25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I'm not sure if the confrontation scenes are a good benchmark, since they're more a result of Shepard being vague about who s/he was approaching than any actual cheating.

[ElitePinecone]

Abispa wrote...

The argument that Shepard COULD be a gay man attracted to Asari is a good one. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to love and it could happen. Female Shepard tells Liara that she never expected to find love in the arms of a Turian. Garrus doesn't find humans attractive yet can still fall for Shepard.

Only if we're talking about attraction in a general sense. Romantic attraction, you might call it - interest in someone's character and 'person' rather than just sexually. 

I find the military example you used a bit unconvincing: a "straight" person who falls for someone of their own gender sexually was never straight, circumstances aside. Sexual attraction to asari for humans must involve some sort of appreciation of the female form, at some level. I can accept that a gay man or straight woman would find asari romantically intriguing (of the femShep/Garrus, maleShep/Tali, femShep/Thane mould), but to suggest they could find an asari physically attractive is unreasonable. 

Unless you roleplayed some elaborate scheme whereby an ostensibly gay Shepard encountered Liara, realised their true feelings (some kind of bisexuality?) and confessed undying love, the whole thing feels incredibly unlikely. 

Not to mention unrealistic. "Love isn't set in stone" might be a nice platitude, but asari aren't magical space sirens and human sexuality isn't so fluid that a person who was only ever gay (and who lacks undiscovered or unnoticed bisexuality, etc) would switch to an alien with a female figure. It's fine if you want to roleplay a character that way, but I find it very unconvincing. 

On cheating: despite the salivating adolescent males looking for "omg sexy catfights", I think a more restrained confrontation is a better idea. 

[Quething]

ME's history isn't real promising in that regard, though. Look at ME1: Kaidan is pretty calm about Shep talking to Liara, Ashley makes racist cracks (I love Ash but that's an ugly moment for her). And ME2: Legion and Tali work out their differences and make overtures of friendship even for Renegade Shep, Miranda meets Jack childish contempt for childish contempt even for Paragon Shep. There's a definite pattern of the female-female rivalries being much more immature and venomous than those involving a male (ok so Legion isn't a male but... yes, he is).

[shepskisaac]

Quething wrote...

There's a definite pattern of the female-female rivalries being much more immature and venomous than those involving a male (ok so Legion isn't a male but... yes, he is).

Let's be honest, these female "gonna insult and swear to get mah man!" catfights are also part of "male fantasy" ever-so-obvious theme in ME....

[Xilizhra]

What actual speciesist remark does Liara make in the case of a confrontation?

[Quething]

It's not in the case of a confrontation. As soon as you talk to Liara the first time, the Liara romance goes "active." You can shut it off in the second conversation, by telling her you're not interested. Likewise, Ashley's romance goes active in her first conversation, and you have to cut it off by picking a jerk response at some point.

Therefore, if you talk to Ashley, and then talk to Liara once, and then talk to Ashley again, she will perceive "both romances active," and will open her conversation with a really spiteful jealous comment. I don't remember the exact wording because I go out of my way to avoid triggering it (mostly because it doesn't allow my Ashmancing Shep to make an in-character response), but she implies that the best of all possible reasons Shep could have for spending time with Liara is explicit orders from Command to "make nice with the bug-eyed aliens."

Her comment to a femShep who romances Liara is a little mean-spirited too. :/

[erilben]

Chris L'Etoile hated Liara though. He called her a "little tramp" once. He said that she wasn't written to be like a real woman. That she's just a wish fulfillment. It's not surprising that that his character, Ashley, says nasty things about Liara.

[Xilizhra]

Her comment to a femShep who romances Liara is a little mean-spirited too. :/

And for some reason, I don't remember that either, though it's been a while since I did ME1.

Chris L'Etoile hated Liara though. He called her a "little tramp" once. He said that she wasn't written to be like a real woman. That she's just a wish fulfillment. It's not surprising that that his character, Ashley, says nasty things about Liara.

And he's the one who claimed that Ashley wasn't xenophobic, right? My belief in that just dipped a little.

[ElitePinecone]

erilben wrote...

Chris L'Etoile hated Liara though. He called her a "little tramp" once. He said that she wasn't written to be like a real woman. That she's just a wish fulfillment. It's not surprising that that his character, Ashley, says nasty things about Liara.

That's interesting... I had no idea he'd said that. 

Although, he did depart the team after ME and it looks like (to fans, at least) whoever did Liara's writing made her romance much more than just fanservice or wish fulfillment. She might not be "a real woman", but she has her own dynamics with Shepard and I think this works quite well. 

I wonder who took over Ashley's writing? Mac Walters?

[Abispa]

Are you talking about Ashley saying, "Hey, maybe I should ask her about her sex life?" about Liara? The idea that Asari are blue space tramps was not unique to Ashley, as just about 90% of the the background chatter about Asari is sexual in nature. Liara even mentioned that all the other aliens tend to think of the Asari as easy and sleazy, particularly the males.

I actually think that the Asari play into that role voluntarily. Part of it could be the writers playing up the stereotypical male fantasy, and another could just be Bioware creating a race that takes Morrigan's attitude to using sexuality to manipulate others. "A male will always assume two things about a woman, One, that she is weak, and two, that she finds him attractive."

As for Liara's writing, I do think that she appeared to be "wish fulfilment" in ME1, but that in LotSB she suddenly developed a backbone and gave an impression that she could survive not being Shepard's main squeeze and for the first time I found her a worthy "accessory" for my Shepard (not a slam on Liara, blue fans, I consider ALL LIs to be merely accessories to personalize my heroes).

Modifié par Abispa, 16 octobre 2011 - 07:07 .

[Cootie]

Abispa wrote...

[...] for the first time I found her a
worthy "accessory" for my Shepard (not a slam on Liara, blue fans, I
consider ALL LIs to be merely accessories to personalize my heroes).

What is love?

elektrego wrote...

Haven't posted here much lately, mostly because I adopted a wait and see approach to the s/s romances, but I wanted to say quickly, that this thread is still a delight to read, thanks to the people, who post here regularly. keep it going!

Why, good man, we shall put on strange, unique hats only to further entertain you.
And then we shall perform a little dance.
A fabulous dance.

And we will never ever stop.

[ElitePinecone]

Cootie wrote...

Why, good man, we shall put on strange, unique hats only to further entertain you.
And then we shall perform a little dance.
A fabulous dance.

And we will never ever stop.

[Cootie]

Oh, no, no, no!
I wasn't implying anything, honest. I'm just as sincere as you are, sir.

And, uhm, not to get your hopes up or anything through discussion, but which LIs do you want? O.o
It's always nice when new people pop in and speak up. ^^

[Cootie]

I am also in the Everyone is Bi camp. I liked the knowledge that everyone who wanted to romance someone in Dragon Age 2 could, with some effort.
Sure, it's not realistic, but it's a game about pewpewing dragons and racists with magical projectiles.

[ScotGaymer]

See the problem with the whole everyone is bi arguement in DA2 is that everyone wasnt bisexual actually.
Most folk werent.

For companions:
Of the 9 possible companions 3 are bisexual in all playthrus and all genders; 1 is straight if you are FemHawke and Bisexual if you are ManHawke (Anders); and the remaining 5 are straight (only Sebastian is romancable sorta).

For the world at large:
I can not think of a single example of a bisexual or gay NPC (that isnt a prostitute) in Dragon Age 2 at this time outside of your companion grouping; compare that to Dragon Age Origins which has a few gay/bisexual NPCs like Wade and Herren.
EDIT: Just remembered Seneschal Bran might be gay...Or Bisexual.

So basically in DA2 you have no gay people (EDIT2:Possibly One gay), 3 (and a possible 4) bisexuals, and multitudes of straight folks.
Yeah everyone is bi alright.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:21 .

[slimgrin]

Cootie wrote...

I am also in the Everyone is Bi camp. I liked the knowledge that everyone who wanted to romance someone in Dragon Age 2 could, with some effort.
Sure, it's not realistic, but it's a game about pewpewing dragons and racists with magical projectiles.

I'm not in that camp, but what the hell, I can deal with it...

[Ravensword]

Ferris95 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Oh, I didn't know that. Like i said, I'll most likely never play a DA game ever. Merrill looks like a sweet innocent character? Is she the DA version of Tali?

But twice as adorable.

I just had to bring this up since it's awesome but also to bring the whole bi thing towards the Talimancers. It's strange how probably the vast majority of talimancers didn't have anything to say when BW announced that they would implement s/s romances but mention to them that you support a bi Talimance and then they mobilize against you and start parroting the arguments that many of the anti-s/s people made, despite not even having any say in the whole s/s thing.

[Abispa]

@ FitScotGaymer -- I don't think Cootie meant "everyone is bi" as a bad thing, only that s/he(?) thinks that the LIs should be "bi" or hero-sexual romantic options. I myself have that view, that all the LIs should be available to either gender of hero UNLESS the writers feel that the LI has to be straight or gay.

[Cootie]

Abispa got it spot-on, but I don't think FitScotGaymer was pointing out how awful the Hero-sexual argument is, but rather ranting about the whole "AMG DA2 is so ghey and it's catering to the gays and blah-di-blah"-stigma associated with it.
As well as maybe being a teensy bit literal. ;3


I do seem to have an issue with clarity on the intrawebs, where my warm demeanor, spectacular hand gestures and prominent nose can't help me get my point across.

[Dhiro]

Guy.

Guys.

They're all bi.

@Ravensword

I find that somewhat amusing, considering that Tali is pratically yelling how much ready her body is for some FemQuarian/FemHuman action in my current FemShep run.

[Athayniel]

I've made my opinions pretty clear already but my preference would be that all LIs be available for romancing by both genders of protagonist. That isn't the same as saying all-bi LIs because the sexual preference of a character is only revealed in their writing, not in the meta-property of them being an LI available for romancing. For instance, Isabella clearly identifies herself in-universe as bisexual, as does Zevran. But other characters, such as Merril I believe, make no reference to their sexuality beyond the act of falling for the protagonist. And even then, it is not beyond the bounds of probability for a character to define themselves in-universe in a way that is not expressed in the meta. BioWare were not forced to make Isabella romanceable at all, let alone romanceable by femHawkes.

Suffice it to say that the availablility of a character for romancing is not indicative of how their sexuality will be rendered in-universe in any particular playthrough. Kaidan may get all hot and bothered for dudeShep in one game while showing no interest in men sexually in a femShep playthrough. As long as each playthrough is internally consistent then it is a non-issue. Even in two separate manShep games, Kaiden's predilections may be completely unknown in one and made abundantly clear in another with the only difference being Shepard's actions and dialogue.

[ElitePinecone]

I support all LIs available for both genders in principle, and I guess we'll just have to wait and see for ME3.

Regarding meta-sexuality: from everything I've read (especially posts by David Gaider), it was never his intention to have characters "switch" sexualities between genders of Hawke. If Anders looks 'straight' to a female Hawke and 'bisexual' to a mHawke, this is just interpretation. He's always bisexual, regardless of what it appears in individual playthroughs.

Like Athayniel said, it's entirely possible (and even more likely) that NPCs don't explicitly state their sexuality one way or another, and whatever the player interprets it as is very open.

"the sexual preference is only revealed in their writing" is a good way to put it. Players don't know either way, and unless the character states it we can only assume from their actions within the internal universe.