25715 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

jlb524 wrote...

I thought retcon meant 'changing established facts' and not adding more information about a character that didn't exist previously.

It looks like it originally meant "adding new info (without removing/contradicting the old info) that changes perspective". Which is stupid because it means 50% (or more) of literature is one big retcon, seriously, storytelling is based on revealing new info with time LOL. It means "Luke I'm your father" was a retcon too...

But it doesn't matter. Nowadays, retcon is used as a negative term in cases when something is directly contradicted and erased from timeline without explanation and the two states/versions of the character(s)/event(s) can't exist in the same universe. Neither Tali/Garrus romance in ME2 nor anyone's s/s romance in  ME3 would bad that since it doesn't contradict anything.

[jlb524]

Athayniel wrote...

I have a wishlist for s/s options in ME3 which I doubt will come to pass. And really there is far too much time between now and March to even remain guardedly optimistic. Better to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I'm curious what other people's worse case scenario is for s/s romances in ME3.

I guess mine would be, no new f/f romance (either Liara counts now or Kelly gets a larger role) plus one new squad mate for m/m romance who is easily disposed of early in the game (and, hence, doesn't have as much dialog as others).

Best case scenario would be no gender checks on any romance. 

[bleetman]

I imagine my worst case scenario would be much like what male Shepard had to deal with in ME2. Specifically:

Jack: Hey, want to ****?
Shepard: ...No?
Jack: What the hell, Shepard? Why you gotta be like that?

Followed by them saying nothing to you for the rest of the game, because o/s people can't hold conversations with each other.

[Athayniel]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm curious what other people's worse case scenario is for s/s romances in ME3.

I guess mine would be, no new f/f romance (either Liara counts now or Kelly gets a larger role) plus one new squad mate for m/m romance who is easily disposed of early in the game (and, hence, doesn't have as much dialog as others).

Best case scenario would be no gender checks on any romance. 

I think those would be everyone's worst case and best case really, they're certainly mine. <_< Nothing against Kelly but I personally find Samara and Miranda far more interesting. I have no real opinion on who should be available for gayShep but I think there should be at least one alien as well as the VS and a new character.

[katerinafm]

Personally I liked what DA2 did with making romances available for everyone, but I'd prefer it if a game as 'realistic' as ME had specific gay/straight characters. If they suddenly made everyone bi in the third game I don't know how the writers would make it look believable.

[jlb524]

katerinafm wrote...

Personally I liked what DA2 did with making romances available for everyone, but I'd prefer it if a game as 'realistic' as ME had specific gay/straight characters. If they suddenly made everyone bi in the third game I don't know how the writers would make it look believable.

In universe, it would 'look believable' as I doubt an individual Shepard will engage in a romance with all available LIs...plus, they won't all start a Pride Parade on the Normandy or something...

Also, I'd like to add that previous ME romances were far from realistic.

Modifié par jlb524, 23 septembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[Quething]

jlb524 wrote...

In universe, it would 'look believable' as I doubt an individual Shepard will engage in a romance with all available LIs...plus, they won't all start a Pride Parade on the Normandy or something...

No, but how bloody awesome would it be if they did?

[Stanley Woo]

Some off-topic conversation and inappropriate language removed.

[ElitePinecone]

katerinafm wrote...
 If they suddenly made everyone bi in the third game I don't know how the writers would make it look believable.

What do you mean by 'everyone'? It's thrown around so much by people who are apprehensive about s/s in ME3, but it just doesn't make any sense. 

There aren't even going to be opportunities to re-romance many characters (Walters has said only some; I interpret that as the VS), so that's at least six of the nine romances who can't be "turned bi". Come to think of it, Liara is already (semantics aside), so that leaves only two. 

Plus the new characters, when they're revealed. 

I also need to disagree with your definition: characters can only be 'made bi' if they were originally identified as hetero- or homosexual. 

A grand total of none of the Mass Effect characters have said as much (apart from possibly Liara). Up until the point where a character or the writers confirm that they're one sexuality or the other, don't make assumptions that they're all straight. A woman who romances only men and then romances a woman isn't a straight person "being turned" bi; she was always bisexul. To repeat: none of the ME characters have been identified as straight, so s/s romances with them need little to no justification on the part of the writers. 

Is it realistic that every single one of the ME/ME2 squad is open to both genders? Definitely not. But equally: none of them are straight until proven otherwise. There's a lot of ground for the writers to do their work. 

[Abispa]

In ME, Ashley can fall in love with male Shepard if he's a nice guy or insane genocidal maniac. So does Liara. Kaidan will also fall in love with nice or blood thirsty female Shepard, but he does the best job at making his lover feel bad about all the "evil" stuff. It is "unrealistic," but in a game like ME, they have a role to play, and that is LOVE INTEREST. No matter how much some may want to pretend they have a meaningful relationship with a video game character, they will always be, no matter how well-written, accessories for the player to use to develop his or her Shepard.

Since "realism" has NEVER been achieved with ANY past Bioware LI and, to be honest, I have no idea how it could EVER be achieved, there is really no reason why all future LIs in Bioware games shouldn't be "bi" by default unless there is some need in the game that s/he is "straight" or "gay" only. One could argue that Morrigan in DA:O would be such a case since she needs a male to impregnate her. Of course, you don't have to be "straight" to get pregnant, and she obviously isn't motivated by love to perform the "dark ritual."

That being said, I seriously doubt that s/s romances cover the entire cast since many of the characters could be dead and just aren't popular enough for Bioware to develop all new romances for the mostly part-time cast. And so long as Bioware doesn't suddenly turn the VS into the Bioware-typical "randy" bisexual, I doubt there will be any truly game-breaking moments save those created by a player's intolerance for s/s.

Modifié par Abispa, 24 septembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Quething]

It's not like six out of twelve bi squaddies would be all that crazy anyway, particularly considering only half of the six in question are even human, and we have no statistics at all on sexual preference in non-human species beyond asari. It's like people forget that characters other than LIs actually have sexualities. Every single romanceable character in the MEverse (all 9 current) could be bisexual and that wouldn't even be close to "everybody" being bi, because as far as we know, Joker and Zaeed and Kasumi and Chakwas and Gardner and Gabby and Adams and Ken and Anderson and Udina and Conrad and Pressly and Emily sodding Wong could all still be perfectly straight.

Modifié par Quething, 24 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[Abispa]

Shepard should just put a red light above his/her door.

"You were awesome! Just leave your money on the dresser, please. Thank you."

[katerinafm]

I feel like I was misunderstood...O.o so let me clarify in case what I said came out wrong.

When I said that I wouldn't like everyone to be made bi wasn't because I don't like or feel uncomfortable with having previous romances be made bi or gay. And yes I know that 'made bi' is an incorrect way to say it since characters never made their preferences clear (although I personally assumed that when you couldn't romance a character of the same sex it was because of their sexual preference but that's just me and I know now that it doesn't really say anything). Please don't take each word I say apart, I'm a clumsy talker XD

I just feel like a female and male Shepard DESERVE an exclusive same sex romance that won't be accessible to 'straight' Shepards, just like gay m/f Shepards couldn't romance characters of the same sex (other than the asari and Kelly for female Shepards) for the past two games.

Please don't think that I am in any way against it because that's REALLY far from the truth and it makes me feel bad just thinking that some of you assumed that I'm against it. Perhaps you missed my earlier post that I was saying how I support this thread and when you looked at just my latest post you assumed that I was hostile about it which is really not the case. Just to clarify . I just wanted to show my support but I'll just go back in the shadows now XD. Thank you!

Edit: *sigh* Typos.

Modifié par katerinafm, 24 septembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[Quething]

A lot of us, actually, would support that - some characters being straight, others bi, others genuinely gay. Personally, I'd have been far less annoyed by my inability to romance Morrigan with my f!Cousland or Alistair with my m!Tabris had I been equally unable to romance Leliana with my m!Mahariel. Even though I still prefer Morrigan (and would still have modded to get her XD), it would have at least felt like they were taking a real stab at parity.

The trouble is, it's not going to happen. Not within this gaming generation. Developers simply don't seem to believe that enough players will avail themselves of a s/s-only romance to make that amount of development time worth it. It's one thing to record a few obscure easter egg dialog lines that only 1 in 1000 players will ever hear; it's quite another to spend hundreds or even thousands of man-hours writing lines, setting variables, rigging animations and plotting out consequences that only 1 in 1000 players will ever encounter.

I happen to consider that an almost absurdly pessimistic evaluation of the playerbase's willingness to try things out, but they're the ones with the online feedback statistics, so they're not apt to listen to lil' ol' me. Regardless, it's their game to make, and theirs to choose how they distribute their resources. And so long as that remains their philosophy - "s/s only romances are not worth the time it takes to develop them" - the idea of realism is completely off the table. And thus the only possible way to have parity is to go with the "all bi" construction.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

wolf99000 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

If formerly straight characters end up gay in ME3 I will be so pissed!

Will being so pissed prevent you from purchasing ME3?

What do you think!

I hope you reconsider. Why let small aspects of the game such as the romances ruin your gaming experience? If you've been playing since ME1 then it would be a shame not to complete the trilogy over some insignificant thing as an NPCs sexual orientation. I'm sure BW will make it so you won't have to worry about a squadmate, that's the same sex as your Shepard, from hitting on him/her.

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

you have to remember just because in one game someone could be dating a male shep you dont have to play the game that way I did note you just mentioned the male male same sex romance which brings up the point that you have probley all ready played a s/s romance with kelly in me2 or is that different because its girl girl just because you play a game with a gay character it does not make you gay or even look gay

Are you suggesting that I have played a s/s romance using a femshep? If so you are sadly mistaken. I am a straight woman, now why would I date Kelly?? Also Im not just talking about m/m s/s romance but w/w as well. I do not play as a male shepherd because I can't identify with a male.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Ravensword wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

And if i get flamed for simply having an opinion I will unleash straightness on you all!

There's no need to go into Archie Bunker mode. No one is going to flame you here unless you become openly hostile. If you wan to unleash your straightness you can do so upon me. Stay cool.

No one is going to flame me here, are you kidding! Nearly everyone here has flamed me for sharing my opinion. You are the only one who has responded to me fairly, thankyou.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

I hope this works both ways

I have several gay and bi Shepards and so far as they're concerned it's not that Miranda and Tali are heterosexual it's that Shepard hasn't made a move yet. If your Mirandas and Talis are heterosexual that's fine but mine aren't hope that doesn't ruin your immersion.

The fact that your Miranda and Tali aren't hetro dosen't bother me in the slightest, nor does it ruin my game. Like I said before the game is unique for all of us.

[Carfax]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

I agree with this 100%.  Straight gamers or gamers that prefer to engage with heterosexual characters should not have to put up with homosexuality being shoved in their face.

If Bioware manages to do things correctly, the S/S romances should only be triggerable 100% by the PC..  None of the DA2 nonsense, where Anders lets your straight male Hawke know that he finds him attractive regardless of whether you hit on him or not, and you get rivalry points for turning him down..

[ElitePinecone]

Carfax wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

I agree with this 100%.  Straight gamers or gamers that prefer to engage with heterosexual characters should not have to put up with homosexuality being shoved in their face.

If Bioware manages to do things correctly, the S/S romances should only be triggerable 100% by the PC..  None of the DA2 nonsense, where Anders lets your straight male Hawke know that he finds him attractive regardless of whether you hit on him or not, and you get rivalry points for turning him down..

Would you also agree that female characters should never hit on a male Shepard, and male characters should never hit on a female Shepard? 

Because that's happened often enough in Bioware's games. Either all romances should be player-triggered, or none of them should be. You can't support a double standard. 

[Xilizhra]

Carfax wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

No no, Im still buying it, I've been a fan for a while now and I know it will be epic no matter. I know there is probably going to be s/s romances in the game, its enevitable. I just don't want a lifestyle that I don't agree with shoved in my face throughout my game experience. If say Bioware decides to write in gay or bi options for Garrus I don't want to know about it unless I persue a relationship with him using a male shepherd (which I wouldn't). All Im saying is keep the s/s in the closet, if you want to persue a s/s romance with a character then by all means go ahead, thats your perogative but if you don't then it would be nice keep the character unknown so that those of us who do not like s/s romances can think of a character as straight. The game should be a unique personal experience.

I agree with this 100%.  Straight gamers or gamers that prefer to engage with heterosexual characters should not have to put up with homosexuality being shoved in their face.

If Bioware manages to do things correctly, the S/S romances should only be triggerable 100% by the PC..  None of the DA2 nonsense, where Anders lets your straight male Hawke know that he finds him attractive regardless of whether you hit on him or not, and you get rivalry points for turning him down..

I would agree with this if you amended this to "all romances" and also got rid of idiocy like my Femshep apparently thinking that Jacob is at all attractive.

Would you also agree that female characters should never hit on a male Shepard, and male characters should never hit on a female Shepard?

Also this.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 septembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...
And so long as that remains their philosophy - "s/s only romances are not worth the time it takes to develop them" - the idea of realism is completely off the table. And thus the only possible way to have parity is to go with the "all bi" construction.

Also this. 

If people don't want characters to be bisexual and want to preseve the sanctified and precious heterosexual characters for some unspecified reasons, start lobbying Bioware for distinct straight/gay/lesbian characters - if it means that much. Personally I'm more than willing to support "all bi" characters, since romances are a tiny part of the game's character interactions, let alone the other gameplay and storyline. 

I find it particularly stupid that those who are against s/s romances in ME3 because they take too many resources are - once they've been confirmed in the game - then fierce advocates of making uniquely gay/lesbian characters (presumably to quarantine teh ghey), even though this would take far more money and much more time than just making a couple of the romances open to both genders. 

[Carfax]

katerinafm wrote...

I just feel like a female and male Shepard DESERVE an exclusive same sex romance that won't be accessible to 'straight' Shepards, just like gay m/f Shepards couldn't romance characters of the same sex (other than the asari and Kelly for female Shepards) for the past two games.

This would be a complete waste of development time.  Gays comprise a very small percentage of the human population (estimated at 2 to 4%), and so also comprise a very small percentage of the gaming market. 

Why spend extra time and money to appease such a small percentage of their consumer base?  Making bisexual or contextually bisexual characters makes a lot more sense in that regard, since Bioware can appeal to both straight and non straight gamers simultaneously..

[Carfax]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Would you also agree that female characters should never hit on a male Shepard, and male characters should never hit on a female Shepard? 

Because that's happened often enough in Bioware's games. Either all romances should be player-triggered, or none of them should be. You can't support a double standard. 

There is no double standard.  Gays always seem to want to use the equivalency arguement when discussing this topic, but there is no equivalency, because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not equal in any shape, form or fashion.

The vast majority of humans are heterosexual, which is precisely why there are a lot more heterosexual romances in Bioware's games, and so few, if any bisexual romances, despite Bioware being amongst the most progressive game developers.

Also, unlike heterosexuality which is viewed as standard behaviour the World over, homosexuality can provoke a wide range of feelings in people, from complete acceptance, to indifference to absolute hatred. 

It's a numbers game.  As long as gays/bisexuals only comprise 2-4% of the human population, then they cannot use the equivalency arguement.

Modifié par Carfax, 24 septembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[Xilizhra]

There is no double standard. Gays always seem to want to use the equivalency arguement when discussing this topic, but there is no equivalency, because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not equal in any shape, form or fashion.

The vast majority of humans are heterosexual, which is precisely why there are a lot more heterosexual romances in Bioware's games, and so few, if any bisexual romances, despite Bioware being amongst the most progressive game developers.

It's a numbers game. As long as gays/bisexuals only comprise 2-4% of the human population, then they cannot use the equivalency arguement.

You're using the wrong standards in a few different ways. For one thing, the purpose is so that those of all sexual orientations can enjoy the game equally. For another, party members aren't representative of the population as a whole.

[ElitePinecone]

Carfax wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Would you also agree that female characters should never hit on a male Shepard, and male characters should never hit on a female Shepard? 

Because that's happened often enough in Bioware's games. Either all romances should be player-triggered, or none of them should be. You can't support a double standard. 

There is no double standard.  Gays always seem to want to use the equivalency arguement when discussing this topic, but there is no equivalency, because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not equal in any shape, form or fashion.

The vast majority of humans are heterosexual, which is precisely why there are a lot more heterosexual romances in Bioware's games, and so few, if any bisexual romances, despite Bioware being amongst the most progressive game developers.

It's a numbers game.  As long as gays/bisexuals only comprise 2-4% of the human population, then they cannot use the equivalency arguement.

Let me get this straight, so to speak: You demand that all s/s romances be player-initiated, because it makes you uncomfortable, but don't mind at all that female NPCs can hit on maleShep without flirting, or male NPCs on femShep. 

I've had to wade through nine female characters making advances at maleShep over two games. None of them have been particularly traumatic. Annoying? Probably. 

Either you can deal with one or two bisexual characters hitting on your Shepard, or you argue for all romances to be player-initiated. Period.  

Excuse me if I don't particularly warm to your argument.