25715 réponses à ce sujet

[The Uncanny]

IsaacShep wrote...
The general discussion is a war zone at the moment, be happy it ain't spreading even more here

There is a part of the BSN forums that's a war zone. How novel. <_<

That doesn't mean we have to get dragged in.

[Siansonea]

Yeah, I don't think any more needs to be said about multiplayer around here. Unless it's about multiplayer s/s romance.

[Jesse]

Chewgumma wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...Feel free to come and hide in here if you'd like. 

I'm hiding in there too as of now! ^__^

me three.....

[Ravensword]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, I don't think any more needs to be said about multiplayer around here. Unless it's about multiplayer s/s romance.

What about multiplayer and s/s romances?

[Chewgumma]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, I don't think any more needs to be said about multiplayer around here. Unless it's about multiplayer s/s romance.

My Krogan warlord wants to raid your squishy male human commando!

[Estelindis]

I'd like to ask some questions and hopefully prompt a discussion. (Before I get into that, it should be noted that I'm a heterosexual woman and I may have some hetero-normative assumptions of which I'm not aware. If I cause any offence then I apologize in advance and ask you to show me how to phrase my posts in a better way.)

Do you think that writing a bisexual or homosexual romance for a computer RPG (such as any game from the Mass Effect series) is different in any way to writing a heterosexual romance? In your opinion, are there specific qualities that same-sex romances have that heterosexual romances do not, or vice versa? Do you prefer settings that depict same-sex relations as unusual, or, if given the option, would you prefer to play in settings where all such matters are seen as equal, or, again, would you prefer a setting in which same-sex relations were regarded as the norm? For any questions you choose to answer, I'd appreciate it very much if you'd explain your reasons.

Thanks for reading and thinking about my questions. :-)

[Captain_Obvious]

Estelindis wrote...

Do you think that writing a bisexual or homosexual romance for a computer RPG (such as any game from the Mass Effect series) is different in any way to writing a heterosexual romance? In your opinion, are there specific qualities that same-sex romances have that heterosexual romances do not, or vice versa? Do you prefer settings that depict same-sex relations as unusual, or, if given the option, would you prefer to play in settings where all such matters are seen as equal, or, again, would you prefer a setting in which same-sex relations were regarded as the norm? For any questions you choose to answer, I'd appreciate it very much if you'd explain your reasons.

Thanks for reading and thinking about my questions. :-)

I'm not a writer, so I can't answer those questions, but I've been of the opinion when playing games that I prefer to see acknowledgement without worrying about what that game universe considers normative.  For example, you can't really play ME and know what the normative sexualities are.  I mean, you know that Asari mate with any species or gender, but we can only make assumptions that most Asari mate with males of other species (just as an example).  Similarly, we can only make assumptions about humans in ME based on our own societal norms.  I like games that don't cater to these assumptions, and allow the player to determine what the societal norms are.  With the restrictions on S/S and Alien romance in ME1, followed by only restrictions on S/S in ME 2, now followed by neither restrictions in ME3, I think games are moving in the direction that I like.  

I guess I like games where the game allows the player to determine what is normative.  If the player choses it, it's normal in their game.  The only restriction I would place is "consenting adults only." 

[shepskisaac]

Estelindis wrote...

Do you think that writing a bisexual or homosexual romance for a computer RPG (such as any game from the Mass Effect series) is different in any way to writing a heterosexual romance? In your opinion, are there specific qualities that same-sex romances have that heterosexual romances do not, or vice versa?

IMO, 95% of stuff depends on personalities thus rendering which gender(s) is(are) involved in the romance meaningless. But there are some details that should be different. To me, it's just obvious two guys won't romance/hit on/flirt with each other exactly the same way as a guy and a girl would and especially as two women would.

How does it influence writing? I would rather expect Vega to call my ManShep 'handsome' instead of 'beautiful' like I would expect it with FemShep/Vega romance. Not the greatest example, but shows the little detail thing I'm talking about. What sounds natural to come out of characters' mouths depending what gender they're talking to.

[Chewgumma]

Estelindis wrote...

I'd like to ask some questions and hopefully prompt a discussion. (Before I get into that, it should be noted that I'm a heterosexual woman and I may have some hetero-normative assumptions of which I'm not aware. If I cause any offence then I apologize in advance and ask you to show me how to phrase my posts in a better way.)

Do you think that writing a bisexual or homosexual romance for a computer RPG (such as any game from the Mass Effect series) is different in any way to writing a heterosexual romance? In your opinion, are there specific qualities that same-sex romances have that heterosexual romances do not, or vice versa? Do you prefer settings that depict same-sex relations as unusual, or, if given the option, would you prefer to play in settings where all such matters are seen as equal, or, again, would you prefer a setting in which same-sex relations were regarded as the norm? For any questions you choose to answer, I'd appreciate it very much if you'd explain your reasons.

Thanks for reading and thinking about my questions. :-)

I'm still relatively new to the LGBT community, having only come out to myself online a few months ago. But the majority of s/s couples I have come across seem no different to your typical straight couple. Thus I don't see any need for a massive rethink in the scripting when it comes to s/s relationships. The only thing that would really need changing is minor dialoge details, like IsaacShep said.

And as for the setting, I'd like to think s/s would be seen as equal by the majority of society in the time frame ME takes place. In the last 50 years the world has taken massive steps towards equality, even if it doesn't feel it at times. So a few hundred years from now homosexuality would, ideally, be seen as no weirder than heterosexuality. The lack of judgementalism from crew mates would also be cheaper for Bioware to develop as they wouldn't have to script any prejudice!

Modifié par Chewgumma, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:26 .

[Estelindis]

Captain_Obvious wrote...
I guess I like games where the game allows the player to determine what is normative.  If the player choses it, it's normal in their game.  The only restriction I would place is "consenting adults only." 

I think that makes perfect sense.  The general goal of games is fun, after all.  I take "fun" to include many kinds of enjoyable experiences, from the thought-provoking to the exhilarating.  Wherever the resources exist to allow a player to determine certain aspects of the game world according to their preferences, I see no reason not to allow it if it will let them have more fun.

IsaacShep wrote...

To me, it's just obvious two guys won't romance/hit on/flirt with each other exactly the same way as a guy and a girl would and especially as two women would. 

How does it influence writing? I would rather expect Vega to call my ManShep 'handsome' instead of 'beautiful' like I would expect it with FemShep/Vega romance. Not the greatest example, but shows the little detail thing I'm talking about. What sounds natural to come out of characters' mouths depending what gender they're talking to.

Do you think that gender-based switches like "handsome/beautiful" would suffice to cover these differences, or would more variable approaches based on gender and orientation be better?  To put it another way: in voice acted games like those in the Mass Effect series, one is going to have to record the whole line again anyway if just one word is different, so is it worth adding some more differences while one is at it?  Or, to see it another way, do you prefer to keep make the differences minimal so that same-sex is not singled out as unusual?  (Though, let's face it, if the two are different then one could just as easily label the opposite-sex interaction as unusual.)  

In concrete terms, do you think that either same- or opposite-sex romantic interactions should place more emphasis (for instance) on flirtiness, physical attraction, shared (or disparate) experiences and interests, establishing a solid friendship first, etc?  Or, on the other hand, should ******-, bi- and heterosexual player characters all have the opportunity to roleplay these possibilities as they see fit?  Might I say that one could enjoyably roleplay being shy or bold, cutting to the chase or gently exploring, admiring the other person's body or mind, etc., regardless of whether it's a male/male, female/female, or female/male relationship?

Chewgumma wrote...

I'm still relatively new to the LGBT community, having only come out to myself online a few months ago. But the majority of s/s couples I have come across seem no different to your typical straight couple. Thus I don't see any need for a massive rethink in the scripting when it comes to s/s relationships. The only thing that would really need changing is minor dialoge details, like IsaacShep said.

And as for the setting, I'd like to think s/s would be seen as equal by the majority of society in the time frame ME takes place. In the last 50 years the world has taken massive steps towards equality, even if it doesn't feel it at times. So a few hundred years from now homosexuality would, ideally, be seen as no weirder than heterosexuality. The lack of judgementalism from crew mates would also be cheaper for Bioware to develop as they wouldn't have to script any prejudice!

Well, here you already answer some of the questions I posed to Isaac, so thanks.  :-)  And yes, any zots saved for any reason can only be good.  If there's no prejudice against one kind of romantic relationship, it would seem like extra work to write some in for others.  ;-)  Mind you, I think it makes sense for there not to be any in the Mass Effect universe, and in most sci-fi settings generally.  Some of Ursula le Guin's work does show that one can do amazing things in sci-fi settings by playing around with gender paradigms and prejudice, though, so sometimes it can work out very well.

[shepskisaac]

Estelindis wrote...

Do you think that gender-based switches like "handsome/beautiful" would suffice to cover these differences, or would more variable approaches based on gender and orientation be better?  To put it another way: in voice acted games like those in the Mass Effect series, one is going to have to record the whole line again anyway if just one word is different, so is it worth adding some more differences while one is at it?  Or, to see it another way, do you prefer to keep make the differences minimal so that same-sex is not singled out as unusual?  (Though, let's face it, if the two are different then one could just as easily label the opposite-sex interaction as unusual.) 

Depends on the context. If the main flirt point of the dialogue falls in the "You're a very handsome man/beautiful woman Shep" line, I don't see a reason to make it any more different than changing 'handome' to 'beautiful' and 'man' to 'woman'. But if, let's say, Vega is a super-sensitive-romantic guy who likes poems & literature, than I would prefer if he expressed his love by quoting some Spartan gay love poem on my ManShep instead of sticking to Romeo & Juliet quote (for example) from FemShep's romance. Throwing Romeo & Juliet  conversation into the context of two guys romancing each other would be just weird and wouldn't fit.

Estelindis wrote...

In concrete terms, do you think that either same- or opposite-sex romantic interactions should place more emphasis (for instance) on flirtiness, physical attraction, shared (or disparate) experiences and interests, establishing a solid friendship first, etc?  Or, on the other hand, should ******-, bi- and heterosexual player characters all have the opportunity to roleplay these possibilities as they see fit?  Might I say that one could enjoyably roleplay being shy or bold, cutting to the chase or gently exploring, admiring the other person's body or mind, etc., regardless of whether it's a male/male, female/female, or female/male relationship?

Shep should have all kinds of options, but that goes for both gay and straight Shep. Emphasis on flirting, or straight-to-bed, or physicality is a matter of personality. While yes, in general guys are more horny & "wanna stick it in you already" than women, in reality men can be as shy & whatnnot as women stereotypically are, and women can be as horny and 'hit it & quit it' as stereotypically men are. So when it comes to Shep, there should be all kinds of options, just like there was an option in Jack's romance to role-play that Shep just wanted sex.

But when it comes to characters other than Shep, I don't think they should roll as Shep "tells" them to, as in be sensitive if Shep wants it or be ready-for-bed when Shep wants it. The romances in BW (and other) games are already unrealistic with the characters being into Shep no matter if Shep is holier than thou or a serial killer, no need to add even less realism. If they want Vega (or anyone else) to be romantic, they should make him so. If they want him to be opne for sex quickly, instead of weeks of reciting poems, they should make him so.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:25 .

[Estelindis]

Isaac, I think you make many excellent points. I agree with you that there should be equality between Shepards of different orientations yet each LI should have their unique qualities that will not appeal to every Shep (and every Shep will not appeal to each LI). The poetry example was a perfect way of showing how what works for an opposite-sex romance might not work for same-sex romance in one way while retaining commonalities in other ways (poetry for both, but different poetry). I appreciate the time you've taken to explain your point of view so clearly and concisely. :-)

[ElitePinecone]

Interesting discussion.

To add something I noticed just a few hours ago playing Mark of the Assassin about the lines used in dialogue, Anders called my mHawke 'love' after a certain scene. I'm not sure if it was the word itself or the tone, but it seemed *very* jarring. I could expect him to refer to a romanced femHawke like that (the tone was very "hey damsel in distress, I'm gonna rescue you!") but it was noticeably odd, in my opinion.

It doesn't mean there needs to be two versions of the dialogue, but perhaps instead of trying to write gender-neutral dialogue (or dialogue where things seem jarring), the writers could explore some more subtle differences.

For the vast majority of the romance dialogue, though, I don't think there should that much difference. The romances are still only a small part of the game and putting in things like three different methods or paths of seduction seems a little like overkill.

[Estelindis]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I noticed just a few hours ago playing Mark of the Assassin about the lines used in dialogue, Anders called my mHawke 'love' after a certain scene. I'm not sure if it was the word itself or the tone, but it seemed *very* jarring. I could expect him to refer to a romanced femHawke like that (the tone was very "hey damsel in distress, I'm gonna rescue you!") but it was noticeably odd, in my opinion.

It doesn't mean there needs to be two versions of the dialogue, but perhaps instead of trying to write gender-neutral dialogue (or dialogue where things seem jarring), the writers could explore some more subtle differences.  

Interesting.  If one did decide to write and record two versions of the dialogue, what term of affection would you use?  (I understand that you might strongly prefer gender-neutral ways of addressing the player, so no need to answer if you'd rather not.)

[ElitePinecone]

Hm, possibly just "Hawke"? It was more the tone than anything else, I don't have much of a problem with terms of endearment except when they sound out of place.

To sort of clarify: gender-specific dialogue for s/s is fantastic, and I definitely support using it wherever possible given budgets and writing. But when it can't be used I'd much rather have gender neutral lines; currently some of Anders and mHawke's lines (I haven't got around to doing the others) sound like they're geared towards a femHawke. It's not a bad thing, necessarily, just a little jarring.

[Estelindis]

Well, at least it's comforting to know that it's not just myself who can't think of terms that suit m/m more than m/f. ;-) My closest gay friends tend to prefer "dear one," if that's any help.

[Cootie]

My goodness, it might just be my memory being a bit wonky, but is this thread actually longer than the old one now? O.o

I mean, I'm not complaining, I'm just noting the milestones.

[ElitePinecone]

Cootie wrote...

My goodness, it might just be my memory being a bit wonky, but is this thread actually longer than the old one now? O.o

I mean, I'm not complaining, I'm just noting the milestones.

We've had a couple of threads with this title over the year(s). 

But yeah, this is getting quite long. It's nice to see that most of it came from discussions and speculation about s/s in ME3 that were positive rather than argumentative.  

[Raikas]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Hm, possibly just "Hawke"? It was more the tone than anything else, I don't have much of a problem with terms of endearment except when they sound out of place.

To sort of clarify: gender-specific dialogue for s/s is fantastic, and I definitely support using it wherever possible given budgets and writing. But when it can't be used I'd much rather have gender neutral lines; currently some of Anders and mHawke's lines (I haven't got around to doing the others) sound like they're geared towards a femHawke. It's not a bad thing, necessarily, just a little jarring.

Heh, I was just playing that and it's funny  (or just more proof of how subjective tone is) but I actually find a lot of the non-gendered romance lines from Anders  (like the "Save me, love!"  line in Legacy)  to be too aggressive to feel right for femHawke.   I would totally agree that the the "He is cute" line seemed a bit wrong for mHawke, but that one stands out for me as the main one that didn't work.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 12 octobre 2011 - 09:41 .

[The Uncanny]

Cootie wrote...

My goodness, it might just be my memory being a bit wonky, but is this thread actually longer than the old one now? O.o

I mean, I'm not complaining, I'm just noting the milestones.

This is the longest runing s/s support forum thread that I'm aware of.

[Cootie]

It's nice to see that an overall positive attitude's as long-lasting as a 300-ish page argument-loop.

Asari aren't women!
Ah dun want nuh Anders!
And I dun want mah kids ta lurn 'bout dem pen0r-touchings.

Instead, we've got people hoping, and holding their breaths for something supernice.
It's very refreshing and very special.
So, like, keep making me smile, you lot.

[Captain_Obvious]

The "Asari aren't female" one is my absolute favorite, followed closely by "won't someone think of the children." Those are pretty priceless. While DA2 wasn't perfect in the presentation of the S/S relationships, I think it got the right idea across, and it makes me hopeful it will be beyond awesome in ME3. How many days left? I don't think I can make it...

[Ravensword]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

The "Asari aren't female" one is my absolute favorite, followed closely by "won't someone think of the children." Those are pretty priceless. While DA2 wasn't perfect in the presentation of the S/S relationships, I think it got the right idea across, and it makes me hopeful it will be beyond awesome in ME3. How many days left? I don't think I can make it...

I don't really consider them female since they have only one gender. They have distinctly feminine features and there's nothing wrong w/ using feminine pronouns when referring to Asari. The same would be true if the Asari were a race w/ distinclty masculine features. I like to imagine how things would be if it turned out to be the ladder.

It seems that a lot of the people w/in this community consider the ability to romance Liara as a huge win for the LGBT community when most likely the concept of inculding a mono-gender race of all female aliens or feminine-looking most likely was though up by a heterosexual male since the majority of gamers are men and the majority of those men are heterosexual. Any sort of consideration for the LGBT community was probably merely an afterthought until they announced the inclusion of s/s romances.

I'm sure most people have noticed certain users w/ banners in their sigs saying "I SUPPORT HETEROSEXUALITY IN MASS EFFECT." Well, that's nice. i'm glad that there are people who support heterosexual relationships as well as homosexual relationships around here. People should have the right to be happy w/ their same sex sex partner, their opposite sex sex partner, or both. Everyone should be represented any sort of media. Yeah, that's right.

[katerinafm]

Personally I consider Asari to be women. Just a personal opinion, but to me it doesn't matter if in the game they are supposed to be a monogendered species; if they look female and take on a female role (give birth etc), they are considered female by me, and the relationships with fShep I consider to be s/s.

I think (and again, just a personal opinion) that it's mostly the heterosexual male gamers that keep repeating the 'asari are not female' argument to say something back to the LGBT community that sees it as s/s. And most het male gamers like f/f and don't really consider it gay (and gay equals to OHNO for most of them) because it's 'hot'.

So, for me, there was always s/s in mass effect, but it was just not fair to both sexes. And there are some gamers that demand to get more stuff and exactly how they want them to be. But in ME3 hopefully all sides will be satisfied (with the exception of people against s/s that are going to whine about it for just being in the game)