25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Carfax]

slimgrin wrote...

That's weak writing, and weak characterisation.

This.  I'm not against the inclusion of S/S romances, but if Bioware retcons Ashley, Kaidan, Jacob, Miranda, Tali etc by making them S/S romanceable, then I will be ticked off.

Character integrity and continuity are important aspects of making strong, believable characters.

If they introduce S/S romances in ME3, it should be with new characters, or with characters that have already been established as bisexual.  Vega I'm already certain will be a bisexual love interest, and I have no problem with this as he's a new character.

Jack would be the only previous character that would qualify for S/S romance in ME3, based on her dialogue that indicated she had previously been with women....although it seems she has a preference for men over women.

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...

Character integrity and continuity are important aspects of making strong, believable characters.

And when you can point us to a scene in which Ash/Kaidan/Jacob/Miranda/Tali turn down advances from same-sex or talk/declare how are they not into same-sex, I will agree with you. Good luck finding such scenes.

[slimgrin]

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 Until Bioware has a character say "I'm straight!" Bioware can reveal something new about a character's sexuality without it being a retcon.

That's weak writing, and weak characterisation.

That means 50% of classic literature is weak writing & characterization since characters reveal new information about themselves all the time and yes, very often the reveal of that information wasn't really initiallly planned by an author. In the end, it doesn't matter how characters get created. If the writing is good regarding s/s romances with old characters in ME3, it will always be good. External & meta motives, factors and the realms of writing/developement process don't matter. The end material and quality of it does.

Oh bloody hell, are you kidding me? If anything frustrates me about the gay community on BSN, it's their eager willingess to accept whatever bioware tosses their way. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Siansonea]

I urge everyone to review the OP.

[slimgrin]

Siansonea II wrote...

I urge everyone to review the OP.

It seems my posts are out of place since any criticism of the topic isn't allowed.

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Chromie]

slimgrin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 Until Bioware has a character say "I'm straight!" Bioware can reveal something new about a character's sexuality without it being a retcon.

That's weak writing, and weak characterisation.

That means 50% of classic literature is weak writing & characterization since characters reveal new information about themselves all the time and yes, very often the reveal of that information wasn't really initiallly planned by an author. In the end, it doesn't matter how characters get created. If the writing is good regarding s/s romances with old characters in ME3, it will always be good. External & meta motives, factors and the realms of writing/developement process don't matter. The end material and quality of it does.

Oh bloody hell, are you kidding me? If anything frustrates me about the gay community on BSN, it's their eager willingess to accept whatever bioware tosses their way. 

Yup.

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

Oh bloody hell, are you kidding me? If anything frustrates me about the gay community on BSN, it's their eager willingess to accept whatever bioware tosses their way.

And where did I say that? I talked about quality writing and said if the writing's good, then how it came/background motives don't matter. IDK but that sounds rather reasonable to me

Plus I don't accept 'whatever BioWare tosses my way'. In case you didn't notice, I have a specific wish regarding s/s displayed in my signature.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:10 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Carfax wrote...

I'm not against the inclusion of S/S romances, but if Bioware retcons Ashley, Kaidan, Jacob, Miranda, Tali etc by making them S/S romanceable, then I will be ticked off.

...

Jack would be the only previous character that would qualify for S/S romance in ME3, based on her dialogue that indicated she had previously been with women....although it seems she has a preference for men over women.

I'm so sick of this argument... "Don't 'retcon' anyone! That's ****** me off! Except for Jack. She was coerced into bed by a woman she once trusted, so she's obviously bisexual even though she rejects femShep."

Jack is the only one who actually rejects same-sex Shepard, and even then I'd be okay with her coming back as bisexual, because her rejection ("I'm not a 'girl's club' kind of person") can be interpreted in different ways. All the other romances, though, do not imply that they are heterosexual, except in that same-sex Shepard is not allowed to hit on them. Characters like Garrus, Jacob and Miranda, who do not show an interest in Shepard until Shepard shows an interest in them, can absolutely come back in ME3 as bisexual, because same-sex Shepard can finally hit on them and they can say, "Wow, you should have said something sooner!"

That's not "lazy writing." In fact, if anything, not letting same-sex Shepard hit on same-sex characters so that they can say, "Sorry, I'm not interested" is what's lazy. If that had been an option, and certain love-interests were established as straight and not assumed straight, I could live with it. But that's not what happened. Instead, everyone assumes that because male Shepard can't hit on Garrus the way female Shepard can, Garrus is straight. No. Until Garrus actually rejects male Shepard, it's not a "retcon" to have Garrus respond positively to sexual advances from manShep in ME3.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

And when you can point us to a scene in which Ash/Kaidan/Jacob/Miranda/Tali turn down advances from same-sex or talk/declare how are they not into same-sex, I will agree with you. Good luck finding such scenes.

If Ashley, Kaidan etc were bisexual, the Mass Effect writers would have indicated it already in their romance dialogues.  However, neither of these characters were available for S/S romances in the previous games.

Now they could go down the DA2 path and make all the characters contextually bi (and retconning some like Anders), but from the backlash it created, I doubt the Mass Effect team would repeat the same mistake....and it was a mistake.

Contextual bisexuality in the characters was a cheap half assed method that ended up pleasing very few people while angering many.

Retconning is even worse however..  

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

Sexuality should be tightly woven with the character's history and personality. Bioware has completely ignored this aspect so anyone can be anything. That is the problem.

Not necessarily.

That's just your opinion for whatever reason.

[Siansonea]

From the original post, for those too lazy to look it up themselves:


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And another tip: If you find yourself using the word "retcon", which is a poorly-understood portmanteau of the phrase "retroactive continuity", you're probably veering off-topic. In fact you're probably careening off-topic. Those are discussions for other threads, so please discuss such topics elsewhere.

♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡

Modifié par Siansonea II, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:22 .

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Sexuality should be tightly woven with the character's history and personality. Bioware has completely ignored this aspect so anyone can be anything. That is the problem.

Not necessarily.

That's just your opinion for whatever reason.

On this site, counter opinions on the matter are not allowed.

So you win by default.

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...


If Ashley, Kaidan etc were bisexual, the Mass Effect writers would have indicated it already in their romance dialogues.  However, neither of these characters were available for S/S romances in the previous games.

Neither is Zaeed available for romance. Does it mean he's asexual? Not to mention, you talked like 30 minutes with these character all together. You think you already know their eentire lifestory? Plus, what Kaidan & Ashley say and act on Horizon towards same-sex Shep can clearly mean they are into him/her.

Carfax wrote...

Now they could go down the DA2 path and make all the characters contextually bi (and retconning some like Anders), but from the backlash it created, I doubt the Mass Effect team would repeat the same mistake....and it was a mistake.

It wasn't. It was just a bunch of insecure people (most straight guys) whining about the fact someone they thought was straight is actually bi. It's the same as in real life, some straight people very much don't want their closed friends to be bi. Plus there wasn't really any big backlash. You're overestimating the number of bigots. Most straight people are secure enough about themselves not to be bothered if their friends and/or virtual companions in a game turn out to be not exactly what they thought they were.

Carfax wrote...
Retconning is even worse however..  

In order to retcon something it needs to be established first. Nice try, but repeating the word retcon won't make it true in this case.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:29 .

[Carfax]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I'm so sick of this argument... "Don't 'retcon' anyone! That's ****** me off! Except for Jack. She was coerced into bed by a woman she once trusted, so she's obviously bisexual even though she rejects femShep."

Jack said she has had boyfriends and girlfriends throughout her life, so.....

All the other romances, though, do not imply that they are heterosexual, except in that same-sex Shepard is not allowed to hit on them. Characters like Garrus, Jacob and Miranda, who do not show an interest in Shepard until Shepard shows an interest in them, can absolutely come back in ME3 as bisexual, because same-sex Shepard can finally hit on them and they can say, "Wow, you should have said something sooner!"

Really, all of this is just meaningless speculation, because so much depends on the will of the writers.  If the writer so chooses, he or she can implement anything they wish and probably justify it, even though it will anger many.

The point though, is that while the sexuality of the ME and ME2 characters was never explicitly stated, it was implied, because while characters like Miranda for instance had romance dialogue options for MaleShep, she had none whatsoever for FemShep.....much like Thane had no romance dialogues with MaleShep.

Thats an intentional decision by the writer, and it implies these characters are not bisexual and are heterosexual.

Can they go back and change things with new dialogue options?  Yes, but it affects character integrity and continuity...

That's not "lazy writing." In fact, if anything, not letting same-sex Shepard hit on same-sex characters so that they can say, "Sorry, I'm not interested" is what's lazy. If that had been an option, and certain love-interests were established as straight and not assumed straight, I could live with it. But that's not what happened. Instead, everyone assumes that because male Shepard can't hit on Garrus the way female Shepard can, Garrus is straight. No. Until Garrus actually rejects male Shepard, it's not a "retcon" to have Garrus respond positively to sexual advances from manShep in ME3.

You people need to get it in your head that the Mass Effect series isn't a dating simulation.   You can't expect the ME writers to write dialogue for every "potential" romantic interest

Is MaleShep going to hit on every romanceable male character asking them if they're into sausage?  Come on now, thats just ridiculous.

[Siansonea]

What part of "enough of the retconning argument" was not clear?

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

On this site, counter opinions on the matter are not allowed.

So you win by default.

Well, is it your opinion that the same standards must hold for heterosexual characters?

That their sexuality must always be 'tightly woven' into their story?

Because if it is, then most of BW's hetero characters will fail this measure and I'd bet most characters in any game fail as well.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:44 .

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...

Is MaleShep going to hit on every romanceable male character asking them if they're into sausage?  Come on now, thats just ridiculous.

Let's see, ManShep can hit on 90% of his female squadmates. Hell yeah should be able to do the same with his male squadmates.

[jeweledleah]

no matter what happens in ME3, if they use ****ty horizon dialog as an indication of long standing "I never stopped loving you" on un-romanced Shepards of either gender and springboard the new relationships in ME3 from that? I will rage. same sex, other sex - its a freaking character derailment. why? becasue both Ashley and Kaidan as we saw them in ME1 are the kinds of characters that deal with the past, accept it and then move on. yes, even Ashley, despite the chip on her shoulder (she doesn't constantly whine about her grandfather being unfairly treated, she doesn't keep complaining about her own unfair treatment, instead she does her best to BE the best and take what she deserves even if she has to work twice as hard as everyone else). romanced Kaidan in particular actually indicates that he HAS in fact attempted to move on. he (and so is Ashley) says "loved" not love, loved. PAST TENSE. and that's coming from VS who actually WAS in a romantic relationship with Shepard.

whatever they do, whatever they write,however they deal with it, please for the love of all that's holy do NOT pull another Tali. why? becasue not every Shepard treated them well. not every Shepard chatted with them and got friendly with them. having them be in love by default turns their characters from strong,mature, grounded individuals into Bella Swans.

passing attraction that was never developed or acted on - sure. relationship that starts fresh, after rebuilding the trust that was shaken (and for some - broken) by Horizon encounter? yes. even romanced shepards shouldn't just fall right back into relationship without clearing some air first. but using that **** of an encounter to write them being in luuurve with Shepard by default. please for the love of god no. I'll accept reapers being killed by a computer virus, before seeing this sort of writing as anything other then lazy peace of crap. I almost typed sorry, but I'm not.

P.S.  character being unavaialbe for relationship is not an indicator of their sexuality and I'm tired of that argument.  if anything its anindicator of their current lack of interest in a player character, regadless of how they swing.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:42 .

[DarkDragon777]

Ringo12 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 Until Bioware has a character say "I'm straight!" Bioware can reveal something new about a character's sexuality without it being a retcon.

That's weak writing, and weak characterisation.

That means 50% of classic literature is weak writing & characterization since characters reveal new information about themselves all the time and yes, very often the reveal of that information wasn't really initiallly planned by an author. In the end, it doesn't matter how characters get created. If the writing is good regarding s/s romances with old characters in ME3, it will always be good. External & meta motives, factors and the realms of writing/developement process don't matter. The end material and quality of it does.

Oh bloody hell, are you kidding me? If anything frustrates me about the gay community on BSN, it's their eager willingess to accept whatever bioware tosses their way. 

Yup.

Yup.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

On this site, counter opinions on the matter are not allowed.

So you win by default.

Well, is it your opinion that the same standards must hold for heterosexual characters?

That their sexuality must always be 'tightly woven' into their story?

Because if it is, then most of BW's hetero characters will fail this measure and I'd bet most characters in any game.

The problem is, this topic has become too sacred to criticize. I understand why Sian set the rules she did for her thread. There were too many ignorant ass h*les to conduct an intelligent discussion. I'm not one of them. My motives are seperate, and the site doesn't allow for that. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Siansonea]

Nyoka wrote...

I don't like how people who are against s/s relationships often reduce the whole romance to "buttsex", "sausage" and similar terms, like gay relationships are not fully human, just animal humping. I don't think I've read one time one person arguing against it by asking if Shepard is going to find someone interesting, instead of these crude, subhuman expressions.

I don't think people who do this have the emotional maturity to recognize ANY sort of depth to human relationships. For them, relationships ARE just sex. It's sad, but they're the ones who really suffer for it.

[KawaiiKatie]

Siansonea II wrote...

What part of "enough of the retconning argument" was not clear?

I was going to reply to some of the comments above, but you're right, even if I'm raging against the overuse of the "retcon" argument, I'm really just fueling the fire. I'm sorry, I'll stop.

IsaacShep wrote...

Let's see, ManShep can hit on 90% of his female squadmates. Hell yeah should be able to do the same with his male squadmates.

HA, THIS.

After all those random Asari and female NPCs who just WOULDN'T TAKE THE HINT, I don't care if there's only one male love-interest available for same-sex lovin', I still really hope that manShep can flirt with more men. Really, it's only fair!

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

On this site, counter opinions on the matter are not allowed.

So you win by default.

Well, is it your opinion that the same standards must hold for heterosexual characters?

That their sexuality must always be 'tightly woven' into their story?

Because if it is, then most of BW's hetero characters will fail this measure and I'd bet most characters in any game.

The problem is, this topic has become too sacred to criticize. I understand why Sian set the rules she did for her thread. There were too many ignorant ass h*les to conduct an intelligent discussion. I'm not one of them. My motives are seperate, and the site doesn't allow for that. 

My question has nothing to do with 'retconning' so answer away!

[DarkDragon777]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

What part of "enough of the retconning argument" was not clear?

I was going to reply to some of the comments above, but you're right, even if I'm raging against the overuse of the "retcon" argument, I'm really just fueling the fire. I'm sorry, I'll stop.

IsaacShep wrote...

Let's see, ManShep can hit on 90% of his female squadmates. Hell yeah should be able to do the same with his male squadmates.

HA, THIS.

After all those random Asari and female NPCs who just WOULDN'T TAKE THE HINT, I don't care if there's only one male love-interest available for same-sex lovin', I still really hope that manShep can flirt with more men. Really, it's only fair!

Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life<_<