25715 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...

*snip*

OK, but do you think after you turn down Ash/Kaidan in ME1 (as opposite-sex Shep of course) they just immediately ain't attracted to him/her anymore. If something's not realistic, it would be that. Moving on and not trying to pursue the relationship/flirting anymore is one thing, that's the grown adult acting. They heard from Shep 'NO', they ain't gonna try anymore. But it doesn't mean they don't feel anything to Shep anymore right after that. And frankly, I can perfectly see them having it even harder to move on after such an event like seeing Shep dying. Plus, in comparsion to Tali, they didn't had personal mission Shep could screw them over. On the contrary, they had a mission in which Shep saves them.

I ain't talking abotu super-big hidden unfullfiled love-drama. But would it really be bad if they admited they liked Shep from the beginning?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .

[Siansonea]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

On this site, counter opinions on the matter are not allowed.

So you win by default.

Well, is it your opinion that the same standards must hold for heterosexual characters?

That their sexuality must always be 'tightly woven' into their story?

Because if it is, then most of BW's hetero characters will fail this measure and I'd bet most characters in any game.

The problem is, this topic has become too sacred to criticize. I understand why Sian set the rules she did for her thread. There were too many ignorant ass h*les to conduct an intelligent discussion. I'm not one of them. My motives are seperate, and the site doesn't allow for that. 

The thing is, we've discussed this "retcon" thing to death in the previous incarnations of this thread, and each time the topic got so heated it got the thread closed. I don't think people really understand what a "retcon" is, and I certainly don't understand why this is the battleground for the Anti Retcon Brigade when so many other, MUCH more egregious examples of retroactive continuity have already occurred in ME2 and failed to cause any backlash on the same scale as this has. Why? Because it's not really about "retconning" at all—it's about preserving each person's sacred idea of a favorite character, which leaves no room for something as controversial as bisexuality. But if the character was "retconned" in some other, less controversial way, the response would be decidedly lukewarm. And we all know it. So let's stop pretending that this is really about "character continuity", because that's just misdirection, and I don't like misdirection in this thread. And I certainly don't like witnessing the hundredth cycle of an argument that was flawed from the very beginning. You want to discuss retcons? Create your own retcon threads to your hearts content. Maybe some of them will even stay open. Maybe some of them will even generate some actual new content. But I doubt it.

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

Neither is Zaeed available for romance. Does it mean he's asexual? Not to mention, you talked like 30 minutes with these character all together. You think you already know their eentire lifestory? .

You act as though these are real characters or something, with a mind and will of their own

Zaeed doesn't possess any sexuality, unless his WRITER chooses to imbue him with it.  And since the writer didn't choose to do so, then yes, he's in effect asexual and not engageable by any means.

Plus, what Kaidan & Ashley say and act on Horizon towards same-sex Shep can clearly mean they are into him/her

Really?  What did they say that makes you so confident of this?

It wasn't. It was just a bunch of insecure people (most straight guys) whining about the fact someone they thought was straight is actually bi. It's the same as in real life, some straight people very much don't want their closed friends to be bi. Plus there wasn't really any big backlash. You're overestimating the number of bigots. Most straight people are secure enough about themselves not to be bothered if their friends and/or virtual companions in a game turn out to be not exactly what they thought they were.

Those "straight guys" are the majority of the fanbase for these games.  Also, the number of bigots is unimportant.  The only thing that matters here is that there was a backlash that made DA2 the target of a great deal of criticism and ranting on many forums, and also forced Gaider to publically address the issue.

If Bioware has an ounce of sense, they will drop that romance model entirely for DA3, especially since DA2 wasn't well received..  Anyway, ME3 is being developed by a different team with a lot more common sense than the DA2 team, so I don't expect the same thing to be sure.

Carfax wrote...
In order to retcon something it needs to be established first. Nice try, but repeating the word retcon won't make it true in this case.

And like I said before, treating Mass Effect as though it's a dating sim that must appeal to your personal sexual tastes is just childish and self centered.

Ashley, Kaidan etc have not expressly stated that they are heterosexual, but why should they?  It's already implied in the writing that they are..

Do you, like KawaiiKatie expect the writers to include dialogue firmly establishing the sexuality of all the characters?

If so, thats just silly, because the romances are not a theme in the ME series.

[Athayniel]

Carfax wrote...

Really, all of this is just meaningless speculation, because so much depends on the will of the writers.  If the writer so chooses, he or she can implement anything they wish and probably justify it, even though it will anger many.

So it's not a question of character integrity now? You just don't want to see anyone angry?

The point though, is that while the sexuality of the ME and ME2 characters was never explicitly stated, it was implied, because while characters like Miranda for instance had romance dialogue options for MaleShep, she had none whatsoever for FemShep.....much like Thane had no romance dialogues with MaleShep.

Sorry, their heterosexuality wasn't 'implied' by the writers, it was 'assumed' by some of the readers. There is a great difference between the two. For my part I chose not to make such assumptions.

Thats an intentional decision by the writer, and it implies these characters are not bisexual and are heterosexual.

You really have to look up the definitions of 'implication' and 'assumption'.

Can they go back and change things with new dialogue options?  Yes, but it affects character integrity and continuity...

There is no effect on character integrity or continuity. There's an effect on your assumptions about them. But that's not a problem the writers have to deal with.

You people need to get it in your head that the Mass Effect series isn't a dating simulation.

Damn right it isn't. I hear those games have *really* complicated mechanics and more RPG elements than you can shake a stick at.

You can't expect the ME writers to write dialogue for every "potential" romantic interest

Is MaleShep going to hit on every romanceable male character asking them if they're into sausage?  Come on now, thats just ridiculous.

I would be willing to wait for a Mass Effect 3 that did. I'm a patient person.

[KawaiiKatie]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life<_<

Yes, it is!

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

Let's see, ManShep can hit on 90% of his female squadmates. Hell yeah should be able to do the same with his male squadmates.

You and I have already been down this road before.  The two are not equal, no matter what you say.

[The Uncanny]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life<_<

Yes, it is!

Perhaps we're supposed to go hide under rocks or something.

[Siansonea]

Carfax, you have been reported. From the OP:



And to quote Chris Priestly:


Please remember:
All romances in Mass Effect 3 (as with parts 1 and 2) are optional. If you do not enjoy romance options in games, please stay out of discussions where fans of such romances can discuss them. Mass Effect 3 also has same sex relationships. If you do not enjoy or approve of same sex relationships, please stay out of discussion on these topics. While we respect each person's personal beliefs, we do not allow insults, ridicule or hatred against people on these forums based on religion, politics, race, age or sexual preference. People breaking the Site Rules will be dealt with accordingly.

[KawaiiKatie]

The Uncanny wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life<_<

Yes, it is!

Perhaps we're supposed to go hide under rocks or something.

Like everything else in life, TV Tropes has the answer.

[slimgrin]

The Uncanny wrote...

Perhaps we're supposed to go hide under rocks or something.

Don't be silly. It's the means, not the end we disagree about.

[jeweledleah]

IsaacShep wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

*snip*

OK, but do you think after you turn down Ash/Kaidan in ME1 (as opposite-sex Shep of course) they just immediately ain't attracted to him/her anymore. If something's not realistic, it would be that. Moving on and not trying to pursue the relationship/flirting anymore is one thing, that's the grown adult acting. They heard from Shep 'NO', they ain't gonna try anymore. But it doesn't mean they don't feel anything to Shep anymore right after that. And frankly, I can perfectly see them having it even harder to move on after such an event like seeing Shep dying. Plus, in comparsion to Tali, they didn't had personal mission Shep could screw them over. On the contrary, they had a mission in which Shep saves them.

I ain't talking abotu super-big hidden unfullfiled love-drama. But would it really be bad if they admited they liked Shep from the beginning?

headdesks.  are you saying here that its HARDER for them to get over unrequited love, rather then requited one?  seriously?  plus you could be pretty rough with thim in dialogue in ME1.  as rough as with Tali.  further more - renegade responces on Horizon are very dismissive and patronizing.  lastly - saying that you fund someone atractive years ago, but put it aside is NOT the same as feeling the love, despite death, despite assumed betrayal.  even romanced Kaidan/Ash, who actualy bother to send Shepard a letter are very cautious.  they feel... something.  something you might be able to REBUILD, not just pickup where you left off.  unromanced ones didn't even go as far as sending the letter.  yeah, I'm just drowning in feeling of love here >_>

no.  just no. i don't know about you, but I'd rather no deal with another Anders.  (I'm not talking about ninjamances here, btw, but rather his "character development" as a whole)  I used to like Anders.

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...
You act as though these are real characters or something

Now look who's talking! Weren't you just talking how mad you will be if these virtual characters reveal they are bi?

Carfax wrote...
Really?  What did they say that makes you so confident of this?

Kaidan: "Thinking you were gone... Was like losing a limb!"
Ashley: "I thought you were gone... I... You were more than our Commander"

Carfax wrote...
Those "straight guys" are the majority of the fanbase for these games.

Yes and most straight guys are secure about themselves enough not to be bothered in a bit by it. Unlike you.

Carfax wrote...
If Bioware has an ounce of sense, they will drop that romance model entirely for DA3, especially since DA2 wasn't well received..  Anyway, ME3 is being developed by a different team with a lot more common sense than the DA2 team, so I don't expect the same thing to be sure.

If BioWare has an ounce of sense, they will not submit to bigots. I don't doubt they're smarter than that.

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Well yes, it's only fair. They're part of the society just as you are. I know it sucks for you to have to share dev attention, but get used to it. The 'golden days' of the industry catering to nothing but straight males are over. Women are here, gays are here. You''ll just have to accept the world doesn't revolve around you.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[ADLegend21]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life<_<

Yes, it is!

Seeing as there are gay people in all walks of life, they should be represented. You like being represented don't you DarkDragon?

[flemm]

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Oh yes, because it's only fair that gay people get representation in every aspect of life<_<

Wait, what? Oh, you're trolling (I hope).

[jeweledleah]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Aaand we're back to Anders who was obviously screwed by gay agenda. Woo hoo

don't read into my words what I haven't said.

him being
avaialble to male Hawke didn't screw him up. it barely dented him.  he
was enough of a flirt in DAA to have credibly written in.. something.

him changing writers and voice actors, the fact that any and all possible endings of Awakenings are completely
ignored, the fact thathis merge with justice used as an excuse for a
complete character rewrite...  he's no longer Anders.  he's someone who
looks like Anders with some of his memories.

concidering that original writers for both VS characters are no longer with ME team?  yeah.

[Carfax]

Athayniel wrote...

So it's not a question of character integrity now? You just don't want to see anyone angry?

It was pretty obvious I meant that disrupting character integrity can result in angry fans...  Not very complicated.

Sorry, their heterosexuality wasn't 'implied' by the writers, it was 'assumed' by some of the readers. There is a great difference between the two. For my part I chose not to make such assumptions.

Really?  So why would Miranda be romanceable by MaleShep, but not FemShep?  And why would Thane be romanceable by FemShep, but not DudeShep?

Is there any purpose behind this, or is it just probability? 

You really have to look up the definitions of 'implication' and 'assumption'.

Somehow I get the feeling that "implied" to you would mean nothing less than an outright statement by one of the characters that they're straight or bisexual.

There is no effect on character integrity or continuity. There's an effect on your assumptions about them. But that's not a problem the writers have to deal with.

Just like Gaider never had to deal with the fiasco that was Anders?

I would be willing to wait for a Mass Effect 3 that did. I'm a patient person.

I hope you wait a very long time..

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...

*snip*

Great, I'm sticking with my opinion and what I want

[Xilizhra]

Just like Gaider never had to deal with the fiasco that was Anders?

Those who made the fiasco are irrelevant and unworthy of their opinions being realized.

[slimgrin]

The whole point is continuity, and whether or not one thinks it's tied closely to character. I think it is, which is why I disagree with Bioware's liberal approach. For the record, I've always supported a gay character in Mass Effect...a GAY character, not a bisexual one. Just my take.