25715 réponses à ce sujet

[FoxHound109]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

<----- Humor.


<----- Your head.

too close

Well played sir, well played!

[DarkDragon777]

FoxHound109 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I love how you're just proving my point.

<----- Humor.


<----- Your head.

Oh You. For all your petty attempts to appear to be clever, you don't even have the brains to understand the point I was getting at. You told me to deal with all the gay propaganda in schools and the media, and basically admitted that it happens. I don't mean that gays are going to physically dominate the world, but all of this foolishness is going to have affects. Not as if someone as short-sighted as you would understand.

[Youknow]

jlb524 wrote...


Oh, just like every mother thinks their kids are the most beautiful children in the world, most ME players that create a Shepard think theirs is hawt.

It's not about the player thinking their Shepard is attractive but the game itself.  That's the point.  Hey, you're too ugly to romance Miranda...too bad!

Sure, but on the flip side, you could intentionally make an ugly one and the game thinks it is attractive. Which is tough to determine that. That's the problem. It would literally be based off of what the creators think is attractive, which doesn't make any sense as people have wildly different interpretations of what's hot or not.

Who cares about 'resources'?  We're talking about 'realism' here!

Resources aren't realistic? I'm not sure I follow you...

That's how they usually work, though.  Regardless if they are straight or bisexual.  Liara made the first move in ME1 and some people freaked so they changed that in ME2.

I know that. But I hate how they changed it like that. I mean, I liked how Liara was forward like that. Even if I did think she was kind of creepy and didn't romance her because of it. I liked how that could even happen. 

Modifié par Youknow, 31 octobre 2011 - 01:01 .

[shepskisaac]

Ahh whatever

Modifié par IsaacShep, 31 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .

[Dhiro]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I love how you're just proving my point.

<----- Humor.


<----- Your head.

Oh You. For all your petty attempts to appear to be clever, you don't even have the brains to understand the point I was getting at. You told me to deal with all the gay propaganda in schools and the media, and basically admitted that it happens. I don't mean that gays are going to physically dominate the world, but all of this foolishness is going to have affects. Not as if someone as short-sighted as you would understand.

I hope so, yes.

[Athayniel]

Youknow wrote...

Well too be fair, there isn't really an "attractiveness" stat in Mass Effect, which is why they don't have things like "you're too ugly to date," etc. I'd be up for it I guess, but that seems like far too much effort for something so minor in the game. If it were a dating sim? Sure, but an Action/RPG? Not really.

You folks sling around the term dating sim as if that was somehow meaningful to the discussion at hand, as if a dating sim didn't have a very precise and real definition as a genre. A definition which Mass Effect fails spectacularly at even approaching. But what I find most interesting is not that romances being available is what makes Mass Effect a "dating sim" but that s/s relationships with LIs who were previously available for o/s romances does. It's baffling to me.

Also, you don't have to be a dating sim to have an 'attractiveness' stat. NWN would have the NPCs shoot down your character's attempts at flirting if their charisma was below 11 or so. Some RPGs even manage to inject species in. Being a dorf makes it really hard to romance elf girls.

My problem is that having Sheperd be able to make people bisexual reeks of more of that god-status Sheperd has in Mass Effect already. And I hate that in games. I like feeling "human." What we have now in the world with everyone bisexual Sheperd wants it so Sheperd gets it. I don't know, but it's not really a RPG so much as it is a dating Sim at that point. And there are enough sims for all sexualities to where I can go play those instead if I want a large variety of personalities to choose from for my sexuality.

Here's another assumption made that I don't really understand. That a love interest available to both genders of protagonist is 'bisexual'. That conclusion does not follow from the premise. There is nothing to stop BW from making Tali a lesbian in a game with a femShep and heterosexual in a game with a dudeShep. Both possibilities are entirely consistent.

You don't want want everyone to be Shepard-sexual because you claim it isn't realistic. But every woman who looks at manShep wanting to get in his pants is somehow okay.

Modifié par Athayniel, 31 octobre 2011 - 01:18 .

[FoxHound109]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I love how you're just proving my point.

<----- Humor.


<----- Your head.

Oh You. For all your petty attempts to appear to be clever, you don't even have the brains to understand the point I was getting at. You told me to deal with all the gay propaganda in schools and the media, and basically admitted that it happens. I don't mean that gays are going to physically dominate the world, but all of this foolishness is going to have affects. Not as if someone as short-sighted as you would understand.

I'm seriously laughing out loud right now like you can't image. Because God knows that an animated image of a fictional character portraying a well known meme is clearly an admittence of anything other than sarcasm or a joke. While you're at it, I suggest you start barracading all your Home Depots because since we're taking .gifs literally that means that my lesbian army will be upon your doorstep in no time. Probably to clean up your town and do some DIY home repairs. OH THE HORROR!

I'll be sure to add a footnote to every .gif I post from now on so that people "as short-sighted as you" you understand how humor functions. Oh, sweet, sweet irony, you are a devilish mistress!

[Youknow]

Nyoka wrote...


So DA2 is not an RPG.

Everyone isn't bisexual in DA2. You have party members that are just straight, and just plain not interested in you. When you said everyone S/S, I thought you were referring to quite literally, everyone. 

No, that's not right. The conversations in the romances involve a lot more than that.

 

So? Conversations with a person are not romance. 

So you want to flirt with all the guys and them romance Ashley. I would support that, actually. I think the game should encourage a little personality consistency overall (I see red and blue lines as bonus that you earn rather than normal lines that you lose), but the romances and the big choices should be entirely up to you.

Or even flirt around with the girls and then date a guy for that matter.

[jlb524]

Youknow wrote...
Sure, but on the flip side, you could intentionally make an ugly one and the game thinks it is attractive. Which is tough to determine that. That's the problem. It would literally be based off of what the creators think is attractive, which doesn't make any sense as people have wildly different interpretations of what's hot or not.

There will still be some attraction measure which is 'realistic'.  It might not be perfect, but it's still there and is still better than nothing...a step in the right direction towards 'realism'.  It would depend on what character X finds attractive and the devs would decide that.

Youknow wrote...
Resources aren't realistic? I'm not sure I follow you...

Well, you were the one arguing that these games need to be 'realistic' so the all-bisexual option is bad.  Some have said that it's a better use of resources as it adds more options for everyone.  You keep bringing up the 'realism' point.  I offered a counter based on attractiveness and now all of a sudden, realism can be tossed aside for consideration of resources.

Youknow wrote...
I know that. But I hate how they changed it like that. I mean, I liked how Liara was forward like that. Even if I did think she was kind of creepy and didn't romance her because of it. I liked how that could even happen. 

So you liked it but thought it was creepy?  I don't really follow.

Modifié par jlb524, 31 octobre 2011 - 01:18 .

[Youknow]

Athayniel wrote...

Youknow wrote...

Well too be fair, there isn't really an "attractiveness" stat in Mass Effect, which is why they don't have things like "you're too ugly to date," etc. I'd be up for it I guess, but that seems like far too much effort for something so minor in the game. If it were a dating sim? Sure, but an Action/RPG? Not really.

You folks sling around the word dating sim as if that was somehow meaningful, as if a dating sim didn't have a very precise and real definition as a genre. A definition which Mass Effect fails spectacularly at even approaching. But what I find most interesting is not that romances being available is what makes Mass Effect a "dating sim" but that s/s relationships with LIs who were previously available for o/s romances. It's baffling to me.

Also, you don't have to be a dating sim to have an 'attractiveness' stat. NWN would have the NPCs shoot down your character's attempts at flirting if their charisma was below 11 or so. Some RPGs even manage to inject species in. Being a dorf makes it really hard to romance elf girls.

My problem is that having Sheperd be able to make people bisexual reeks of more of that god-status Sheperd has in Mass Effect already. And I hate that in games. I like feeling "human." What we have now in the world with everyone bisexual Sheperd wants it so Sheperd gets it. I don't know, but it's not really a RPG so much as it is a dating Sim at that point. And there are enough sims for all sexualities to where I can go play those instead if I want a large variety of personalities to choose from for my sexuality.

Here's another assumption made that I don't really understand. That a love interest available to both genders of protagonist is 'bisexual'. That conclusion does not follow from the premise. There is nothing to stop BW from making Tali a lesbian in a game with a femShep and heterosexual in a game with a dudeShep. Both possibilities are entirely consistent.

You don't want want everyone to be Shepard-sexual because you claim it isn't realistic. But every woman who looks at manShep wanting to get in his pants is somehow okay.

Charisma is not necessarily physical attractiveness. While physical attractiveness definitely helps with charisma, it's not the same thing at all. And why are you referring to me as "you folks?" 


What? I don't want every woman in Sheperd's pants. I absolutely hated how they were like "by the way Tali is attracted to you." And for the record, I played as FemShep first, and no, I didn't romance Liara. 

[Abispa]

The whole process of assigning a character to be a LI is artificial to begin with, so I have no problem with all LIs being "bi" by default, unless the writers feel it is important for a character to be "gay" or "straight." I guess you can count Sebastian as such a character. Of the remaining eight party members in DA2, only four are possible LIs and they are "bi."

I've read some complaining about Anders being retconned to "bi" since he was "girl crazy" in DA:A, but at no time was it established that he didn't like guys. The DA writers decided to make him bisexual and even fashioned for him a historical gay relationship. That was THEIR decision to do so, and they aren't bound to limit their characters to fit the demands of any ground, s/s supporters or s/s critics.

Critics can claim conspiracies run by some politically powerful pink mafia, but I find that the effectiveness of s/s fans being catered to by EA, Bioware and Bethesda is powered more by the strength of their arguments for fairness than the number of their members in the gaming community. With default "bi" LIs, a s/s fan can have his/her gay romance and it takes nothing away from me.

This can apply to xenosexuals as well. Yes, in my mind and in my game the Tali romance pushes believability to the breaking point. Not because an alien loves Shepard and vice versa, but because them going all the way blows apart the whole fragile immune system lore of the Quarians. So my Shepard says "No, you'll get sick." No matter how much she tries to seduce him, my Shepard remains firm to MY ME universe. I'm happy, and I keep my "little sister." Meanwhile, Talimancers can lube themselves up with some amazing Mordin sex gel and go to town. They're happy. Bioware catered to two different groups of fans, and the only reason either group could be unhappy is if they're anal retentive enough to base their gaming happiness on everyone playing the game their way.

[Carfax]

Athayniel wrote...

I take it to be limited resources and preferring to tighten the focus of the story paths they're providing. I then note that they left themselves open to expending it all by not making any definitive statements should they choose to revisit things at a later time. It is a common writing technique. Had Miranda actually turned down an approach by femShep then I might agree that it would be out of character for her to then enter into a relationship with her in ME3. That event never took place however.

As many people have already noted, Mass Effect is NOT a dating sim, so people cannot realistically expect the game to support their every whim and fancy with dialogue, because all of the dialogue is voiced and it takes up disk space..  Simply because Miranda or Jacob doesn't turn down a proposition from same sex Shepard, has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of whether these characters are actually bisexual.  The only reliable indicator is the romanceable dialogue, which supports the notion that these characters are heterosexual. 

In the end, it's the writer that determines the sexuality of these characters, and unless the Mass Effect team has chosen to follow in the footsteps of the Dragon Age 2 team by making all romanceable NPCs contextually bi, then I doubt their sexuality will shift in ME3.

There are many ways to create the implication of heterosexuality. Even so, implication is not certainty and it leaves the writers open to take different story paths in future. Sure, Miranda has past relationships with men in the canon, it certainly implies her attraction to men in general, it doesn't imply a lack of attraction in women. That was entirely your assumption. Other characters don't even have confirmed relationships with the opposite sex in their backstory and yet you still claim their heterosexuality is implied. You're assuming their heterosexuality. I assume nothing.

And again, Mass Effect is not a dating sim, so the game has no obligation to specifically state what the sexuality of the characters are!

It can be implied, via their actions, dialogue, or whether they are available for S/S romance.

And many of the characters do have confirmed relationships or sexual flings with the opposite sex.  Garrus had sex with a Turian female, Thane was married I believe, Jacob had an affair with Miranda, Miranda with Jacob, Ashley had some crush on a fellow male squad mate on Eden Prime, Jack had a boyfriend, Kasumi had her boyfriend, and expresses her attraction to Jacob.....

I think the only characters that don't imply their attraction to the opposite sex in their background is Tali and Kaidan, although I recall Kaidan saying he found Liara "easy on the eyes."

Yes, bigots called him out on a web forum because he showed them what a bad idea it is to assume things. I don't see the problem.

Yeah, Anders goes from being a ladies man in Dragon Age Awakening to being a full blown homosexual in DA2....if you play as MaleHawke. 
 

Why? Don't you want to play ME3? Or do you just not want me to play the kind of ME3 I'd like to play?

It seemed the comment was expected of me, so I said it

[DarkDragon777]

FoxHound109 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I love how you're just proving my point.

<----- Humor.


<----- Your head.

Oh You. For all your petty attempts to appear to be clever, you don't even have the brains to understand the point I was getting at. You told me to deal with all the gay propaganda in schools and the media, and basically admitted that it happens. I don't mean that gays are going to physically dominate the world, but all of this foolishness is going to have affects. Not as if someone as short-sighted as you would understand.

I'm seriously laughing out loud right now like you can't image. Because God knows that an animated image of a fictional character portraying a well known meme is clearly an admittence of anything other than sarcasm or a joke. While you're at it, I suggest you start barracading all your Home Depots because since we're taking .gifs literally that means that my lesbian army will be upon your doorstep in no time. Probably to clean up your town and do some DIY home repairs. OH THE HORROR!

I'll be sure to add a footnote to every .gif I post from now on so that people "as short-sighted as you" you understand how humor functions. Oh, sweet, sweet irony, you are a devilish mistress!

the funny thing is I never even mentioned the army of lesbians picture.

[Radahldo]

I often wonder do 'unrealistic bisexuals!' people ever write out their arguments in wordpad before they come in here? The arguments always veer off into nonsense and weird personal attacks so fast.

I don't mean that gays are going to physically dominate the world, but all of this foolishness is going to have affects. Not as if someone as short-sighted as you would understand.

Cause really, what is this? How do we always get here? Why would you say that?

This is basically what you said:

[Youknow]

jlb524 wrote...
There will still be some attraction measure which is 'realistic'.  It might not be perfect, but it's still there and is still better than nothing...as step in the right direction towards 'realism'.

Sure I guess. But I really don't want it taking priority over romance. That's why I even made the passing comment of there no longer being romance in games. It's less of a pain to deal with. 

Youknow wrote...


Well, you were the one arguing that these games need to be 'realistic' so the all-bisexual option is bad.  Some have said that it's a better use of resources as it adds more options for everyone.  You keep bringing up the 'realism' point.  I offered a counter based on attractiveness and now all of a sudden, realism can be tossed aside for consideration of resources.

Why would I toss it aside? You never actually made a point that makes this work anyways. Attractiveness isn't going to help your argument anyways. If it were in the game, then you shouldn't have a problem with people not being bisexual then. As it would seem pretty bad of an oversight for most women characters to find women just as sexual attractive as a man. Or men to find men just as sexually attractive as a woman. 

Even with bisexual romances, it's not resource saving. It's worse. You still have to redo all of the scenes over again to ensure that the male and female bodytypes don't have clipping issues, you have to redo all of the lines for the characters in question, ie, ME2 has 6 romances, and making them all bisexual requires you to do 12 lines as opposed to 6. And the main character (Sheperd in this case), has to have the lines recorded as well. You are literally doing scenes more times. 

Youknow wrote...

So you liked it but thought it was creepy?  I don't really follow.

I'll be clearer then. Sorry. I liked the fact that she was a creeper in the sense that as a character, I found it kind of a funny quirk. With Sheperd being the only initiator, you can have people having quirks like that. Sort of like how in Dragon Age, all of the characters had their quirks whether you were romancing them or not. Zevran was pretty forward with his liking you, Leliana thought of you as a dear friend, and then pushes to move passed if you let her, Morrigan is standofish and aloof, and Alistar is incredibly shy about the whole thing. You can't get things like that if you are the person that always initiates the romance. 

[Abispa]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Hay, you take that back!

Wrex totally harbors romantic feelings towards my Shepards.

Repeat after me:

EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE DAMN UNIVERSE IS KROGAN-SEXUAL, DAMMIT!

[Athayniel]

Youknow wrote...

Charisma is not necessarily physical attractiveness. While physical attractiveness definitely helps with charisma, it's not the same thing at all. And why are you referring to me as "you folks?"

I used "you folks" because the point you brought up is one I have heard before from others so I prefer to address the entirety of your caucus on the issue at once. It saves on the typing. And yes, the 'charisma' stat encompasses more than physical attraction, but physical attraction is a component of it and I used it as an example of where a BioWare RPG used the 'attractiveness' stat in regards to enabling/preventing romances. Other RPG systems have a more direct 'physical appearance' stat and would work in similar ways.

What? I don't want every woman in Sheperd's pants. I absolutely
hated how they were like "by the way Tali is attracted to you."

The fact remains that almost every woman on the Normandy is available for dudeShep to romance. Why is it such a palaver for them to be available to Shepard regardless of gender? Especially in the supposedly more liberal, more inclusive, more progressive future of Mass Effect. The argument you use is realism. The one I use instead is entertainment.

And for the record, I played as FemShep first, and no, I didn't romance Liara.

Great. Not that germane to the discussion but nice to know.

[Xilizhra]

EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE DAMN UNIVERSE IS KROGAN-SEXUAL, DAMMIT!

Well, not me. Quite frankly, I find it repulsive.

[Abispa]

Xilizhra wrote...

EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE DAMN UNIVERSE IS KROGAN-SEXUAL, DAMMIT!

Well, not me. Quite frankly, I find it repulsive.

Okay, just add a bottle of Tequilla then.

[FoxHound109]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

the funny thing is I never even mentioned the army of lesbians picture.

Yes, that is in fact hilarious. You know, the part where you decided to take half of the clearly humorous post in a literal fashion while clearly ignoring the second portion of the post that was only more of the same exaggerated style? Here, I'll simplify it for you: the post is divided into two separate portions, both of which actually go with one another since they're clearly tackling the exact same "argument" you made. Both portions are meant to imply a level of sarcasm that deals with pretending that your argument is accurate. I know, I know, it's a little too complicated and I can see why anyone would take it as if I was admitting that their argument was correct. But I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there and I'll tell you how I became the prince of -- no, wait, sorry! Sidetracked! Anyway, it's a joke. One that clearly went over your head. As did that second joke you just quoted where I was mocking you for calling anybody else shortsighted and pointing out that flaw in you taking the first .gif literally while ignoring the second one.




Warning: Most of the above may or may not contain sarcasm. 

Modifié par FoxHound109, 31 octobre 2011 - 01:36 .

[Youknow]

Athayniel wrote...


I used "you folks" because the point you brought up is one I have heard before from others so I prefer to address the entirety of your caucus on the issue at once. It saves on the typing. And yes, the 'charisma' stat encompasses more than physical attraction, but physical attraction is a component of it and I used it as an example of where a BioWare RPG used the 'attractiveness' stat in regards to enabling/preventing romances. Other RPG systems have a more direct 'physical appearance' stat and would work in similar ways.

Okay, I see where you are going. Off hand, I can't think of many games that literally have an "attractiveness" stat.  If you know of any, I'd be happy to hear tem. 

The fact remains that almost every woman on the Normandy is available for dudeShep to romance. Why is it such a palaver for them to be available to Shepard regardless of gender? Especially in the supposedly more liberal, more inclusive, more progressive future of Mass Effect. The argument you use is realism. The one I use instead is entertainment.

Then I think that is more of a problem with the character-romance ratios than anything else. We can ignore Kasumi and Zaeed because they might not be had by every person playing the game. 

And for the record, I played as FemShep first, and no, I didn't romance Liara.

Great. Not that germane to the discussion but nice to know.

I put that because of a comment you made earlier at me which I found to be highly unfair, largely because I don't agree with it. 

You don't want want everyone to be Shepard-sexual because you claim it isn't realistic. But every woman who looks at manShep wanting to get in his pants is somehow okay.

[jlb524]

Youknow wrote...
Sure I guess. But I really don't want it taking priority over romance.  

It is part of the romance though!  We are trying to make the romance more realistic and better!

Youknow wrote...
That's why I even made the passing comment of there no longer being romance in games. It's less of a pain to deal with.

I don't get this attitude...the 'I don't like where they are going with romances so I want them to just remove them all!!!'.

If you don't like them, don't play them.

I also only ever hear remarks like this in s/s romance threads for some reason.

Youknow wrote...
Why would I toss it aside? You never actually made a point that makes this work anyways. Attractiveness isn't going to help your argument anyways.

Because attractiveness isn't a realistic factor for determining romantic compatibility?  

Youknow wrote...
If it were in the game, then you shouldn't have a problem with people not being bisexual then. As it would seem pretty bad of an oversight for most women characters to find women just as sexual attractive as a man. Or men to find men just as sexually attractive as a woman. 

You do realize I'm not really arguing for an 'attraction meter' but am simply providing a counter-argument to yours, right?

Youknow wrote...
Even with bisexual romances, it's not resource saving. It's worse. You still have to redo all of the scenes over again to ensure that the male and female bodytypes don't have clipping issues, you have to redo all of the lines for the characters in question, ie, ME2 has 6 romances, and making them all bisexual requires you to do 12 lines as opposed to 6. And the main character (Sheperd in this case), has to have the lines recorded as well. You are literally doing scenes more times. 

But if you do want them to provide s/s content (and you did say that you do earlier) it is a better use of resources to make the handful of LIs open to both genders vs. making entirely new gay only LIs.

Youknow wrote...

I'll be clearer then. Sorry. I liked the fact that she was a creeper in the sense that as a character, I found it kind of a funny quirk. With Sheperd being the only initiator, you can have people having quirks like that. Sort of like how in Dragon Age, all of the characters had their quirks whether you were romancing them or not. Zevran was pretty forward with his liking you, Leliana thought of you as a dear friend, and then pushes to move passed if you let her, Morrigan is standofish and aloof, and Alistar is incredibly shy about the whole thing. You can't get things like that if you are the person that always initiates the romance. 

Okay.

I really don't mind it when characters initiate.  Some do and complain about it a lot, regardless if its gay/straight/bisexual.

[ElitePinecone]

Carfax wrote...

unless the Mass Effect team has chosen to follow in the footsteps of the Dragon Age 2 team by making all romanceable NPCs contextually bi, then I doubt their sexuality will shift in ME3.

Just pointing out: from all the information we have, not all of the previous NPCs will be bisexual. But some will be. Ditto for new characters. 

The best assumption at the moment is that Ashley and Kaidan are both available for both genders of Shepard, depending on conversation choices early on. This is based on a half dozen tidbits of information and a fair bit of guesswork. It's not anywhere near confirmed, though. 

Interesting conversation about attractiveness sliders also, I can't see how it makes the game any more fun (from a development standpoint it makes sense to make the content as widely available as possible, not narrowly) but I guess it would help with 'realism'. 

Also, on fully gay or lesbian LIs: it won't happen. Matter of resources, not progressivism. Bioware are at the leading edge of putting in s/s content and they do it with bisexual characters because even to them, it's not efficient or a good use of resources to make fully gay or lesbian romance options. 

[Carfax]

Athayniel wrote...

You don't want want everyone to be Shepard-sexual because you claim it isn't realistic. But every woman who looks at manShep wanting to get in his pants is somehow okay.

Only an average man would say something like this..  Handsome men, especially if they are in a position of authority, power, wealth etc will invariably attract a lot of women.

So no, it's not unrealistic for so many women to be attracted to Shepard.