (in game terms) for m/f romances, and it'd be slightly odd if Bioware went to all the effort to make all of them appear in game as m/f options (let alone s/s options - the task for six characters who might have died would be immense). 

As opposed to the six ME2 romances, Ash and Kaidan are fairly interchangable (probably unfortunately so) and are comparatively easier, in my view, to justify as s/s. One or the other has to be in ME3 (whereas even with the temetry data Bioware can't assume that any ME2 character would be alive) and because of player choices and the way the default import for ME2 worked, only a very small percentage of ME2 imports into ME3 will have Ashley alive for femSheps and Kaidan alive for mSheps. If they wanted an ideal character to avoid controversy, A/K would be them. 

Of course all that is just my speculation - and I'm probably completely wrong. But I'd tend to think new opportunities for romances (m/f or s/s) with ME2 characters is less likely than new opportunities with Ashley/Kaidan. 

New characters, obviously, are guaranteed in some form - squadmates or random encounters. 

All my ME2 playthroughs are imports ... but then again I'm a geek who likes to roleplay my characters and ME1 is crucial to their development, IMO. Do the PS3 players have the option in the comic at the start of ME2 to pick Ash/Kaidan to survive?

[ChaplainTappman]

elektrego wrote...

Ever since I started that drinking game with the words "retcon", "fanservice" and "dating sim", I have been more drunk than sober ;-)

You mean you've been sober? You should switch to hard liquor.

[slienthunter5]

same sex romace I can"t wait.
I hope Hot Men. humans.<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3:devil::devil::police::O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:B)B)B)

[slienthunter5]

Jesus[god] bless Gays.amen!

[ladyvader]

AmyMac wrote...

All my ME2 playthroughs are imports ... but then again I'm a geek who likes to roleplay my characters and ME1 is crucial to their development, IMO. Do the PS3 players have the option in the comic at the start of ME2 to pick Ash/Kaidan to survive?

Yes, they do.  Genesis gives you the following choices:
Who dies at Virmire
Save the Council or not
Save the Rachni Queen or not
Wrex alive or dead
Human Councilor Undina or Anderson
LI Ash/Kaidan or Liara or Neither

[Quething]

jlb524 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Retconning doesn't mean what the vast majority of the internet seems to think it means.

What, it doesn't mean "making a change to a character that I don't like"?

@AmyMac: I'm pretty sure that yes, the PS3 comic allows you to choose which VS you get. Though since the comic comes after the intro with the dying SR-1... does that mean you always get Liara refusing to abandon ship before you go after Joker, or how did they work that? If so, kinda sucks, that's their one redeeming moment in ME2 for a new-to-the-franchise player.

*wanders off muttering angrily and off-topically about Horizon*


Aww, 'd! Though that makes me that much more curious about my question.

Modifié par Quething, 12 septembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[TheMarshal]

Quething wrote...

@AmyMac: I'm pretty sure that yes, the PS3 comic allows you to choose which VS you get. Though since the comic comes after the intro with the dying SR-1... does that mean you always get Liara refusing to abandon ship before you go after Joker, or how did they work that? If so, kinda sucks, that's their one redeeming moment in ME2 for a new-to-the-franchise player.

*wanders off muttering angrily and off-topically about Horizon*

I feel no sympathy to someone who's trying to get involved in a series by starting out with the second game, particularly when the first game can easily be found for $5-$10.

[jtav]

When you can find it and get it to run on your system, assuming you're not a PS3 player.

[TheMarshal]

jtav wrote...

When you can find it and get it to run on your system, assuming you're not a PS3 player.

I also have little sympathy for console players, but then again I'm a bit of a snob. 

[AmyMac]

Hah, I'll be an Xbox 360 loyalist until the day I die:P

My thought was directed towards a comment made about how the default VS if you start a new ME2 character is apparently the one who's the opposite gender of Shepard, and I was curious how much choice the PS3 players had -- so if Ash/Kaidan are same-sex options in ME3, they can have a ManShep with Kaidan alive or a FemShep with Ash alive to romance them.

[Ryzaki]

*hugs her PC close*

That said ME1's combat makes me wanna punch babies (blargh stupid sniper rifle in the beginning) so I don't blame anyone for skipping it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 septembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[ElitePinecone]

As far as I'm aware all PS3 players - and Xbox/PC players using Genesis - have an encounter with Liara on the Normandy, then they get to pick who survived on Virmire.

Whereas PC/Xbox ME2 new games with no import have the same-gender-to-Shepard human squadmate die on Virmire. Imported Shepards get the survivor, whichever one they picked.

Is that all correct?

The important point being: the huge amount of ME2 players who played a default new-game femShep on Xbox/PC will never have Ashley in ME3, ditto for those playing maleShep and Kaidan. If we combine them with the number of people who imported an ME save having killed off the same-gendered human character, it's likely that only a small minority of ME3 Shepards will have the same gendered VS alive.

Casey Hudson did say that based on their telemetry there "wasn't much love for Kaidan" (considering 80% of Shepards were male in ME2) - this is partly a result of Bioware's own decisions, in making default new game maleSheps have Ashley, but it's still significant.

I doubt many players who started the series at ME2 would've bothered to buy the Genesis comic and play through a save to keep the same-gendered VS alive in ME2. Or, at least, they'd be dwarfed by the hundreds of thousands who played a default new game in ME2 and had the opposite-gendered one.

@AmyMac: to answer your question, yeah PS3 players and PC/Xbox ones with the Genesis comic, who start a new game at ME2 without an import, can engineer a situation where Kaidan survives for maleShep and Ashley for femShep. But I doubt a large proportion of people would go to that effort, beyond those who want to set them up for possible s/s in ME3. The data Bioware has seems to confirm that.

[Quething]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Casey Hudson did say that based on their telemetry there "wasn't much love for Kaidan" (considering 80% of Shepards were male in ME2) - this is partly a result of Bioware's own decisions, in making default new game maleSheps have Ashley, but it's still significant.

Don't tell the fanficcers that ;_;

Actually, interesting thing about that. Fanfic, in the RPG gaming community, seems to break down pretty strongly along canon lines. For every f!Warden/Morrigan or m!Warden/Alistair fic, there are approximately one point four spittillion f!Warden/Leliana and m!Warden/Zevran fics. The vast majority of ME fic is f!Shep/Kaidan, and ME2 is f!Shep/Garrus. There's a sprinkling of dudeShep het in there about evenly distributed across "not Jack." All of the femslash is f!Shep/Liara. I can count the Miranda, Ash and Tali femslash I've seen on one hand each, and boyslash just... doesn't even exist.

DA2 fic, on the other hand, is every bit as likely to put m!Hawke with the boys as f!Hawke. It's actually more likely to put f!Hawke with Isabela and Merrill.

I see this with fanart. I see this with game-related Tumblrs and Twitters. I see this even right here on the BSN, in character threads; even as subtle a thing as how disorienting it is to go to the Ash thread and see everyone call Shepard "he" all the time, compared to going to the Merrill thread and seeing perpetual acknowledgement that Hawke might be female, makes a surprisingly large difference to how much I'm able to engage with and enjoy all the spec and discussion and creativity that we do to respond to what we love that makes up fannishness.

I'm sure there's a whole sociology essay to be written on what that says about the consumer base each franchise and game attracts, the way fans interact with their fannish media, with each other, with gender and sexuality in general, and so on and so forth and you know I'd actually even be interested to read it... but the actual point of all this is to say that:

When a video game gives me more options to play in the way I most enjoy in-game, it also increases my ability to interact as a fan in the way I most enjoy in the wider community. That almost seems obvious to the point of tautology once actually written down, but hey. I think it still bears saying.

Modifié par Quething, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[didymos1120]

ElitePinecone wrote...
 
Casey Hudson did say that based on their telemetry there "wasn't much love for Kaidan" (considering 80% of Shepards were male in ME2) - this is partly a result of Bioware's own decisions, in making default new game maleSheps have Ashley, but it's still significant.
 

He was specifically referring to data about ME1 games: most people chose to nuke Kaidan.  Default ME2 games don't enter into it at all because there's a "Played ME1" flag that gets set if you've imported an ME2 character, and none of the ME1 plot flags in the import table are set in a default game (this also provides an easy way for them to distinguish "Genesis" Sheps from import Sheps:  Genesis sets the "Played ME1" flag, but the import plot table is still left blank.  Genesis just sets the ME2 plot flags directly, which are stored in a separate, redundant table.  That second table with duplicates of the ME1 variables is why the "Paragon Conrad" fix works, BTW).  It's trivial for them to exclude those Shepards.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[ChaplainTappman]

@Quething: I don't want to sound rude, but I feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill with the "people referring to Shepard as 'he'" thing. Shepard, more than Hawke or the Warden, is tabula rasa, and I think that makes people put more of themselves into Shepard's identity. If 80% of people play a male Shepard, it seems like it'd make sense that they'd assume a male Shepard when talking about the game. This is especially so in a thread dedicated to a character that, thus far, we've only been able to romance as mShep.

I also think that part of it is just using a shorthand, in a manner of speaking. I know that when I first started posting here, I was very diligent in not assuming a gender for Shepard. But it's syntactically awkward to constantly do so, and it became obvious to me that most people assume a gender, and (for me at least) mentally acknowledge the fact that it could be different.

Re: the disparity in fanfic/art, I think that's a byproduct of what's shown in game. While there are some incredible people working on fanfic and fanart, the most are not fantastic writers/artists. They tend to parrot what's in the game, and for the ME universe that means hetero or Liara romances. Come ME3, I suspect we'll see a lot more diversity in fan creations.

[ElitePinecone]

didymos1120 wrote...
snip

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't quite sure what he meant by those Kaidan stats. And yeah, I had noticed the dual tables in the Gibbed save editor; judging from the way Bioware trawls through its stats it would be fairly easy for them to work out exactly who chose what. Regardless, if the 'nuked Kaidan' figure was only for ME1, the proportion of mShepards with him alive would probably be even smaller post-ME2, given that the only non-Genesis new game option involves Ashley being saved on Virmire. 

I'm not going to pretend to know how many players bought ME2 without ME, haven't subsequently used Genesis and used a maleShepard - but in my view it's a fair bet that they number in the hundreds of thousands, if not more. A significant part of the total ME fanbase. 

As Casey said, that shouldn't matter for how Bioware treats its characters - but considering how small the 'maleShep with Kaidan' and 'femShep with Ashley' imports will be for ME3 raises some interesting questions. 

Of course, ME3 might have a rudimentary save-game editor included from day one, and many more people might pick Kaidan for mShep or Ashley for femShep (sans deeper knowledge of the characters) - we don't really know at this point. 

[Abispa]

ElitePinecone wrote...

As Casey said, that shouldn't matter for how Bioware treats its characters - but considering how small the 'maleShep with Kaidan' and 'femShep with Ashley' imports will be for ME3 raises some interesting questions. 

Of course, ME3 might have a rudimentary save-game editor included from day one, and many more people might pick Kaidan for mShep or Ashley for femShep (sans deeper knowledge of the characters) - we don't really know at this point. 

Nah, there will just be a mission where you take the Project Lazarus base information to resurrect them.