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[shepskisaac]

78stonewobble wrote...
That in the year 214x after genetical engineering and the development of certaing child upbringing techniques there won't be any gay or bisexual human beings.

Well, considering FemShep's is turned on by big boobs and Kelly's leather stripper outfit, we can safely assume it didn't happen.

[ipgd]

78stonewobble wrote...

Ahem this might come off weirdly or offensively but it's just a thought experiment.

Someone mentioned something akin to that we couldn't guess of the sociological and/or religious aspects of a 214x something society by thinking of how it is in 2011.

That one is a can of worms... Otherwise people can make this argument.

That in the year 214x after genetical engineering and the development of certaing child upbringing techniques there won't be any gay or bisexual human beings.

Blaaah... Let's just take 2011 and call it 214x... Well as something we can recognize around us today.

Unless people have, you know, socially progressed past the point where they would want to genetically engineer the gay out of their kids.

[Ryzaki]

Shepard Lives wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

I dunno, I could see it working as a tsundere kinda thing.
"Shepard, I love you, but I have to kill you, but... god damnit!" *runs away*

Also I lol'd at this way harderthan I should've. 

[Siansonea]

@78stonewobble: Mass Effect takes place in 2183, the second game takes place two years later in 2185. But I think it's safe to say that eugenics hasn't taken over and changed the human genome so drastically that homosexuality dissappears from the human species. In any case, Let's Not Go There. It's rather off-topic anyway.

[78stonewobble]

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
That in the year 214x after genetical engineering and the development of certaing child upbringing techniques there won't be any gay or bisexual human beings.

Well, considering FemShep's is turned on by big boobs and Kelly's leather stripper outfit, we can safely assume it didn't happen.

In that case it would be an argument (a lousy one at best) to keep male/male romances out of the game... And that would be sad.

Actually I find it very fitting that with ME3 in 2012 coincides with my uncles gay marriage of 20 years now.

Well it was kinda off topic anyway... genetics vs. upbringing and what not.

Sadly I think that humanity will take quite a few more years than to 218x to get passed the mostly neanderthal stage.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 15 juin 2011 - 05:20 .

[ReveurIngenu]

stysiaq wrote...


And lesbian or lesbian-looking s/s romances are not enough to convince me that ss romances were truly availble in ME. Bluntly said - two girls are easier on the eyes than two guys. Most of the gamers are guys, and as "the internet is for porn", ME wasn't THAT groundbreaking in these terms. Even DA:O had more courage, even if the pants were still on the arses.

And when will you get it through you head that your opinion =/= fact?<_<

[Dayshadow]

TommyServo wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...


Of course Bioware can do whatever they please, for good or for bad. But I think the concern isn't over what they can fabricate to excuse such an unlikely change in sexuality, but rather, that it will be forced and out of character. Not because it's pivotol to the plot. Not because it makes sense and everyone could see it coming. Not because it would make a good subplot. But the only reason it would be, quite literally, thrown in is to appease a few people at the expense of everyone else. Resources are not infinite. Whatever goes to devising all these intricate love webs is taking away neutral dialog that everyone can enjoy. Mass Effect games don't have enough conversations as it is. Bioware certainly doesn't need to shrink it even more at everyone's expense for the sake of an tiny minority.

By the the same token, streamlining the romances in such a way as to make all LIs bisexual and having one well-done cinematic where mShep and femShep are interchangeable guarantees pleasing the greatest amount of fans for the least amount of work and capital expenditure, freeing up resources for things like sidequests and other content that "everyone" can enjoy.

That argument cuts both ways, is all I'm saying.

It will never happen that way. They cannot make the same dialog for a heterosexual romance as they would for a homosexual equivalent without watering it down. Everyone loses in this scenario. I'm not sure if this is why DA2's companion interactions felt so artificial, limited and lackluster in their implimentation, but it was definitely atrocious imo.

There will be no uproar if previously straight characters remain straight. The vast majority of people will be OK with this. You cannot please everyone. If you can only please one faction it should be the majority.

4 out of 5 players play maleshep. This is the very reason that Kaidan is dead in the majority of playthroughs. I always found it a misjudgement on Bioware's part to pit a male against a female in a male dominated genre, especially when the two are LIs. Of course "there is no love for Kaidan" which isn't a  jab at his character, but gender. Of those 1 out of 5 femsehps, a male is playing them in the majority of cases and romances Liara. Femshep's bisexuality is for the sake of male players, not homosexual female players. Liara is not a gay option for femshep. She is a male option for those men playing a femshep. Of all males players maybe 5% are gay (and I'm being generous).

Should the entire game be rearranged, quite probably for the worst, because a handful of people want something? There are plenty of other minorities groups in the category of sexuality. Why should gays be given preference? I have no problem with there being a new gay romance(s) (even though the exclusion of other minorities makes gay appeasment an unfair practice), but when homosexuality is injected into the equation on a scale far exceeding its actual demand and population percentage I have a problem with it.

[78stonewobble]

Just to clarify a bit: Romance part of the game for me is around 10-20 percent. Main story and universe is atleast 40 and the action part (where we do spend quite a bit of time) is around 40 percent.

If I had to describe the importance of these aspects.

[shepskisaac]

78stonewobble wrote...
In that case it would be an argument (a lousy one at best) to keep male/male romances out of the game... And that would be sad.

How so? They could get rid of 'gayness' in males but not females? Makes no sense.

[ipgd]

Dayshadow wrote...

Should the entire game be rearranged, quite probably for the worst, because a handful of people want something?

Yes.

[Epic Legion]

No.

[Siansonea]

Dayshadow wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...


Of course Bioware can do whatever they please, for good or for bad. But I think the concern isn't over what they can fabricate to excuse such an unlikely change in sexuality, but rather, that it will be forced and out of character. Not because it's pivotol to the plot. Not because it makes sense and everyone could see it coming. Not because it would make a good subplot. But the only reason it would be, quite literally, thrown in is to appease a few people at the expense of everyone else. Resources are not infinite. Whatever goes to devising all these intricate love webs is taking away neutral dialog that everyone can enjoy. Mass Effect games don't have enough conversations as it is. Bioware certainly doesn't need to shrink it even more at everyone's expense for the sake of an tiny minority.

By the the same token, streamlining the romances in such a way as to make all LIs bisexual and having one well-done cinematic where mShep and femShep are interchangeable guarantees pleasing the greatest amount of fans for the least amount of work and capital expenditure, freeing up resources for things like sidequests and other content that "everyone" can enjoy.

That argument cuts both ways, is all I'm saying.

It will never happen that way. They cannot make the same dialog for a heterosexual romance as they would for a homosexual equivalent without watering it down. Everyone loses in this scenario. I'm not sure if this is why DA2's companion interactions felt so artificial, limited and lackluster in their implimentation, but it was definitely atrocious imo.

There will be no uproar if previously straight characters remain straight. The vast majority of people will be OK with this. You cannot please everyone. If you can only please one faction it should be the majority.

4 out of 5 players play maleshep. This is the very reason that Kaidan is dead in the majority of playthroughs. I always found it a misjudgement on Bioware's part to pit a male against a female in a male dominated genre, especially when the two are LIs. Of course "there is no love for Kaidan" which isn't a  jab at his character, but gender. Of those 1 out of 5 femsehps, a male is playing them in the majority of cases and romances Liara. Femshep's bisexuality is for the sake of male players, not homosexual female players. Liara is not a gay option for femshep. She is a male option for those men playing a femshep. Of all males players maybe 5% are gay (and I'm being generous).

Should the entire game be rearranged, quite probably for the worst, because a handful of people want something? There are plenty of other minorities groups in the category of sexuality. Why should gays be given preference? I have no problem with there being a new gay romance(s) (even though the exclusion of other minorities makes gay appeasment an unfair practice), but when homosexuality is injected into the equation on a scale far exceeding its actual demand and population percentage I have a problem with it.

How is any of this on-topic?

[78stonewobble]

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
In that case it would be an argument (a lousy one at best) to keep male/male romances out of the game... And that would be sad.

How so? They could get rid of 'gayness' in males but not females? Makes no sense.

Since it wouldn't be confirmed/written in stone in "canon"... I'm just poking a bit of fun at some of the arguments.

I agree that we can't guess anything about sexuality, religion, society, medicine or what ever really in 218x... So we might as well just base it on 2011 and something we can relate to.

[Dayshadow]

Syledir wrote...

What expense are you talking about? Romances will be optional. Chances are your LI will never express interest in the same sex, unless you try to romance a female LI with a FemShep. But why would you do that, if your not interested in s/s romance?

I misunderstand. I don't care if a gay character shows interest in me. The issue I have is the amount of dialog mutual to everyone being cut to make room for an additional dialog path for every single character.

Say total dialog equals 100
66% is mutual/friendship
33% is romance

Everyone can experience 66% of the total dialog.

As opposed to

33% is mutual/friendship
33% is straight romance
33% for gay romance

Everyone can experience 33% of the total dialog.

My fear is that everyone loses out of 50% dialog so that a mere handful of people want to romance everything under the stars. I don't know the limits of the Xbox 360, but I do believe there is a limit to how much can be fit. The PC version will be limited by the 360's capabilities.

[shepskisaac]

Dayshadow wrote...
There will be no uproar if previously straight characters remain straight. The vast majority of people will be OK with this. You cannot please everyone. If you can only please one faction it should be the majority.

The straight male majority's been pampered since day 1. Enough is enough. The majority can't always dictate everything. Should there be made only right-handed mouses for PCs just because great majority is right handed? No.

For the rest of your post, including your non-supported by any actual data assumption how many gay gamers are there, how many players use gay romance content and other things please read a post by BioWare dev David Gaider here

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 juin 2011 - 05:34 .

[Dayshadow]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Fears of "the gheys taking away our dialogue with characters!!!" are unfounded. 

Neither of us can know that.

[jeweledleah]

IsaacShep wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

about Kaidan/Ashley being planned as bi - read the links in my signature please. one of those is Patrik Weeks. doesn't mean that they cannot be expanded to be bi, but I'm getting very tired of deleted SHEPARD ONLY dialogue being used as canon.

Ohh really? The why does Liara sometimes refers to Kaidan as "her" in the love triangle scene? @03:025 www.youtube.com/watch you won't say that one is SHEPARD ONLY lines won't you?

Not to mention you only quote one account that wasn't even posted here. Other accounts by BW devs here on the forums said it was planned but cut due to time.

lol, you are kidding right?  you do realize that you get a confrontion with Ashley if you play male Shepard and THAT's who liara calls "her".  those lines exist in Ashley/Shepard/Liara confrontation, Jenifer Hale recorded male shepards lines, just like Mark Meer recorded female shepard lines.  listen carefuly - she says :"Ash will be ok, she's tough"  I guess its really true then?  Kaidan and Ashley are the same person?  I'm not sure exactly how that particular bug happened, but concidering the werid stuff I had happen when trying to mod?  yeah....  ther's also a line where male Shepard calls himself a woman, when talking to Liara. 

yes, they were Shepard lines only.  people went over those lines with a finetoothed comb. 

and the quote you are refering to comes from someone who didn't directly work on ME, but rather heard something about something down the grapewine, which happens in large companies.

the two quotes I have are both from bioware writers who worked on ME directly and those accounts belong to them.

I understand your desire and i hope we both get what we want (you'll get legitimate Kaidan romance, and I'll get no whiff of highschool unrequitted crushes in any of the romantic subplots), but lets just keep to the facts, shall we?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 15 juin 2011 - 05:35 .

[78stonewobble]

The amount of story/conversation available to a certain character would be my biggest problem with any of this.

If I "befriend" a person (not romance) I'd want to have access the same back ground stories and information of personality. Well atleast I'm very close to my friends and we tell each other all kinds of stuff.

Bigger issue than my problem with my interpretations of the characters and their continuity.

[Dayshadow]

IsaacShep wrote...

If someone couldn't see it coming after Kaidan's "Losing you was like losing a limb! Why didn't you call me?!" on Horizon then well...

Because I straight guy can't have platonic concern and care for another man?

Judging by posts I've seen from you in multiple threads you are either grasping at straws for the sake of argument and don't really believe what you are saying or you see sexual tension in everything. And I mean everything.

[TheMarshal]

Dayshadow wrote...

Syledir wrote...

What expense are you talking about? Romances will be optional. Chances are your LI will never express interest in the same sex, unless you try to romance a female LI with a FemShep. But why would you do that, if your not interested in s/s romance?

I misunderstand. I don't care if a gay character shows interest in me. The issue I have is the amount of dialog mutual to everyone being cut to make room for an additional dialog path for every single character.

Say total dialog equals 100
66% is mutual/friendship
33% is romance

Everyone can experience 66% of the total dialog.

As opposed to

33% is mutual/friendship
33% is straight romance
33% for gay romance

Everyone can experience 33% of the total dialog.

My fear is that everyone loses out of 50% dialog so that a mere handful of people want to romance everything under the stars. I don't know the limits of the Xbox 360, but I do believe there is a limit to how much can be fit. The PC version will be limited by the 360's capabilities.

That's assuming that there is a fixed amount of dialogue, and that in order to add gay-romance specific dialogue, they'd have to take away from something else.  They'd simply come up with new dialogue, or far more likely, find existing dialogue which can be re-used for both romances and only come up with new dialogue to fill in the gaps.

[rolson00]

Dayshadow wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...


Of course Bioware can do whatever they please, for good or for bad. But I think the concern isn't over what they can fabricate to excuse such an unlikely change in sexuality, but rather, that it will be forced and out of character. Not because it's pivotol to the plot. Not because it makes sense and everyone could see it coming. Not because it would make a good subplot. But the only reason it would be, quite literally, thrown in is to appease a few people at the expense of everyone else. Resources are not infinite. Whatever goes to devising all these intricate love webs is taking away neutral dialog that everyone can enjoy. Mass Effect games don't have enough conversations as it is. Bioware certainly doesn't need to shrink it even more at everyone's expense for the sake of an tiny minority.

By the the same token, streamlining the romances in such a way as to make all LIs bisexual and having one well-done cinematic where mShep and femShep are interchangeable guarantees pleasing the greatest amount of fans for the least amount of work and capital expenditure, freeing up resources for things like sidequests and other content that "everyone" can enjoy.

That argument cuts both ways, is all I'm saying.

It will never happen that way. They cannot make the same dialog for a heterosexual romance as they would for a homosexual equivalent without watering it down. Everyone loses in this scenario. I'm not sure if this is why DA2's companion interactions felt so artificial, limited and lackluster in their implimentation, but it was definitely atrocious imo.

There will be no uproar if previously straight characters remain straight. The vast majority of people will be OK with this. You cannot please everyone. If you can only please one faction it should be the majority.

4 out of 5 players play maleshep. This is the very reason that Kaidan is dead in the majority of playthroughs. I always found it a misjudgement on Bioware's part to pit a male against a female in a male dominated genre, especially when the two are LIs. Of course "there is no love for Kaidan" which isn't a  jab at his character, but gender. Of those 1 out of 5 femsehps, a male is playing them in the majority of cases and romances Liara. Femshep's bisexuality is for the sake of male players, not homosexual female players. Liara is not a gay option for femshep. She is a male option for those men playing a femshep. Of all males players maybe 5% are gay (and I'm being generous).

Should the entire game be rearranged, quite probably for the worst, because a handful of people want something? There are plenty of other minorities groups in the category of sexuality. Why should gays be given preference? I have no problem with there being a new gay romance(s) (even though the exclusion of other minorities makes gay appeasment an unfair practice), but when homosexuality is injected into the equation on a scale far exceeding its actual demand and population percentage I have a problem with it.

tell me the source where you got those numbas if you surf these forums you will come across loads of girls who play this and for the red writting how are gays given preference? all of the lis are stright im not gay but i find that very insulting so please do not continue in such a rude manner  

Modifié par rolson00, 15 juin 2011 - 05:44 .

[mopotter]

IsaacShep wrote...


Ohh really? The why does Liara sometimes refers to Kaidan as "her" in the love triangle scene? @03:025 www.youtube.com/watch you won't say that one is SHEPARD ONLY lines won't you?

Not to mention you only quote one account that wasn't even posted here. Other accounts by BW devs here on the forums said it was planned but cut due to time.

Probably for the same reason the stupid receptionist at the citadel called fem Shep sir.  They don't catch every word misused.  

[Siansonea]

Dayshadow wrote...

Syledir wrote...

What expense are you talking about? Romances will be optional. Chances are your LI will never express interest in the same sex, unless you try to romance a female LI with a FemShep. But why would you do that, if your not interested in s/s romance?

I misunderstand. I don't care if a gay character shows interest in me. The issue I have is the amount of dialog mutual to everyone being cut to make room for an additional dialog path for every single character.

Say total dialog equals 100
66% is mutual/friendship
33% is romance

Everyone can experience 66% of the total dialog.

As opposed to

33% is mutual/friendship
33% is straight romance
33% for gay romance

Everyone can experience 33% of the total dialog.

My fear is that everyone loses out of 50% dialog so that a mere handful of people want to romance everything under the stars. I don't know the limits of the Xbox 360, but I do believe there is a limit to how much can be fit. The PC version will be limited by the 360's capabilities.

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss BioWare's resource allocation. We know virtually nothing about it, and in any case, that's their problem and their decision. We've been down this road before, so let's stop here. 

[Dayshadow]

ipgd wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...

Should the entire game be rearranged, quite probably for the worst, because a handful of people want something?

Yes.

I don't think you honest mean that. Would it be fair to say that your answer is "yes" as long as the rearrangement is in your favor?

There are some poeple who want no romances period.
There are some poeple who want every squadmate from each game plus new characters to all be permanent squadmates.
There are some poeple who want an in-game marriage and polygamy.
There are some poeple who want a Wrex romance.
There are some poeple who want Shepard to cruise around in a cruiser or dreadnaught.
There are some poeple who want continue working for Cerberus.

Is your answer yes to all?