25715 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

its possible. its also possible because in soviet union the war machine could be all encompassing and you couldn't just reject perfectly good soldiers, just because they had boobs. it happened temporarily in USA during WW2, but then kinda went back to regular. it stayed that way in USSR until collapse.

I moved to US shortly after collapse of USSR (long story) but judging by the news and shows and movies that came out of that region for a while... it got a little too Americanization happy (up to and including bastardizing English words for every day usage, despite existence of perfectly good Russian terms) and all that sexual repression that's been going on for decades?....yeah

as for the thing with female and male toys? if they expand their target demographic, they might actually sell more toys. why limit yourself to just boys or just girls, when you can catch both?

anyways... I think I'm getting a little too off topic happy.

here's to well written relationships in ME3.

[jlb524]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
No, boys get toy soldiers, toy diggers and toy building equipment.

Indoctrinating them into believing they have to do certain types of jobs.

Don't act like this is only happening to females.

Both males and females are targetted from birth to believe certain things.

You've completely missed the point of my posts.

I never said boys aren't 'indoctrinated' or that just girls are targeted.

I am saying specifically that girls are targeted with things relating more to being a wife/mother (i.e., growing up to fit into that specific heteronormative role is pushed more on them).

[JeffZero]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Well Deep Space Nine was the gayest of all the Star Treks (Julian and Garak, Julian and Miles, all Daxes, Intendant Kira, crossdressing Ferengi....etc!) My plan is to own all the episodes of Star Trek but currently my only complete collection is Deep Space Nine So umm relating to Mass Effect.... Nana Visitor, Nicole DeBoer or Terry Farrell for VA for the new female S/S LI?!

Oh makenzie, you're hitting me damn close to home. As a straight Niner who was hitting puberty during those last couple of seasons, I had crushes on all of them at one point or another.

I'd go with Nana though. A very striking voice. And she played one hell of a Bajoran. Plenty of emotion there.

[JeffZero]

@leah: Once again I thank you for giving me more perspective on Russia. Your tales are always welcome. If I can think of an on-topic story regarding the Irish in New York City I'll repay the debt someday. XD

[Quething]

Eh, I'm going to vote Terry Farrell for lesbian turian in ME3. Just because I want to hear how she'd sound with the voice flange thing going (I would know the term for that if I were sober, I swear).

[DiebytheSword]

I'm down for some Nana Visitor myself. I'd never begrudge an appearance by Trek cast alumni.

It would be voice flanging, very close

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 24 octobre 2011 - 02:55 .

[JeffZero]

Quething wrote...

Eh, I'm going to vote Terry Farrell for lesbian turian in ME3. Just because I want to hear how she'd sound with the voice flange thing going (I would know the term for that if I were sober, I swear).

Farrell also played a bisexual on DS9, thanks to having several lifetimes of memories stored within her. There was that episode where she rekindled a past love with a woman. TV Guide made the most of it, Fox News probably made the most of it... but at the end of the tabloid day, it was a very heartfelt approach to something that especially back in 1996 (I think that's when the episode aired) was rather taboo on television. It would have made a bigger splash if it weren't already resigned to the "oh, it's Star Trek, that's nerd stuff" category by many TV-goers.

I wince when I think about the field day a male Shepard/Kaidan (or similar) romance might do to the suits at places like Fox News. They'd have a ball if they caught word and didn't feel like the Mass Effect thing was old hat. Well whatever, let them have their shallow fun so long as my gay and bi friends get their fun too.

Heck, I fully intend to do a male Shepard/Kaidan romance if possible.

[JeffZero]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I'm down for some Nana Visitor myself. I'd never begrudge an appearance by Trek cast alumni.

It would be voice flanging, very close

Yeah! We already have Dorn, Sirtis, Schultz and several others. Share the love, I say.

Fight for it, even. Fight for the love, yes!

[Quething]

DiebytheSword wrote...
It would be voice flanging, very close

HAHA! I'm good.

@JeffZero: If you mean the one where her former lover shows up and wants to renew the relationship, I remember not being all that impressed by it, but it has been a long, long time since I saw that ep (or... any DS9 ep, for that matter).

The Trill have had a connection to queer issues from the start, though; the very first Trill in the series was a dude who dated Crusher, then got kakked and came back with a new female host and wanted to pick back up where they left off. Bev didn't go for it. And then there was that disastrous episode with Riker and the monogendered aliens... Admittedly both of those were some years before DS9 hit its stride.

Poor Trek. (And let's not talk about how they went from a Voyager cast that was less than half white and had two women carrying the show back to the straight Caucasian sausagefest of the original series. Not least because it'd be wildly off-topic... >.>) Though speaking of Voyager, did Russ do any ME voices, or is he just in Dragon Age?

Watch me make this on-topic: Trek is obviously one of the longest-standing and most popular franchises in sci-fi, in multiple media; it's got tie-in comics that sell better than actual comics (not that that's hard) and just slapping the name on a movie guarantees you a competitive opening weekend. Trek is also known almost more than anything for how pioneering it was, socially; openly tackling issues of race, class, and gender (okay, frequently badly, but they tried), long before it was considered safe, acceptable, or obvious to do so. It's long since lost its teeth, but back in the day, Trek had TV's first interracial kiss.* That was a huge f*cking deal.

And yet, again. This is one of the most successful sci-fi franchises in history. Not least, directly because of that. Because they were willing to push the envelope, make people think, and history has vindicated them.

BioWare, don't you want to be cool like Trek? Isn't making a franchise that massive and enduring, exactly what you're trying to do with Mass Effect? Just saying, pushing the envelope is not detrimental to that cause. (Not that m/m romance content is anywhere near the edge of the envelope at this point. But that's all the more reason not to be gun-shy about, say, Vega making the first move in hitting on the PC).

*mostly. It's a bit complicated. Call it as true as "asari are female."

Modifié par Quething, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:55 .

[Abispa]

slimgrin wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, I had a kitchen set, what does that make me?

Gay as all hell.

Really, I enjoy the romances, but it appears I don't take them near as seriously as some do. 

LIs are just accessories for our Shepards. That's MY position. You can't assume that the people on this thread are overly obsessed with Bioware LIs simply because that's pretty much what this thread is about. That would be like accusing DA2 critics in level design threads of doing nothing but rage about visiting the same cave all day.

[Quething]

Well, people do accuse people in level design threads of doing that...

[Maugrim]

JeffZero wrote...

Farrell also played a bisexual on DS9, thanks to having several lifetimes of memories stored within her. There was that episode where she rekindled a past love with a woman. TV Guide made the most of it, Fox News probably made the most of it... but at the end of the tabloid day, it was a very heartfelt approach to something that especially back in 1996 (I think that's when the episode aired) was rather taboo on television. It would have made a bigger splash if it weren't already resigned to the "oh, it's Star Trek, that's nerd stuff" category by many TV-goers.

I wince when I think about the field day a male Shepard/Kaidan (or similar) romance might do to the suits at places like Fox News. They'd have a ball if they caught word and didn't feel like the Mass Effect thing was old hat. Well whatever, let them have their shallow fun so long as my gay and bi friends get their fun too.

Heck, I fully intend to do a male Shepard/Kaidan romance if possible.

That episode was Rejoined and it aired in  Oct 30th 95(I knew the name but had to look up the date)  while ostensibly about the idea of Trill reassociation it was of course a commentrary on homosexuality along with pretty much any relationship that strays from the norm.  Plus it was just a good love story, Trek is at it's best when it does allegorical morality tales despite the occasional fanwank about just wanting the sci-fi bits.  My favorite quote from that episode was at the beginning when Kira (my favorite Trek character of all time) says

" I don't understand how two people who've fallen in love, and made a life together, can be forced to just... walk away from each other."  - Kira Nerys

This is what good sci-fi did back it 1995. Come on Bioware get with the times! Meanwhile I'll be in my bunk...

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Abispa]

I am a Niner, too! I love Nana Visitor myself. Gotta love any woman who looks like she can kick as while wearing ass-grabbing pants. Must be her years as a dancer. Also loved the fact that she was beating the hell out of security guards while she was pregnant.

I loved DS9 save for that DREADFUL last episode. All that great build up and THAT was the Sisko-Dukat showdown we got!?

Babylon 5 was great and the weak parts in the series I blamed on the yearly fight to keep the series going, especially when they crammed two seasons into one and THEN found out they could have the fifth season after all. I wished Crusade got a chance to establish itself and I still shudder about the dreadful Rangers pilot.

In my opinion the best series at delivering sci-fi with a satisfying ending was the remake of Battlestar Galactica. The epic coolness of the series is due in no small part to the fact that the ship had a Latino captain. Too bad the s/s stuff was put into a brief snippets in the TV movie and web episodes.

[Quething]

BSG lost me hard by the time (SPOILER!) Starbuck came back from the dead or whatever. Webisode-only Gayta was just salt in the wound. But Babylon 5. Now there was a show. I say to you, FTL thread, knowing you will understand: "I think I... loved Talia" was a revelation for tiny Quething.

[Carfax]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Yeah, that is silly, but I doubt it will happen.  The devs have confirmed all romances will be player initiated.

By the way, liking the opposite sex does not mean you are straight.  Bisexuality exists, and it's actually a lot more common than you think.  In fact, sexuality does not fit neatly into categories at all.  Maybe you've heard of that Kinsey guy...

Otherwise I agree with the rest of the stuff you said.

I'm familar with Kinsey, enough to know that a lot of his work was eventually discredited.  It's from him that the gays are 10% of the population quote came from, among other things....which was also discredited.

I wish people would stop bringing up the work of Alfred Kinsey, because as I said, his work was debunked due to the overwhelming bias and outright fabrications that he made during his supposed research.

[Ravensword]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, I had a kitchen set, what does that make me?

Pffft. A kitchen set.

I cook better than 95% of the girls I know (No, I'm not a chef). And you know what? They love it. Everyone becomes much friendlier and more suggestible after a good meal. It's simple biology.

Ah, surpassing gender roles and date rape all in one statement.

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

BSG lost me hard by the time (SPOILER!) Starbuck came back from the dead or whatever. Webisode-only Gayta was just salt in the wound. But Babylon 5. Now there was a show. I say to you, FTL thread, knowing you will understand: "I think I... loved Talia" was a revelation for tiny Quething.

I thought the whole "Angel of Death" thing pretty much fit into the series as it played out, though I admit I spent weeks wondering where the hell they were going with it.

I wish Tali didn't leave B5 before her romance with Ivanova really got going, but given the fact that the producers couldn't promise her the show would still be around week to week it was understandable. I remember that their lesbian romance came out around the same time as the "lesbian" Trill episode of DS9 and quite a few arguments started in sci-fi conventions on which series handled the subject better.

Nothing says irony more than a two guys dressed like a Vulcan and a Klingon arguing before a panel about whether or not gay characters and black people playing humaniod aliens push believability to the breaking point.

Modifié par Abispa, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Maugrim]

 

Carfax wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Yeah, that is silly, but I doubt it will happen.  The devs have confirmed all romances will be player initiated.

By the way, liking the opposite sex does not mean you are straight.  Bisexuality exists, and it's actually a lot more common than you think.  In fact, sexuality does not fit neatly into categories at all.  Maybe you've heard of that Kinsey guy...

Otherwise I agree with the rest of the stuff you said.

I'm familar with Kinsey, enough to know that a lot of his work was eventually discredited.  It's from him that the gays are 10% of the population quote came from, among other things....which was also discredited.

I wish people would stop bringing up the work of Alfred Kinsey, because as I said, his work was debunked due to the overwhelming bias and outright fabrications that he made during his supposed research.

Not that familiar apparently.   I'd hardly pass myself off as an expert like we've seen you repeatedly try and even I know that there were always issues with his methodology but you  also know what? Once they were corrected for there was NO significant difference in the results.  Last paragraph of that section.  Sorry for all basic uses Kinsey findings work just fine.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:33 .

[Siansonea]

Abispa wrote...

*snip*
Nothing says irony more than a two guys dressed like a Vulcan and a Klingon arguing before a panel about whether or not gay characters and black people playing humaniod aliens push believability to the breaking point.

I have chortled.

[Quething]

Abispa wrote...

I thought the whole "Angel of Death" thing pretty much fit into the series as it played out, though I admit I spent weeks wondering where the hell they were going with it.

It wasn't so much the plotlines, per se, though the plot did fall in quality after the first season or so IMO. It was more that Laura Airlock Roslin got reduced to a sob story bit part, and Starbuck's whole story prior to her death was babymaking and cheating on her husband, and the show repeatedly failed Bechdel's to a pretty spectacular degree considering how many good female characters they started out with. I've just reached a point in my life where I really don't care much about the manly angst and manly adventures of manly men, and as BSG became mostly about that I stopped caring about it too.

I think I'm the only queer person in the world who actually mostly liked Razor, though.

(One thing I will say for the ME fanbase, homophobic Talimancers notwithstanding: I have never heard anyone here ever say "Why does X female character have to be a lesbian? Can't a character be a strong woman without being a lesbian?" Which is still, to this day, the most facepalmy objection to revealing a character as queer that I have ever heard.)

[Carfax]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Not that familiar apparently.   I'd hardly pass myself off as an expert like we've seen you repeatedly try and even I know that there were always issues with his methodology but you  also know what? Once they were corrected for there was NO significant difference in the results.  Last paragraph of that section.  Sorry for all basic uses Kinsey findings work just fine.

Right, so the same Kinsey Institute responsible for the original junk Science research, attempted to a "correction" of all the statistical anomalies and came up with more or less the same figures

Well you can believe whatever you want of course.. Since you're gay yourself, I suppose Alfred Kinsey's fairy tale research is more palatable to you than the truth..

From more reliable research that I've read, it appears that gays and bisexuals comprise approximately 4% of the population, and not 10% like in Kinsey's research.  This 4% figure has manifested itself in numerous statistical studies, including even exit political polls, and similar studies in other nations.

Something else, the percentage of those that are exclusively homosexual, is typically 1% or less.  Many gays apparently have bisexual leanings, just moreso towards the same sex than opposite sex.

There was once a time in my life when I researched homosexuality quite thoroughly, since I was raised in a very anti-homosexual environment, and I wanted to understand why it exists..  So I'm certain I've read far more on this subject than yourself, and most others on this forum.

Believe whatever you want to though.. 

[JeffZero]

Oh wow, the conversation kept going. Haha, whoops.

OK, I'm on the PS3 browser right now so this is going to be tough but I'll try to respond to all the relevant-to-my-interests discussion. It's going to take a while though. I'll start with...

[quote]Quething wrote...
@JeffZero: If you mean the one where her former lover shows up and wants to renew the relationship, I remember not being all that impressed by it, but it has been a long, long time since I saw that ep (or... any DS9 ep, for that matter).[/quote]

I quite enjoyed it, myself. I thought it was pretty tasteful with the obvious material it was going for -- a statement on homosexuality and bisexuality and their undertones in the 24th Century. I loved how there wasn't a moment wasted on misogynistic remarks. Everyone, even Julian "Sometimes A Bit Wet Behind The Ears" Bashir, was pretty supportive. The real tension was the taboo of whether or not Jadzia should act on her rekindled feelings. Very tasteful.

[quote]The Trill have had a connection to queer issues from the start, though; the very first Trill in the series was a dude who dated Crusher, then got kakked and came back with a new female host and wanted to pick back up where they left off. Bev didn't go for it. And then there was that disastrous episode with Riker and the monogendered aliens... Admittedly both of those were some years before DS9 hit its stride.[/quote]

Heh, I'm not too big on most of TNG's romance-of-the-week episodes. Generally, I'm not too big on romance-of-the-week stories at all. A few of them were surprisingly good though, and several of DS9's actually touched me. Neither of these were it though.

The original Trill version (straight down to the difference in appearance) probably wouldn't have sold me on them had I not been roughly five years old when that episode aired. By the time I was forming complex opinions on Trek beyond "I like Geordi's VISOR and I think the Romulans are scary" DS9 was entering its stride.

Retospectively though, oi, definitely prefer the Trill in DS9. And don't get me started on TNG's early Ferengi, but thankfully the folks who were left at TNG's helm eventually owned up to the fact that they were dreadful. LOL.

[quote]Poor Trek. (And let's not talk about how they went from a Voyager cast that was less than half white and had two women carrying the show back to the straight Caucasian sausagefest of the original series. Not least because it'd be wildly off-topic... >.>) Though speaking of Voyager, did Russ do any ME voices, or is he just in Dragon Age?[/quote]

Yeah, say what you will about Voyager but the carrying-the-show done by Mulgrew and Ryan was a very powerful thing indeed. Although I'd contest that Robert Picardo had equal weight in that regard. By the time Voyager was in its sixth and seventh seasons, Paramount was clearly well-aware that these three were drawing in the numbers. The show really became theirs with Paris and Torres holding the fort with their family business, Tuvok sometimes getting half an episode and everyone else getting glorified extra status.

But regardless, it was glorious that Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan were so important. Hell, the old joke that Ryan was there for T&A was undeniably true at first but her character really did blossom surprisingly well, I thought.

As for Enterprise's cast... gotta love Paramount's "we're getting back to the heart of the franchise" crap they spewed out as an explanation. Uh-huh.

[quote]Watch me make this on-topic: Trek is obviously one of the longest-standing and most popular franchises in sci-fi, in multiple media; it's got tie-in comics that sell better than actual comics (not that that's hard) and just slapping the name on a movie guarantees you a competitive opening weekend. Trek is also known almost more than anything for how pioneering it was, socially; openly tackling issues of race, class, and gender (okay, frequently badly, but they tried), long before it was considered safe, acceptable, or obvious to do so. It's long since lost its teeth, but back in the day, Trek had TV's first interracial kiss.* That was a huge f*cking deal.

And yet, again. This is one of the most successful sci-fi franchises in history. Not least, directly because of that. Because they were willing to push the envelope, make people think, and history has vindicated them.

BioWare, don't you want to be cool like Trek? Isn't making a franchise that massive and enduring, exactly what you're trying to do with Mass Effect? Just saying, pushing the envelope is not detrimental to that cause. (Not that m/m romance content is anywhere near the edge of the envelope at this point. But that's all the more reason not to be gun-shy about, say, Vega making the first move in hitting on the PC).[/quote]

*smirk* Awesome post.

Sadly, Trek did fall by the financial wayside for some time toward the end of the Rick Berman era. But Abrams' new flick (and its impending sequels) have proven the franchise really does have perpetual staying power. Lovely, that.

BioWare ought to push that envelope indeed.
[/quote]

[JeffZero]

makenzieshepard wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Farrell also played a bisexual on DS9, thanks to having several lifetimes of memories stored within her. There was that episode where she rekindled a past love with a woman. TV Guide made the most of it, Fox News probably made the most of it... but at the end of the tabloid day, it was a very heartfelt approach to something that especially back in 1996 (I think that's when the episode aired) was rather taboo on television. It would have made a bigger splash if it weren't already resigned to the "oh, it's Star Trek, that's nerd stuff" category by many TV-goers.

I wince when I think about the field day a male Shepard/Kaidan (or similar) romance might do to the suits at places like Fox News. They'd have a ball if they caught word and didn't feel like the Mass Effect thing was old hat. Well whatever, let them have their shallow fun so long as my gay and bi friends get their fun too.

Heck, I fully intend to do a male Shepard/Kaidan romance if possible.

That episode was Rejoined and it aired in  Oct 30th 95(I knew the name but had to look up the date)  while ostensibly about the idea of Trill reassociation it was of course a commentrary on homosexuality along with pretty much any relationship that strays from the norm.  Plus it was just a good love story, Trek is at it's best when it does allegorical morality tales despite the occasional fanwank about just wanting the sci-fi bits.  My favorite quote from that episode was at the beginning when Kira (my favorite Trek character of all time) says

" I don't understand how two people who've fallen in love, and made a life together, can be forced to just... walk away from each other."  - Kira Nerys

This is what good sci-fi did back it 1995. Come on Bioware get with the times! Meanwhile I'll be in my bunk...

Man, such a good quote. Shows like this really broke the mould back then. When I was younger I watched them because I simply thought they were cool (and as DS9's second half continued, I fell in love with the serialized storytelling approach even as a kid) but when I watch them again as a young adult I realize that they're rare gems in many ways.

If people were more inclined to listen to the writer's wisdom in Kira's quote the world would be the better place Roddenberry desired, heh.

[JeffZero]

Abispa wrote...

I am a Niner, too! I love Nana Visitor myself. Gotta love any woman who looks like she can kick as while wearing ass-grabbing pants. Must be her years as a dancer. Also loved the fact that she was beating the hell out of security guards while she was pregnant.

Heck yes. Some folks take issue to the thought that Kira would endanger the child like that but dammit, two of her best friends were just killed. She was going to fight.

I loved DS9 save for that DREADFUL last episode. All that great build up and THAT was the Sisko-Dukat showdown we got!?

"What You Leave Behind" actually remains my favorite series finale to this day, not because it was perfect (the Sisko-Dukat showdown being the most glaringly obvious flawed piece) but because it was close enough for me. I have never found any television series to end on a full-on ten-out-of-ten note and I understand why: it's impossible for the writers to bookend a show precisely as the audience wants. Especially because the audience is always going to be diverse.

Despite the lackluster Fire Caves sequence (and I will readily admit, I even found some goodness in that; Kai Winn's end, Dukat's little monologue and Sisko's self-sacrifice come to mind) everything else was top-class for me. That and, well, I consider the final ten hours or so to be the finale, not just WYLB. Too few serialized shows start wrapping things up midway through their final season. *glares at BSG* It gave damn near everyone plenty of closure.

Plus I'm a sucker for Braveheart stints. Damar's characterization and Kira's full-circle rebellious aspect (zomg, she was running with the Cardies in the finale! Amazing!) really get me.

Babylon 5 was great and the weak parts in the series I blamed on the yearly fight to keep the series going, especially when they crammed two seasons into one and THEN found out they could have the fifth season after all. I wished Crusade got a chance to establish itself and I still shudder about the dreadful Rangers pilot.

Babylon 5's issues were exactly as you called them, I think. But overall, amazing show. I recently got to meet Claudia Christian. Delightful woman. I can't wait to hear her voice in Skyrim. She works for Colonel Tigh's VA, Michael Hogan. Hah!

In my opinion the best series at delivering sci-fi with a satisfying ending was the remake of Battlestar Galactica. The epic coolness of the series is due in no small part to the fact that the ship had a Latino captain. Too bad the s/s stuff was put into a brief snippets in the TV movie and web episodes.

I don't feel like BSG's finale is nearly as bad as many other vocal dissidents on the internet but I definitely can't put it on-par with, ironically, your much-maligned DS9 finale.

The two Ron D. Moore shows were different in many ways but rather similar in others. While I will always appreciate BSG's darker approach to DS9's material (yeah, I realize it's a remake of the original BSG, but seriously, there's so much DS9 in there since much of the writing staff is the same) I think in the end I like DS9's cast more.

Folks like Adama are terrific but I can't get enough Sisko, Kira, Odo, Bashir, O'Brien, Dax, Worf, Quark, ...Dax... and everyone else involved in DS9. The edge of realism BSG's tone provides is refreshing but there aren't as many characters I'm drawn toward.