25715 réponses à ce sujet

[xassantex]

misi-chan wrote...

There you go, Vega and Sheploo  I wanted both to wear the same clothes x3

the sight of vega crossing legs ... i just can't , otherwise , great pic ...  

[jlb524]

adneate wrote...

It's all in the usage though a good example on my mind recently was from Battlestar Galactica, Lee Adama was a fighter pilot and the CAG for 2 seasons, then in season 3 they add in that he was interested in law as a child and liked to read his grandfather's books on Caprican law. Thus allowing him to be part of the team preparing for Gaius Baltar's impending trial.

That interest never existed and the character never talked about it or mentioned it, it just appeared one episode and became a major part of the story. Not just some trival fact like ice cream preference, but a major new point that will lead the character in a new direction. Yet at the same time it never contradicted anything we knew about him before hand, he just never mentioned it to anyone as far as the audience knows.

Right, trivial or not, these type of changes are not contradicting any fact established beforehand.

Some may not like these types of changes, but to state the changes shouldn't happen b/c 'I don't like it' doesn't hold much water and they can't say these types of changes shouldn't happen b/c 'they contradict established facts' because they don't.

So the 'retcon' argument is still a load of crap. 

Modifié par jlb524, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Siansonea]

Here's an example of a retcon:

Original story: Jean Grey saves the X-Men on the Starcore Shuttle, which crashes into Jamaica Bay. Intially, she is not found among the wreckage, but shortly she shoots out of the water in a new costume, with a new name: Phoenix. Phoenix does a bunch of stuff, turns evil and dies.

Retcon: It was never Jean Grey that became Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, it was actually a cosmic entity that assumed her identity, "forgetting" that it was the Phoenix Force, and placed the real Jean Grey in a healing stasis pod at the bottom of Jamiaca Bay. After the events of the Phoenix Saga, this healing pod was discovered by the Fantastic Four, and the "real" Jean Grey was revived.

So basically, when you can say "actually that never happened the way you think it did because of fill-in-the-blank", you're dealing with a retcon. Now, I would argue that sometimes a retcon is a GOOD thing, though in the case of Jean Grey/Phoenix, I would say it wasn't. Any time a retcon decreases the dramatic weight of a story point, it's a bad thing. But if it can increase the dramatic potential of an otherwise flat story point, then I say retcon away! BioWare, PLEASE retcon the Lazarus Project somehow. Make it have SOME meaning, purpose, or impact on the story. Right now it's just "hey look, Shepard has a new skill tree!"

Modifié par Siansonea II, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[Athayniel]

Siansonea II wrote...

BioWare, PLEASE retcon the Lazarus Project somehow. Make it have SOME meaning, purpose, or impact on the story. Right now it's just "hey look, Shepard has a new skill tree!"

The LP is already the ultimate retcon. One of my Sheps got an entirely new class out of it. Such is the retconning power of the Lazarus Project!

Honestly though, Shepard being forced to work for Cerberus isn't as bas as I originally thought when I think of it as the Illusive Man using all his connections and sources to 'leak' things about Shepard and isolating him/her from the usual sources of back up. Ashley pretty much confirms that when they meet on Horizon. She'd heard rumours which she hoped weren't true and was so upset when she found they were she wouldn't even listen to an explanation, and TIM admits to leaking all that stuff in order to lure a response by the Alliance and the Collectors. The Council was the same, with the added benefit of 'Oh strewth, Shepard's still going on about the Reaper's...' working its magic.

Cut off from even Anderson's usual steady support thanks to all the politics it's at least understandable that Shepard would at decide to use Cerberus as they are using him/her to defeat the Collectors before finally showing them the finger by blowing up the CB and taking off in the Normandy. For Paragons at least.

So Shep working for Cerberus as a mechanic to reboot the RPG side of the mechanics. Jarring? Yes. Elegant? No. Satisfying? Maybe at the end. Explosions do have a way of making things better in action films.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

If formerly straight characters end up gay in ME3 I will be so pissed!

Will being so pissed prevent you from purchasing ME3?

What do you think!

I hope you reconsider. Why let small aspects of the game such as the romances ruin your gaming experience? If you've been playing since ME1 then it would be a shame not to complete the trilogy over some insignificant thing as an NPCs sexual orientation. I'm sure BW will make it so you won't have to worry about a squadmate, that's the same sex as your Shepard, from hitting on him/her.

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

And if i get flamed for simply having an opinion I will unleash straightness on you all!

[Dhiro]

Too bad for you, then. Because they're all bi.

[Abispa]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

And if i get flamed for simply having an opinion I will unleash straightness on you all!

Up until recently, "straightness" was pretty much the only sexuality that was ever "unleashed.." Don't worry, though, I'm pretty sure your male Shepard can have sex with women in ME3.

[ElitePinecone]

Just to add:

- Yes, they'll be in the game, it is inevitable.

- Bioware have said the romances will be dependent on player choice; presumably you won't know a character is open to romance until you ask them. Given the overreaction to Anders, I think the writers have backed right away from NPCs propositioning the player character. It's all up to the player to initiate the romances, as far as we know.

So you could pretend a character is straight, I suppose. You'd never know otherwise until you picked the dialogue option.

[katerinafm]

Just commenting to say that I fully support this thread! I really hope ME3 has some exclusive s/s romances for Shepard (especially for a male Shepard, you have to admit he's the one who's been completely neglected until now). If there are only bi romances in ME3 I have to admit I'll be a little disapointed, as I strongly believe that players that want s/s options should have exclusive ones just like straight Shepards do.

Edit: I want to add that some people that are complaining that they don't want to accidentally romance a same sex character suddenly without wanting to or having it 'shoved in their face' should keep in mind of what Casey said at gamescom. He said that unlike in previous games, there is going to be a clearer line between friendship and romance (for example in ME2 picking the top 'paragon' options usually starts a romance even if you just wanted to be nice), so you can have friendships with characters without fearing that you're going to ninjamance them . I'm guessing if Shepard wants to romance a character now he/she will have a seperate option in the dialogue tree. Maybe in color like the charm/intimidate options (pink perhaps?). So...your argument is invalid.

Modifié par katerinafm, 23 septembre 2011 - 01:07 .

[wolf99000]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

If formerly straight characters end up gay in ME3 I will be so pissed!

Will being so pissed prevent you from purchasing ME3?

What do you think!

I hope you reconsider. Why let small aspects of the game such as the romances ruin your gaming experience? If you've been playing since ME1 then it would be a shame not to complete the trilogy over some insignificant thing as an NPCs sexual orientation. I'm sure BW will make it so you won't have to worry about a squadmate, that's the same sex as your Shepard, from hitting on him/her.

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

you have to remember just because in one game someone could be dating a male shep you dont have to play the game that way I did note you just mentioned the male male same sex romance which brings up the point that you have probley all ready played a s/s romance with kelly in me2 or is that different because its girl girl just because you play a game with a gay character it does not make you gay or even look gay

[Ravensword]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

And if i get flamed for simply having an opinion I will unleash straightness on you all!

There's no need to go into Archie Bunker mode. No one is going to flame you here unless you become openly hostile. If you wan to unleash your straightness you can do so upon me. Stay cool.

[Spatchmo]

Siansonea II wrote...

A bunch of stuff about Jean Grey and the Phoenix

You know, this is so far off topic, but I have to comment... The way they brought Jean Grey back was acceptable, kind of stupid, but it could have been much worse. What they did to Cyclops with that retcon though, abandoning his wife and child to be with Jean was just really, really wrong. Cyclops and Phoenix are still my favorite X-Men, but that was incredibly sloppy writing on Marvel's part and I am still amazed they had him do that.

More on topic, I doubt we'll have to worry about Bioware having their characters do things so far out of character, whether they go bi or not.

[Spatchmo]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience.

As a man trapped in the 1800s, I don't want a lifestyle shoved in my face that I don't agree with. A lifestyle such as being a woman not in the kitchen or serving her husband. Of course I don't need to be a man trapped in the 1800s to have that view. There are many people that still have that view today, both in the US and abroad.

I don't mean to be hard on you, you seem pretty sensible, it's just that I find when people say things like, "I don't agree with that lifestyle" I find it to be very offensive. More offensive than someone calling a homosexual a f** or whatever.

Usually their reason for not agreeing with the gay "lifestyle" is religious. I don't expect everyone to approve or be happy about homosexuality, but it would be nice if people could just accept it. We're a civilized society, so I don't approve of people being judgmental based on a book with a deity with zero physical proof. If you want to believe in it and it gives you a measure of comfort in difficult times, that's seriously wonderful, more power to you... But I don't want it shoved in my face as a means to belittle an entire population.

Yes, I am intentionally using your words to express my distaste. I hope you understand why, I am honestly not trying to be offensive.

[Quething]

Spatchmo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

A bunch of stuff about Jean Grey and the Phoenix

You know, this is so far off topic, but I have to comment... The way they brought Jean Grey back was acceptable, kind of stupid, but it could have been much worse. What they did to Cyclops with that retcon though, abandoning his wife and child to be with Jean was just really, really wrong. Cyclops and Phoenix are still my favorite X-Men, but that was incredibly sloppy writing on Marvel's part and I am still amazed they had him do that.

More on topic, I doubt we'll have to worry about Bioware having their characters do things so far out of character, whether they go bi or not.

Unfortunately Liara stands as rather contradictory to that hope.
(Though, as ever, that has nothing to do with making her go from "straight" to bi, so.)

Oh and Scott was always kind of a tool, but yeah, he had the Goblin Queen coming.

Modifié par Quething, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[Espurr]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

If formerly straight characters end up gay in ME3 I will be so pissed!

Will being so pissed prevent you from purchasing ME3?

What do you think!

I hope you reconsider. Why let small aspects of the game such as the romances ruin your gaming experience? If you've been playing since ME1 then it would be a shame not to complete the trilogy over some insignificant thing as an NPCs sexual orientation. I'm sure BW will make it so you won't have to worry about a squadmate, that's the same sex as your Shepard, from hitting on him/her.

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

You have to know that coming into this thread and then stating that you don't agree with the "gay lifestyle" and talking about keeping it in the closet is going to offend a lot of people, myself included.

To me, that says that you intentionally went into a support thread for something that you don't like simply to say that you don't like it. It's like you're just looking to argue.

No flames though. Hope you're not disappointed.:happy:

[RPGamer13]

I never did like Cyclops.  Wolverine should have been with Jean, not that other guy.

side note: I've been watching the anime and I like how in that version Mariko is still 'human'.


Anyway, back on topic:  Ashley, from her dialogue surrounding her sister, it's clear Ashley is into men and I can perceive her as not having thought of being with another woman.  But she does seem like it wouldn't be out of character for her to be swayed.  I say this because when she talks FemShep, she seems different.

The Uncanny wrote...

I would love to see ME3 do 'Silk Fox in space'.

She'd have a haughtiness and commanding authority about her. She'd deal with rivals crisply and dismissively. She'd have supreme confidence in her skills and her body. She'd wear a revealing, body hugging catsuit. There would be a complicated relationship with her father and...

Wait. Why does that sound so hauntingly familiar?

I know!  It's Miranda!  Now all we need is the same sex part to her relationship.

[Quething]

I've taken to shipping Jean/Emma myself. Which is my usual response to two women being pitted against each other over a man they're both too good for, but there's good fic for it, so I feel justified.

Miranda would make a fantastic Silk Fox, really. Her about-face is even equally underdeveloped! No but seriously, if there's anyone in the game that's just flat out competencesexual and doesn't give two tugs over gender, it's Miranda. Were it not for the Suicide Mission mechanic, I'd peg her as one of the most likely of all the squadmates for unlocking s/s availability. And since I just recently discovered I have a femShep who would totally hit that I am all the sadder that the Suicide Mission mechanic exists.

Though my inner troll is really starting to push for Tali for all the same reasons as she already wants Garrus.

[Athayniel]

I am also in the 'Third Way' camp in the Jean/Scott/Emma triangle. It seems to be a given in most media that whenever two women are fighting over a man he really isn't worth it. Better to cut out the middle man in those circumstances I say. Scott's always been a douche. Summed up almost perfectly in the first X-Men film when Cyclops demands proof of Wolverine that he isn't Mystique in disguise and Logan just says, "You're a d*ck."

I've mentioned before that Silk Fox just stole all my JE characters away from Dawn Star as soon as she showed up. And I knew Miranda was going to be just the same way. I'm lining up a femshep for her just in case as well. Alex Shepard will be very sad if Miranda doesn't feel the same way about her.

I have to admit that Samara and her relationship with Shep in ME2 is amazing though.

[wolf99000]

RPGamer13 wrote...

I never did like Cyclops.  Wolverine should have been with Jean, not that other guy.

side note: I've been watching the anime and I like how in that version Mariko is still 'human'.


Anyway, back on topic:  Ashley, from her dialogue surrounding her sister, it's clear Ashley is into men and I can perceive her as not having thought of being with another woman.  But she does seem like it wouldn't be out of character for her to be swayed.  I say this because when she talks FemShep, she seems different.

The Uncanny wrote...

I would love to see ME3 do 'Silk Fox in space'.

She'd have a haughtiness and commanding authority about her. She'd deal with rivals crisply and dismissively. She'd have supreme confidence in her skills and her body. She'd wear a revealing, body hugging catsuit. There would be a complicated relationship with her father and...

Wait. Why does that sound so hauntingly familiar?

I know!  It's Miranda!  Now all we need is the same sex part to her relationship.

in me1 I always felt ashley could fall for a woman same with miranda I always figured she had been hurt by men and has serious issues with her father that she would be open to it

not sure how true it was but I read ashley was meant to be open to both male and female romance in 1 but bioware did not do it in the end

[Athayniel]

RPGamer13 wrote...

Anyway, back on topic:  Ashley, from her dialogue surrounding her sister, it's clear Ashley is into men and I can perceive her as not having thought of being with another woman.  But she does seem like it wouldn't be out of character for her to be swayed.  I say this because when she talks FemShep, she seems different.

Gah.... I was going to reply to this when I made my post 3 hours ago but the whole Jean/Emma thing in Quething's post distracted me. Also... Silk Fox.... distracting me.

From my recollection, the dialogue you're writing about is a message from Ashley's sister saying that she saw her and Kaidan on the news and that she, Ashley's sister, found Kaiden cute. I don't remember anything about Ash's feelings about Kaidan or any possible attraction. She just kinda facepalms at the embarrassing family moment in front of her boss. If you don't actually question Ashley about it at the time there is no indication whatsoever that Ashley might be attracted to Kaidan. Am I wrong? As far as I'm concerned if you don't ask and she never tells did it really happen?

Same thing with Kaiden reminiscing about Brain Camp and Rahna. If you don't ask him about his feelings you won't know what they are, he doesn't volunteer them.

[ElitePinecone]

We're getting into 'quantum storytelling' again, which is a murky area. Some would argue that the essentials of the character remain the same, no matter which particular lines Shepard says over the course of a particular playthrough.

A similar thing happens with Kaidan's Rahna dialogue: a femShep (or modded maleShep) romance never mentions Rahna, instead she's just 'a girl' who he saves out of kindness or pity rather than love. (NB: It's been a long time since I've played a femShep/Kaidan romance in ME, it's possible I'm wrong - but the modded maleShep one definitely lacks Rahna).

As I said, it's murky and complex - the idea that a romance might be contingent on one line of dialogue that might not have been said in a particular playthrough is probably stretching the limits of effective storytelling. It'd be far easier to just suggest that losing Shepard made Ashley realise what she really felt - after all, being interested in Kaidan doesn't at all preclude the character from being bisexual.

I think it's likely that Ashley and Kaidan will be s/s options in ME3, based on the limited information we have at the moment, but I think their 'availability' will come more from dialogue in ME3 and less from tidbits that could've happened two games earlier.

[Athayniel]

ElitePinecone wrote...

We're getting into 'quantum storytelling' again, which is a murky area. Some would argue that the essentials of the character remain the same, no matter which particular lines Shepard says over the course of a particular playthrough.

Oh I agree, just pointing out that it *can* be incredibly murky and I'm not advocating on making romances contingent on them.

What gets to me is when the voice-acting is far more indicative of interest than anything except explicit, unavoidable conversation. The femShep/Ashley 'Dismissed, Chief.' -> 'Ma'am.' couplet is definitely suggestive but can be dismissed just as easily, but I do like it. Whereas hearing femShep 'just wanting to... talk for a minute' with Jacob really vexes me. It's very 'in your face' and unnecessary at that point. I'd understand such intonation if they were already romancing, much the same way Leliana's greeting changes when you're romancing her in DA:O, but this isn't the case during femShep - Jacob dialogues. I have to actively tune it out because otherwise it feels as if femShep is being pushed towards Jacob by the voice direction.

A similar thing happens with Kaidan's Rahna dialogue: a femShep (or modded maleShep) romance never mentions Rahna, instead she's just 'a girl' who he saves out of kindness or pity rather than love. (NB: It's been a long time since I've played a femShep/Kaidan romance in ME, it's possible I'm wrong - but the modded maleShep one definitely lacks Rahna).

As I said, it's murky and complex - the idea that a romance might be contingent on one line of dialogue that might not have been said in a particular playthrough is probably stretching the limits of effective storytelling. It'd be far easier to just suggest that losing Shepard made Ashley realise what she really felt - after all, being interested in Kaidan doesn't at all preclude the character from being bisexual.

I don't need an explanation for why any particular character reveals an interest in Shepard in ME3 when they didn't before. Relationships develop at the pace they develop. FemShep doesn't exist in dudeShep's universe and vice-versa. There is no in-universe need to explain the differences and getting into an argument on the meta explanation is just a recipe for pain and ultimately pointless anyway.

I think it's likely that Ashley and Kaidan will be s/s options in ME3, based on the limited information we have at the moment, but I think their 'availability' will come more from dialogue in ME3 and less from tidbits that could've happened two games earlier.

I have a wishlist for s/s options in ME3 which I doubt will come to pass. And really there is far too much time between now and March to even remain guardedly optimistic. Better to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Modifié par Athayniel, 23 septembre 2011 - 02:04 .