25715 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

Ravensword wrote...

You keep talking that way and I might actually have to get DA2. Do I have to get DA:O as well so I can carry over saves as well and stuff?

My views on DA2 aside, the carry over from DA:O is largely minimal.  You may be able to download saves or manufacture them with mods.

I'd recommend playing DA:O, though, if for no other reason than that it is a fantastic game.  It is not without flaws on the gameplay front, but it's an enjoyable game, to say the least.

Sigh... Alistair.  I'll just leave it at that.

[jeweledleah]

Ravensword wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I just saw a FemHawke-Merrill romance courtesy of YouTube. I must say that it is a bit Tali-esque. Very nice![smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

I do recommend that romance if you ever play DA2.  It's the only one I ever pick.  I haven't seen the Talimance in awhile, but I like the Merrill one more b/c she has her own personal quest and the romance ties into it (the same can be said of any DA2 romance, actually). 

This all goes back to my desire that the ME romances would be more than just a couple of conversations on the Normandy that have no bearing on anything else.

You keep talking that way and I might actually have to get DA2. Do I have to get DA:O as well so I can carry over saves as well and stuff?

Yes. I also liked the little conversation they had afterwards and Hawke suggests that she scandalize the neighbors by telling them that she's shacking up w/ and elf. I though to myself. Wouldn't it infinitely more scandalize the neighbors to know that FemHawke is in a romantic relationship w/ another woman? I don't know how the DA world works.

Also that scene got me thinking about something that would be nice to add in ME3 and that is post-coital conversation scene. BW, post-coital convos in ME3. I demand it.

in DA - same sex relationships are seen more or less the same way as
they are in our modern world.  not everyone is happy about them, but for
the most part, they are accepted and relatively commoplace.

Elves however, are seen as second class citizens.  think native americans and blacks before emancipation, so shacking up with an elf, by a member of nobility no less (which is what Hawke is)  is infinitely more shocking then shacking up with a woman.

my major beef with DA2 was the annoyance of friendship/rivalry system.  specificaly - unlike DAO i coudln't just stick to a set party and just go questing  (in DAO - figuring out aproval/disaproval was much easier - you wanted to play a goody two shoes - just bring Alistair, Leliana and Wynne with you.  want to play expedient warden?  bring Shale, Sten and Morrigan.  plus you could buy their aproval with gifts and generaly their leaving or staying with a party depended more on specific actions rather then just how far into aproval you were with them)  withDA2 - its a lot trickier in my experience, Icoudln't even enjoy the game before getting an addon that let me switch out party members at will, isntead of having to go to designated areas.

also, you'll see more difference between frienshipand rivaly relationships then s/s vs m/f, as they are basicaly copy pastes of each other.

P.S.  personaly, I prefer Isabela   even though you might have to look up a few guildes for her.  Merrill is a lot easier to deal with, but Isabela is more fun.  /personal opinion

Modifié par jeweledleah, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:20 .

[ElitePinecone]

Echoing what jeweledleash said about s/s in Thedas - it's usually tolerated, even accepted. The exception would be nobility, I think, I heard it mentioned that marriage and an heir is necessary even if there's no love involved. Certainly Ferelden is fine with it, there were a pair of gay knights (or maybe they were Grey Wardens?) in one of the novels.

The DA setting kinda gave the writers a free rein, and so Thedas is full of women in combat, at the head of churches and with plenty of LGBT themes.

[MACharlie1]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Echoing what jeweledleash said about s/s in Thedas - it's usually tolerated, even accepted. The exception would be nobility, I think, I heard it mentioned that marriage and an heir is necessary even if there's no love involved. Certainly Ferelden is fine with it, there were a pair of gay knights (or maybe they were Grey Wardens?) in one of the novels.

The DA setting kinda gave the writers a free rein, and so Thedas is full of women in combat, at the head of churches and with plenty of LGBT themes.

It's actually considered unusual for a man to be the head of a church in the Chantry. 

[Quething]

Yeah, the nobility are expected to marry; Hawke's mother will comment all wink-wink-nudge about Hawke's s/s lover and then in the same breath talk about finding a suitable o/s spouse. (Isabela is not my piece on the side, Mom, Makerdammit, I don't care that she'd be fine with it, I am not.)

Though at least you do get that passing comment from Leandra. Still waiting on Hannah Shepard to make mention of the potential of little blue grandchildren, or whatever. I know only a third of Sheps have family that we know of, but it's still worth some dev time. I wonder how she'd react to Ashley (a Spacer would know the name Williams), or Garrus (what little sense can be made of the timeline suggests she fought in the First Contact War).

[Ravensword]

I see how it is. So when Hawke and Merrill walk by people say, "Oh, look! A wholesome lesbian couple. Hmm, something is amiss. Is that an elf with a human? Seize them forthwith!"

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...
what little sense can be made of the timeline

Heh. 

I'd like a comment from Hannah as well; even apart from the awesome voice actor (the same as Helena Blake, which gives my Shepard weird vibes) I think it'd add some poignancy to the relationships. Even a throwaway line after a transmission would be helpful for immersion. 

Regarding nobility, it's slightly off-topic but the human noble Warden in DA:O can s/s romance (well, it's more like a booty call) Dairren/Iona and there doesn't seem to be any negative connotations at all. It was actually really refreshing to have that trope subverted, high fantasy often includes noble offspring seducing somebody and it was awesome to see that it could be done with either gender. If I recall correctly, the reaction from the older brother is the same (positive/supportive) regardless of who the Warden romances. It's always possible Ferelden nobility allows a 'young and wild' stage, or that it doesn't matter for the Warden since they're the second child, but it was nice that nobody cared about who they chose. 

@MacCharlie: Yeah, I just thought it was really interesting to see the theology built up as empowering women (Andraste, the chantry priests, etc) rather than undermining them. 

[Athayniel]

There was dialogue voiced by Oriana, the human noble's sister-in-law, which indicated disapproval but it wasn't used and you can't tell whether it's just general disapproval at the dalliance or specifically about an s/s coupling. The line itself doesn't specify and without the context of where it would have been used it's impossible to tell. She was an Antivan noblewoman, though and they seem a bit more conservative about gender roles in general, such as no women bearing arms and the like.

*edit* Oriana's VA has a great voice too, I could listen to her say "If such a thing were discovered it would bring shame upon this house, sister" over and over. =P If you're gonna get scolded it might as well be by someone who sounds that good.

Modifié par Athayniel, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:04 .

[MageTarot]

lazuli wrote...

Sigh... Alistair.  I'll just leave it at that.

*sneaks in obligatory modded "Alistair Has Switched Teams" image:*



*sneaks back out*

[bleetman]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Regarding nobility, it's slightly off-topic but the human noble Warden in DA:O can s/s romance (well, it's more like a booty call) Dairren/Iona and there doesn't seem to be any negative connotations at all. It was actually really refreshing to have that trope subverted, high fantasy often includes noble offspring seducing somebody and it was awesome to see that it could be done with either gender. If I recall correctly, the reaction from the older brother is the same (positive/supportive) regardless of who the Warden romances. It's always possible Ferelden nobility allows a 'young and wild' stage, or that it doesn't matter for the Warden since they're the second child, but it was nice that nobody cared about who they chose.

Yeah, I was surprised about that as well. Your characters brother teases you about it, but in a 'ho ho, getting some later are you?' kind of way, in front of the entire family, and nobody so much as bats an eye. I also seem to remember my Warden telling her brother that 'men are overrated (as partners/lovers/whatevers)', with no real reaction. It was pleasing.

Athayniel wrote...

There was dialogue voiced by Oriana, the human noble's sister-in-law, which indicated disapproval but it wasn't used and you can't tell whether it's just general disapproval at the dalliance or specifically about an s/s coupling. The line itself doesn't specify and without the context of where it would have been used it's impossible to tell. She was an Antivan noblewoman, though and they seem a bit more conservative about gender roles in general, such as no women bearing arms and the like.

Hmm? What does she say?

Modifié par bleetman, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:02 .

[Athayniel]

bleetman wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

There
was dialogue voiced by Oriana, the human noble's sister-in-law, which
indicated disapproval but it wasn't used and you can't tell whether it's
just general disapproval at the dalliance or specifically about an s/s
coupling. The line itself doesn't specify and without the context of
where it would have been used it's impossible to tell. She was an
Antivan noblewoman, though and they seem a bit more conservative about
gender roles in general, such as no women bearing arms and the like.

Hmm? What does she say?

There are a few lines in that seem to revolve around the topic. I show one in the edit I made above.
Not perfectly accurate but it's something like:
"If such a thing were discovered it would bring shame upon this house, sister."
"If it is true then you must be discrete."
"Take it as the advice of a practical Antivan woman."

I only know about them because modders have found the lines and incorporated them into their mods.

[bleetman]

Oh, those? Those aren't unused*. She says all three in response to the Warden suggesting she has a secret lover. If memory serves, it goes:

Fergus: When you have a man in your life, you'll understand.
Warden: Who says I don't have one now? (Or possibly 'No more than three, please'. I forget which)
Oriana: Such a thing would bring great shame upon this house, sister. But if it's true, you must be discreet.
Fergus: Not sure how I should take that, love.
Oriana: As the advice of a practical Antivan woman, my dear.

So not really a s/s thing. I'm not really sure if she herself disapproves of it anyway, what with offering some advice

(*Hrmm. Unless I have a mod that restores that conversation. I don't think I do, but hrmmmm.)

Modifié par bleetman, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:15 .

[Athayniel]

bleetman wrote...

Oh, those? Those aren't unused. She says all three in response to the Warden suggesting she has a secret lover. If memory serves, it goes:

Fergus: When you have a man in your life, you'll understand.
Warden: Who says I don't have one now? (Or possibly 'No more than three, please'. I forget which)
Oriana: Such a thing would bring great shame upon this house, sister. But if it's true, you must be discreet.
Fergus: Not sure how I should take that, love.
Oriana: As the advice of a practical Antivan woman, my dear.

Hah! Goes to show how my Couslands have no problems just blurting that they're gonna be taking the elven lady-in-waiting to bed. =P I never came across the dialogue before.

*edit* anyway, as I said before, Oriana can scold me anyday. The most upsetting thing to me about the end of the human origin is losing Oriana and Oren and the folks. Not many games give you a family, fewer let you keep them. At least Fergus lives at the end and Howe gets cut up into tiny little pieces.

Modifié par Athayniel, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:21 .

[jlb524]

Seeing that Alistair pic reminds me of all the awful arguments used to justify why he couldn't have been a male romance option in Origins.

Ravensword wrote...
I see how it is. So when Hawke and Merrill walk by people say, "Oh, look! A wholesome lesbian couple. Hmm, something is amiss. Is that an elf with a human? Seize them forthwith!"

Pretty much, though I don't think terms like 'homosexual' or 'lesbian' even exist in the DAverse.  Those terms are even new for us and came about when homosexual behavior became a psychological dysfunction (late 1800s). 

I'd say other nobles would believe Hawke odd for shacking up with a female elf instead of marrying a male noble and having babies (her duty) but they'd think it just as odd if she shacked up with a male elf or a human male commoner.

Quething wrote...
Still waiting on Hannah Shepard to make
mention of the potential of little blue grandchildren, or whatever. I
know only a third of Sheps have family that we know of, but it's still
worth some dev time.

I don't see why they can't have Hannah show up in ME3...they could possibly create a few different models for her like they did with the DA2 family to better match individual Shepards.

Modifié par jlb524, 18 octobre 2011 - 02:24 .

[syllogi]

Cootie wrote...

Point taken, let's change subjects!

Hmm, what if the s/s option in ME3 isn't who you want it to be, or somesuch, would your Shepards still go for it?

Nope.  I'll eventually finish my Liara-Shepard's story, but that's not a priority.  If I got a new s/s romance I was really hoping for, I'd jump on it, but if it's a character I'm not interested in, I'll pass.  I passed on all of the ME2 romances, and the game was probably more enjoyable to me that way.

[who would know]

Cootie wrote...
Hmm, what if the s/s option in ME3 isn't who you want it to be, or somesuch, would your Shepards still go for it?

Nope.

[Cathey]

Cootie wrote...

Hmm, what if the s/s option in ME3 isn't who you want it to be, or somesuch, would your Shepards still go for it?

male no, female yes. I'll do the male ones if it's characters I want, but the female ones I will do regardless. I'll start new games of ME3 (using whatever story editor thing like the comic that they use for ME3) for the s/s romances. All my Sheps ready to import are with Liara and I kinda don't want to cheat on her.

[Duskeyboy]

hi there, i have to ask a quick question; I just got back from marinecorps bootcamp and it lasted three months can you tell me is garrus is s/s i've been hearing half and half, tell me before i get my hopes up.

[Athayniel]

No one has been confirmed either way. They will likely not reveal anything until much closer to the release date if they release any information at all.

[Duskeyboy]

Athayniel wrote...

No one has been confirmed either way. They will likely not reveal anything until much closer to the release date if they release any information at all.

[Abispa]

The only thing confirmed is that there will be no Krogan love. I blame EA; they don't care about the fans.

[Abispa]

Ravensword wrote...

I see how it is. So when Hawke and Merrill walk by people say, "Oh, look! A wholesome lesbian couple. Hmm, something is amiss. Is that an elf with a human? Seize them forthwith!"

Yeah, religion and race would be the main cause for a scandal. There are some comments made from several characters that suggest s/s couples (outside brothels) aren't common, but nothing to indicate that they are perceived as evil or unnatural. I'm not sure what the Qunari view would be since everyone is assigned a role by the state.

[ElitePinecone]

Abispa wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I see how it is. So when Hawke and Merrill walk by people say, "Oh, look! A wholesome lesbian couple. Hmm, something is amiss. Is that an elf with a human? Seize them forthwith!"

Yeah, religion and race would be the main cause for a scandal. There are some comments made from several characters that suggest s/s couples (outside brothels) aren't common, but nothing to indicate that they are perceived as evil or unnatural. I'm not sure what the Qunari view would be since everyone is assigned a role by the state.

Ashaad didn't seem to have a problem with Seamus 

The DA Wiki has a good summary of this, but I'm not sure where the info is from: 

 There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.

Someone posted in the DA forums the other day that Thedas was essentially an exercise in wishful social engineering detatched from "realistic" depictions of high fantasy as basically medieval (the women subjugated and teh gheys unheard of, etc), and I think it's interesting that the ye-olde-medieval setting of Dragon Age has much more positive depictions of LGBT themes than Mass Effect, even when the latter is meant to have (according to the fiction) a futuristic melting-pot human species where social and cultural divisions are almost nonexistent. Is it just that one team is more willing to "go there" than the other? 

Maybe it really does have everything to do with the direction and lead (not to mention the writers), and not so much the setting or whether it would 'fit the universe'. If Dragon Age can do a good job of putting in alternate sexualities without making it cringeworthy or tokenistic, even when it's ostensibly a high-fantasy sword-y magic-y epic, one would think it'd be even easier for Mass Effect. 

[maxernst]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I see how it is. So when Hawke and Merrill walk by people say, "Oh, look! A wholesome lesbian couple. Hmm, something is amiss. Is that an elf with a human? Seize them forthwith!"

Yeah, religion and race would be the main cause for a scandal. There are some comments made from several characters that suggest s/s couples (outside brothels) aren't common, but nothing to indicate that they are perceived as evil or unnatural. I'm not sure what the Qunari view would be since everyone is assigned a role by the state.

Ashaad didn't seem to have a problem with Seamus 

The DA Wiki has a good summary of this, but I'm not sure where the info is from: 

 There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.

Someone posted in the DA forums the other day that Thedas was essentially an exercise in wishful social engineering detatched from "realistic" depictions of high fantasy as basically medieval (the women subjugated and teh gheys unheard of, etc), and I think it's interesting that the ye-olde-medieval setting of Dragon Age has much more positive depictions of LGBT themes than Mass Effect, even when the latter is meant to have (according to the fiction) a futuristic melting-pot human species where social and cultural divisions are almost nonexistent. Is it just that one team is more willing to "go there" than the other? 

Maybe it really does have everything to do with the direction and lead (not to mention the writers), and not so much the setting or whether it would 'fit the universe'. If Dragon Age can do a good job of putting in alternate sexualities without making it cringeworthy or tokenistic, even when it's ostensibly a high-fantasy sword-y magic-y epic, one would think it'd be even easier for Mass Effect. 

While it's true that medieval European societies that resembled DA were very homophobic and sexist, is it really unrealistic to think that having a female dominated religious hierarchy and magic (which means that women are not necessarily inferior in personal might) might significantly alter a society's views on gender and sexuality?

For whatever reason, Mass Effect has just completely ignored the
possibility of same sex relations (No, Liara doesn't count), while being
perfectly ok with cross-species relationships which I find difficult to
imagine.  And frankly, the ME series is a bit weak on explanations of social and cultural norms, so I don't know of anything to account for them.  And if you use gameplay as your basis, you would have to assume that homosexual activity in the ME universe is extremely hidden, which seems...odd on the basis of what we know about the society. 

[Quething]

Let's not build up the DAverse as the perfect be-all end-all, here. Zev and Leliana are your two bi options in DA:O; they're also the two former honey trap assassins who use their sexuality as a weapon, skirting incredibly close to the Depraved Bisexual trope. Zev has been in love once, with a woman, and will explain that men are pretty much an exception for him. Leliana was in love once, also with a woman, but a woman who used her and left her for torture and death. Isabela's less stark in her morally questionable nature because of the "all bi LI" thing, but it's worth noting her one pre-Hawke love is also a male. Karl is twice Anders' age and that reads pretty easily as a predatory student/teacher thing, if you're even fortunate enough to hear about it, since he won't tell a female Hawke. There are no strong, healthy queer relationships either past or current in the DAverse outside the PC's own, if the PC so chooses. There are a metric crapton of healthy straight ones, though.

Also, the MEverse doesn't have the sarcastically named "Female" Dwarf. Serendipity is a bit better, but that's hardly an endorsement. And relatedly, Bran's presumed bisexuality is still put forward as a lewd joke about politicians and prostitutes, rather than a simple character note.

My extreme reservations about asari aside, the way the story talks about Benezia and [probably] Aetheyta, or Samara and her former bondmate, is far ahead of anything in Dragon Age. Everything else is rather behind, of course. I'm just saying, let's keep things in perspective here.

*Unless you count Wade and Herren, but I am of the "a character is straight until explicitly proven otherwise in the text itself" school of queer litcrit. You don't get to count it as queer inclusion until even the dudebros who never read an interview or codex in their lives know it's queer inclusion.