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[ElitePinecone]

MACharlie1 wrote...

I know I'll get flak for this but...

In terms of characterization and just general "life" of characters - DA blows ME out of the water. All the characters in DA (both Origins and II) felt real - they all interacted with each other and you felt like each of them was different and everything you said mattered in terms of who you were with. You really got to know and each of the characters relationship with the main character - their feelings, motivations, etc. ME is unfortunately pretty linear in this department. What you say really doesn't make a difference except when you want to bang. 

I have to agree, to a large extent - though for some reason Shepard's conversation with Chakwas (and probably Liara in LotSB) strikes me as how fantastic ME's characterisation could be if the player was given agency to express an opinion once in a while, and the companions felt like an integral part of the ship rather than a person making up the squad. I especially like DA's interaction between the companions (with banter), which ME2 especially really lacked. 

Cootie wrote...

Maybe avoid those traps that made a lot of people uncomfortable? Like that one infamous scene with Anders where you can't let him down easy?
Oh, and please, don't force us to shower our LIs with gifts a la DA:O.

I really liked the Rival-system, though. Hm, would that be interesting in ME-3?

Avoid the traps, definitely. I think this is a given, if even Gaider is having second thoughts about having had Anders approach Hawke rather than the other way around, I'd be really surprised if the ME team did something similar. Even if ME doesn't include a rivalry system (and I don't think it will) and there aren't any consequences for turning someone turn, it'd be easier to avoid the controversy entirely in the first place. 

I'm more of a fan of ME's loyalty system (tied to a quest) than DA2's rivalry/friendship, because the latter tended to dissolve into metagaming (for me, at least) and it was difficult to juggle roleplaying a character and bringing the party members you want and ensuring that companions don't end up in a muddled mid-friendship/rivalry point which is pointless for quests and the story. 

I guess I just prefer the content to err on the side of accessibility (done through quests and morality) rather than on the side of difficulty (where one decision alienates three or four companions while satisfying one or two). DA2's system is probably more realistic, but it's certainly more complex (and, I think, difficult).

[Athayniel]

Quething wrote...

And hey, now there's a thought. We've talked before about how it'd be nice if more characters responded the way Samara did, with different relationships and availablilty between Renegade and Paragon Sheps (even if Samara, the ultimate Renegade, is an oddly backward choice), but what about other stuff?

Actually I wouldn't call Samara a renegade by any stretch of the imagination. She takes the pragmatism of a renegade but combines it with the guardian nature of the paragon. We've aready seen how she would give up pursuit on a someone in order to protect innocents put in danger. I'd call her a Paragade certainly, which is why the Paragon/Renegade dichotomy of her relationship with Shep seems like lazy programming to me. It is perfectly possible to be more Renegade than Paragon and never do anything dishonourable at all.

[Athayniel]

Abispa wrote...

I don't mean to make this a DA thread, but my own experience is that DA:O is higher quality game and DOES have more options than DA2, but that the parts that are nearly identical in all the play-throughs are so amazingly long and painful after the second run that I often give up. I have a dozen or so characters I never bothered to take to the end because of the Fade and the Deep Roads segments.

FoxHound109 wrote...

Dragon Age II is superior to Origins if only because it doesn't have the God awful Fade maze.

I'll assume you guys are playing on the 360 because there's a mod to skip the fade for the PC version. I don't mind the Fade.

[maxernst]

Quething wrote...

Wynne is screwed up? Alistair is screwed up? And who said I was limiting comparisons to the party? Are Malcolm and Leandra screwed up? Fergus and Orana, Elanor and Bryce? Does Eamon not clearly love Isolde? Does Cyrion not speak of Anaya as the light of his life? What about that family whose daughter you help out in the City Elf origin, or Mahariel's mother who loved her husband so much she died of a broken heart, or even Rica and Bhelen for a casteless Brosca?

And of course, Aveline and Donnic. Carver flirting with Merrill and Sebastian with Bethany. The one good person in Isabela's life. There is not a shortage of healthy het relationships in the Dragon Age verse.

Of course, there are men at the brothels and a few obscure s/s mentions in the codex, so I suppose they're still doing better at non-PC worldbuilding than ME.

Well, some people consider Wynne a case of Stockholm syndrome, but in any case, neither of them have a successful heterosexual relationship in their past that we know of (yes, Wynne had a child, but we know nothing about the father).  Flirting is not a serious relationship.  The reason I limited the discussion to the companions is that we don't know that much about the relationships outside them. There are more heterosexual relationships and there are a hell of a lot of dysfunctional ones in the games as well.  And even in the ones you cited, Eamon is twenty years older than Isolde and it was probably an arranged marriage--what makes you think that's any better than Karl and Anders?

[snfonseka]

All I am saying please don't convert every character into bi-sex like in DA2. Because it is so stupid (yea, BW employees can defend that all they want but we are living in a world with people with different sexualities; not all are bi, straight or gay). If they want to introduce same sex relationships, then introduce one or two gay characters. Converting all the characters into bi-sex is really lazy way of doing things.

But if I remembered correctly, Casey said that they won't convert all the characters into bi-sex, if that's true it is really a good thing (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

[Wulfram]

If the codex is to be believed, Eamon and Isolde wasn't an arranged marriage.

Isolde met Eamon, not realizing he was the rightful heir to her father's domain, and quickly became smitten with him for being part of the resistance--never mind that it was her family he was resisting. Perhaps a bit too romantic for her own good, she insisted upon staying behind with Eamon when the rest of her family was driven out.

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:21 .

[Athayniel]

snfonseka wrote...

All I am saying please don't convert every character into bi-sex like in DA2. Because it is so stupid (yea, BW employees can defend that all they want but we are living in a world with people with different sexualities; not all are bi, straight or gay). If they want to introduce same sex relationships, then introduce one or two gay characters. Converting all the characters into bi-sex is really lazy way of doing things.

But if I remembered correctly, Casey said that they won't convert all the characters into bi-sex, if that's true it is really a good thing (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

Ok, first of all, BioWare have already said they will not introduce exclusively s/s LI into a game in the foreseeable future. There simply is no margin for making content which most of the playerbase simply wouldn't experience.

Secondly, considering that it doesn't take much more in the way of resources to make a LI available as a s/s romance on top of o/s romance, by making it as gender neutral as possible you can re-use a lot of content, it makes sense to make a LI available for both gender of protagonist.

Thirdly, why is it stupid? In DA2 only Isabella was actually open about her bisexuality. The rest, with the exception of Anders in a playthrough with a male!Hawke, didn't even mention their sexuality unless you romanced them, they could have all been straight for all your Hawke knew. Whenever you say that everyone was bi in DA2 what you actually mean is that you, as the player, know that these four characters, not even a majority of the party let alone Thedas, are available for either gender of Hawke to romance. Nowhere in that is their sexuality implied or revealed in any way. If Hawke doesn't romance Merril or Fenris they may as well be called straight.

Fourthly, once it has been decided to make LIs available for romancing by both genders it becomes a question of fairness and giving the player as much choice as possible. With DA:O out of the four romanceable NPCs, only two were available to both genders, which meant that heterosexual wardens had two choices for each gender and homosexual wardens had only one choice each. Bisexual wardens had three choices but that's one of the benefits of swinging both ways, the other being able to cloak yourself in myth and legend and move about the world unseen. What if gay!Warden just didn't like Zevran? Well, he was sh*t outta luck. What about all those lesbian wardens who thought Leliana just wasn't powerhungry or morally ambiguous enough for their tastes and cursed Morrigan's heterosexuality to high heavens?

In conclusion, real world demographics have no place in this discussion. They are completely irrelevant in deciding which and how many characters should be made into LIs available to both genders.

Modifié par Athayniel, 20 octobre 2011 - 04:46 .

[AngelicMachinery]

snfonseka wrote...

All I am saying please don't convert every character into bi-sex like in DA2. Because it is so stupid (yea, BW employees can defend that all they want but we are living in a world with people with different sexualities; not all are bi, straight or gay). If they want to introduce same sex relationships, then introduce one or two gay characters. Converting all the characters into bi-sex is really lazy way of doing things.

But if I remembered correctly, Casey said that they won't convert all the characters into bi-sex, if that's true it is really a good thing (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

All I'm saying is why does it matter? 

Does realism really bother you that much in your game?   If so,  I would suggest moving away from fantasy and sci-fi in the first place.  It offers the ability to well completely ignore the norms of modern society and subsitute something that is more appealing to the author and perhaps the audience.  It's part of the fun of exploring a world that we aren't part of naturally.  So what if four to five people want to get into your pants regardless of your gender?  

As is, since Bioware is concerned about profits they aren't going to put up the cash flow for strictly gay and lesbian characters.  We've heard it from the horses mouth so as is I don't think the issue of a group of bisexual happen to take up the cause of adventuring is all that pressing.  

Also speaking of the "Normal world"  people usually don't decide your a superstud for simply agreeing with them.  If we're simply going to make things "Realistic." I demand stats such as personal beauty and charisma to help decide if you are capable of seducing people.  Not to mention can we work in Paragon and Renegade in there?  Not everyone wants to get into a relationship with a paragon of virtue or a magnificent bastard.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 20 octobre 2011 - 06:06 .

[Abispa]

snfonseka wrote...

But if I remembered correctly, Casey said that they won't convert all the characters into bi-sex, if that's true it is really a good thing (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *Gasp* Ahem... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! *Tinkle.*



I think the fact that ME3 will feature most of the ME2 suicide squad as part-time participants (IF they survived) had more to do with their decision to limit previous LI as s/s options than any desire for...

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Ahem, sorry.

...for maintaining "realistic" ME sexuality.

[Athayniel]

I don't think the uncertain mortality of the ME2 NPCs should preclude them being s/s LIs in ME3, actually. If it were something plot relevant I might agree with you, but romances are entirely optional and never touch the main story progression.

Mind you I personally don't think BioWare should limit the plot relevance of the NPCs because they could be dead. Look at Wrex. If they were willing to employ more "substitutes" or to have a priority list among the characters to determine who gets the plot relevant role in any given playthrough.

[shepskisaac]

snfonseka wrote...

All I am saying please don't convert every character into bi-sex like in DA2. Because it is so stupid (yea, BW employees can defend that all they want but we are living in a world with people with different sexualities; not all are bi, straight or gay). If they want to introduce same sex relationships, then introduce one or two gay characters. Converting all the characters into bi-sex is really lazy way of doing things.

And in real world most people take looks, personality, morality and everything else into consideration when entering a relationship, while all the ME franchise everyone goes for Shepard no matter if he/she is beautiful or super-ugly, no matter if he/she is holier than thou or a sociopath woman-beater and serial killer. Not to mention, it's completly unrealistic that 90% of male Shepard's female squadmates are into him, only Kasumi doesn't have any feelings/interest in him. This doesn't happen even to the most beautiful, powerful bosses/leaders/officers.

I get your point, but talking about realism in the context of availability of LIs in ME franchise is nonsense.

snfonseka wrote...
But if I remembered correctly, Casey said that they won't convert all the characters into bi-sex

Exactly, and Mac Walters later confirmed it again not all characters will be available for s/s romance so why are you even 'worried'?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 20 octobre 2011 - 10:19 .

[AngelicMachinery]

I'm in ur thread double posting.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 20 octobre 2011 - 10:31 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Athayniel wrote...

I don't think the uncertain mortality of the ME2 NPCs should preclude them being s/s LIs in ME3, actually.

I might have explained myself incorrectly.  I was merely suggesting if we were going to make mass effects romances as "realistic" as possible.  Which seems to be very important to people a characters actions for good or bad should matter.  Not just the three or four conversations you have with them on the normandy.

[Quething]

So many debates going at once!

a) The presence of dysfunctional heterosexual relationships is meaningless. It's cancelled out by the existence of so many positive ones. The dysfunctional queer relationships have no such ameliorating factor.

I'm going to echo the "skip the fade mod" chorus. The other huge, huge advantage DA:O has over DA2 is the presence of the toolset. If things are bugged, broken or annoying in DA:O, the community can actually fix them. In DA2 we just have to live with it.

c) I don't think the Wrex/Wreav thing is actually a good example of how things should be done. It felt very... handwave-y. Like, your choice about Wrex in ME1 was basically meaningless, because here, we'll just give you a clone who can do all the same stuff. The impact on the story was basically negligible.

Now, Wrex in charge is obviously a far better thing for the krogan in the long run, while Wreav is just another short-sighted warlord, so we may see some good payoff on that in ME3, but still. The idea of "substitutes" like if someone's plot-important, just swap in a placeholder character... it doesn't sit well with me. And I definitely can't see how it would mesh with romantic relationships. If Thane's dead and his brother takes his place on the Kajhe mission, it's not like you're going to romance him instead, you know? So that's still content that not enough people would see even with the wider plot-importance.

d) Samara is Renegade as hell, man. She's exactly what Renegade Shepard is supposed to be; someone who lays down the law for the sake of good. She slaughtered a village to get to Morinth. You know what kind of morality points Shep gets for slaughtering a village to get to the Thorian? She murdered an Eclipse merc who was technically armed but posed her no threat, just for refusing to give her info. You know what kind of morality points Shep gets for kicking an armed but effectively helpless Eclipse merc out a window for refusing to give info? Her resolution to murder her way out of the police station, killing legit local authority in the process, because her mission is more important, is certainly not more paragon than Renegade Shep's decision to let the legit Council authority die through inaction because Sovvy was more important.

Yeah, she took the paragon option with Nihlus, but my emotionally broken infiltrator took the paragon option on Feros. She still ended both games so deep in the red you could have mistaken her for a krogan at a distance.

e) How exactly did they "convert" every character to "bi-sex" in DA2? Fenris and Aveline and Hawke didn't even exist prior to the game, they can't have been "converted" to anything. Izzy was blatantly bi the first time we met her. Even if you're going to inanely argue that Merrill's lack of a rainbow flag wrapped around her face in Mahariel's origin somehow proves she was straight, this "convert every character" complaint is pretty spurious.

[Abispa]

As for Samara being a "renegade," I kinda sorta disagree. Not because what she does isn't morally reprehensible (it is), but because she "follows a code" that DEMANDS that she makes certain choices, including the "renegade" ones Quething lists. My understanding of Shepard renegade is someone who refuses to be bound by any imposed moral code, and Shepard makes many renegade choices gleefully at times for no other reasons than s/he likes being a bad-ass. If Samara is to be believed, her options to kill helpless, controlled or innocent people is predetermined by her "code."

Her "religion" is INSANE, and I wonder how she gets so much respect when Ashley gets labeled as a religious xenophobe because she thinks her dad is with God and she doesn't think the Council has humanity's best interests at heart (something the ME games pretty much confirm countless times).

[Quething]

Well, that's why I said that Samara's what Renegade Shep is supposed to be; the whole "badass for the sake of being badass" or "assh*le for the sake of being an assh*le" was never how the morality system was pitched to us. It was very explicitly not meant to be "Dark Side/Light Side", it was supposed to be two different ways to be a hero. Basically, are you Golden Age Batman, or Silver Age Batman? Both are good men, both do the right thing, neither is cruel, both hate evil in all its forms. But one follows the law and treats his enemies with kindness, and the other skirts the law and kills dudes what need killing, though he does it with regret.

Neither would recruit Morinth or punch a civilian for doing her job. Darkside Revan totally would, though.

(Not that Samara's not morally reprehensible, mind. But she's still compassionate and acts out of a belief that she's making the world better, not her own sense of sadistic self-satisfaction, and is thus still closer to what Renegade was sold to us as than Renegade!Shep often manages, particularly in ME2.)

[Xilizhra]

I will say that Samara has a lot more respect for a Paragon Shepard than a Renegade one, probably because Paragon Shepard seems to carry her own code, and can very often pull off situations in which no one has to die.

[Quething]

I don't know about that. She thanks RenShep for her friendship, and tells her she'll go out of her way to avoid running into her in the future. My Butcher!Shep felt the same: I like you, I respect you, but you're the kind of person I'd have to kill under other circumstances, so because you're my friend I'm going to hope "other circumstances" never happen. It's only that last romantic connection she can't make for a RenShep, which doesn't speak to respect one way or the other (I respect a lot of men, for example; they'd still all get an "I feel no such connection" from me if they tried for anything more than friendship).

[Xilizhra]

Then she can't love a Renegade. It's still similar to my point.

[jlb524]

snfonseka wrote...
 (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

Then where are the gay or lesbian characters?

[shepskisaac]

jlb524 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
 (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

Then where are the gay or lesbian characters?

Haha brilliant point!

[Ravensword]

All LIs should be available to all genders. There is no issue here except for the immature, insecure, and for the paltry few who genuinely believe that making LIs available to both a male and female Shepard would constitute some sort of change established character preferences.

[Chun Hei]

jlb524 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
 (at least ME team knows how the sexuality works in a normal world).

Then where are the gay or lesbian characters?

Well there is that one gay character who is saving the galaxy from the Reapers. Joker and Garrus keep staring at his ass...

[Quething]

Huh. I thought she was a lesbian.