25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Carfax]

@KawaiiKatie, Deviija and MackenzieShepard, you're very premature in your celebration

[KawaiiKatie]

Carfax wrote...

For example, quoting me saying,"Sheploo defiled by homosexuality," makes me look like an anti-gay bigot.

That's because you constantly come across as an anti-gay bigot. I don't know why you're surprised.

Same-sex romances are going to happen in this game, and you need to accept that and deal with it. Same-sex romances might even happen with characters who were previously only available as opposite-sex romances. Again, you need to accept this and deal with it. At the very least, you need to give it a chance and see how Bioware handles it before you throw up your arms and proclaim that it's the WORST THING EVAR.

[ElitePinecone]

Carfax wrote...

Nothing has changed...except that there's now a possibility that Bioware would do the incredibly stupid act of making all the love interests bisexual, just like they did in DA2, which affects character integrity and believability.

Thats all that I'm against really.  S/S romances in and of themselves don't bother me, but the "cookie cutter" romance thing has got to go.

I fail to see how any character's integrity is affected by their status as romance options. 

It can be written believably. Bioware have already promised this. If you don't find Tali "I now have a crush on you, O brave space man!" or Garrus "Get in my pants, human, even though I'd never date any other member of your species" unbelievable or unrealistic, you can handle a character revealing or discovering that they've harboured feelings for Shepard. 

More to the point: Bioware have no obligation to uphold believability. They're more than willing to trample all over the lore, canon and whatever they need to in pursuit of something they want to do. 

Casey Hudson wrote...

one of the big ones was Garrus, people just loved Garrus and there was a love of interest in having a romance with Garrus. So we thought, "Let's try this in Mass Effect 2[/i]." If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay.

Purely brought about by fan demand and contrary to all established lore, belivability, realism and the integrity of the character. He never showed an interest in humans, but Bioware did it because people asked for it.

I don't know - personally or as a guess - whether or not Bioware are going to make squadmates from ME/ME2 available for both genders in the third game. I hope they do, and I think they will. 

But if they do, it's because they have a good reason for it, story-wise and in their use of resources. Heck, yes, it might even be for appeasement. In the same way that people were clamouring for a Garrus and Tali romance. That's for Bioware to decide and defend. 

If you have a problem with that, I can only suggest that you're taking the question of whether a fictional character in a fictional universe is believable or not far too seriously. Enjoy the game, play the romances you like and ignore the ones you don't. 

[Preie]

CarFax, You just tried to twist yourself out of an anaconda and it isn't working. Many people see thru this ploy you are attempting to front.

When you look at the game through Shepard's point-of-view, they can arrange the relationships to be "flirt first, action later" like they tried to build up in the previous games. However, an error they made was to not allow a friendship side. So to prevent ninja romancing anyone you just stopped talking.

Now back to point. If Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob or any other man does NOT come on to you then your Shepard would never know unless you flirt with them. (Then I would classify you as OMG Zev "took advantage" of me groups that flirted with him and all the sudden he is laying besides you). Just because in someone else game, they are sleeping around with Kaidan,does not make him gay in your game! Unless, the put it like Anders in which his new scene portrays him as homosexual or bisexual. That is character development, "not  it's in other games." It should have no bearing on your game at all. I see where you are coming across from limited disc space, but then it is a failure on story development, not "conforming" and your other blatantly ignorant words

You are stating that ALL Shepards are the "ladies-man" and that is just not true in a ROLE-PLAYING game. I could make him love chick flicks, chocolate cake, and Hair Band music. That is MY Shepard.

My previous argument stands with those who state.. so and so cannot be gay/bi because it would break their character. In no instance in the game, does it state for ANY of the team members, what their sexual orientation is.

Furthermore... didn't you know that last Bond actor was a homosexual. Imagine that.. a homosexual gentleman can portray a ladies man. In fact, it is not uncommon for deviating sexual orientated members of our society to hide their sexuality.

I personally believe that it should not be a defining factor. Example: I am gay so I should act this way. Should do this and that. Furthermore, I really despise titles everybody gives but cannot change the world.

Modifié par Preie, 31 octobre 2011 - 07:47 .

[Carfax]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

That's because you constantly come across as an anti-gay bigot. I don't know why you're surprised.

I'm not surprised that you and yours see me as an anti-gay bigot.  Unless I express my complete and utter support for S/S romances in Mass Effect 3, I'll always be viewed as such by people like you.

Of course the truth is somewhere in between..  I'm neither expressly for, or against it.

Same-sex romances are going to happen in this game, and you need to accept that and deal with it.

This is an established fact, and I'm fine with this.
 

Same-sex romances might even happen with characters who were previously only available as opposite-sex romances.

This is not an established fact, but it's a possibility.  Therefore, I will continue to voice my displeasure and make it known to Bioware that I would not support this.

Again, you need to accept this and deal with it. At the very least, you need to give it a chance and see how Bioware handles it before you throw up your arms and proclaim that it's the WORST THING EVAR.

Nothing good will come from making all love interests bisexual, except for pleasing a small minority of fans. 

[Maugrim]

I don't know how to make this any clearer. We can see your posting history, the lying is pointless. Well maybe not you've been trolling this thread into being off topic. Congratulations.

Hey all let's try to move onto something or someone worthwhile ok?

Although Ali Hillis is very busy I am still eventually looking forward to do an interview with her over Skype. She's definitely into playing Liara and joking around with fans, berating some who didn't remain loyal from ME1 to ME2. I'm almost afraid of telling her that at least one of my femsheps will probably dump Liara to romance a whoever the new or newly bi female character is.

[KawaiiKatie]

makenzieshepard wrote...

I'm almost afraid of telling her that at least one of my femsheps will probably dump Liara to romance a whoever the new or newly bi female character is.

Ask her how Liara will feel about being dumped for a "real" woman.

I mean, after all the "I'm not actually a woman" dialogue, it's going to be fun to see how Liara handles it when human females can vie for femShep's attention.

[Comsky159]

Carfax it's time to give up. Proposing arguments like those in this thread is like trying to outwit the ultimate geth platform; heaps of intelligent people forming a collective super-intelligent consciousness. They are particularly adept at digging up your BSN service record, which has to be pretty bloody spotless if you actually want to stand a chance.

Run away now. Seriously.

[Carfax]

ElitePinecone wrote...

It can be written believably. Bioware have already promised this. If you don't find Tali "I now have a crush on you, O brave space man!" or Garrus "Get in my pants, human, even though I'd never date any other member of your species" unbelievable or unrealistic, you can handle a character revealing or discovering that they've harboured feelings for Shepard.

I was never a big supporter of interspecies romances either.  Tali stretched the point of believability, but she was at least mammalian (or similar to mammals).  Garrus on the other hand smashed believability to bits..

They're more than willing to trample all over the lore, canon and whatever they need to in pursuit of something they want to do. 

This is true..  This is very ironic, seeing as Bioware went to great pains to try and make the Mass Effect Universe as realistic as possible, by attempting to explain how the base technology works and make it semi scientific.

Purely brought about by fan demand and contrary to all established lore, belivability, realism and the integrity of the character. He never showed an interest in humans, but Bioware did it because people asked for it.

And yet people asked for S/S romances in ME and ME2, but got more or less shafted, so what does that say about Bioware?

Enjoy the game, play the romances you like and ignore the ones you don't.

If it does happen, this is exactly what I'll end up doing.

[Carfax]

Preie wrote...

CarFax, You just tried to twist yourself out of an anaconda and it isn't working. Many people see thru this ploy you are attempting to front.

When you look at the game through Shepard's point-of-view, they can arrange the relationships to be "flirt first, action later" like they tried to build up in the previous games. However, an error they made was to not allow a friendship side. So to prevent ninja romancing anyone you just stopped talking.

Now back to point. If Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob or any other man does NOT come on to you then your Shepard would never know unless you flirt with them. (Then I would classify you as OMG Zev "took advantage" of me groups that flirted with him and all the sudden he is laying besides you). Just because in someone else game, they are sleeping around with Kaidan,does not make him gay in your game! Unless, the put it like Anders in which his new scene portrays him as homosexual or bisexual. That is character development, "not  it's in other games." It should have no bearing on your game at all. I see where you are coming across from limited disc space, but then it is a failure on story development, not "conforming" and your other blatantly ignorant words

You are stating that ALL Shepards are the "ladies-man" and that is just not true in a ROLE-PLAYING game. I could make him love chick flicks, chocolate cake, and Hair Band music. That is MY Shepard.

My previous argument stands with those who state.. so and so cannot be gay/bi because it would break their character. In no instance in the game, does it state for ANY of the team members, what their sexual orientation is.

Furthermore... didn't you know that last Bond actor was a homosexual. Imagine that.. a homosexual gentleman can portray a ladies man. In fact, it is not uncommon for deviating sexual orientated members of our society to hide their sexuality.

I personally believe that it should not be a defining factor. Example: I am gay so I should act this way. Should do this and that. Furthermore, I really despise titles everybody gives but cannot change the world.

OK fine, I'm done with this topic for a good while.  I've extinguished myself and can no longer be bothered..  The only thing that can compel me to post in this thread again, is if someone starts bringing up Alfred Kinsey

But I have to say, you're wrong about James Bond.  Daniel Craig, the latest Bond actor I'm pretty sure is straight..

[Fault Girl]

Just as long as the romances are done well, I just don't see the issue of making characters bisexual, it's not about reality, it's about choice.

Me romancing kaidan as a straight woman is not going to affect a gay man romancing him in another mass effect universe.

*bangs head against wall for 100th time*

[Preie]

Carfax wrote...

But I have to say, you're wrong about James Bond.  Daniel Craig, the latest Bond actor I'm pretty sure is straight..

This is correct. And I will scratch it. It was "he proposed a gay scene." 

I just don't understand your argument. I would understand a don't make everybody bi because of poor story telling but not because it's "conforming," boring, or against lore( unless proof is provided).

And Combsky, intellegence posts also comes with objectivity and truths. If you see a potential babysitter has a history of violent crimes. You would have to investigate to find solutions. It is the same thing on a history search of chats. It gives views and idea on viewpoints without scouring the forum. It doesn't have to be spotless, but it will show general a person's biases and viewpoints. Wouldn't be different in any other aspects of life

Modifié par Preie, 31 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .

[ElitePinecone]

Carfax wrote...

And yet people asked for S/S romances in ME and ME2, but got more or less shafted, so what does that say about Bioware?

It's complicated - there were rumours that some developers had tried to get them included in ME2 but were shut down by high-ups within the company. 

I'd guess that the executives were spooked by the negative publicity surrounding Mass Effect in particular, and opted to steer right away from anything that could get them noticed on more conservative radars. Hence, also, I think. why Mass Effect's 'sex scenes' are far tamer than its predecessor's. 

I have no idea why Bioware suddenly decided, now, to put them in ME3. Given that it came after the six month delay, I'd guess that it had something to do with having more time and resources to polish the game and make it excellent for all audiences. But Bioware developers also read the forums. 

Clearly, people asking for s/s romances are never going to be more numerous than those asking for a thousand other things - and I accept that. But for the past two years or so that I've been involved in threads like this, all we've tried to do is show that there's a market and an audience for s/s content. I think we've succeeded. 

Another thing:

Bioware have very, very accurate data on who uses what content in their games - it's called telemetry, and from some questions I've asked devs on Twitter, it's amazingly precise. Down to the level of how many characters chose a particular dialogue option in a conversation. 

This means they have extremely detailed knowledge of how many people use their romance options. If they're looking for a market, all they need to do is look at those figures for DA:O and DA2. By all accounts many more people used the m/m options, for example, than they had expected. 

[Athayniel]

Carfax wrote...

It means the game is not a romance simulator, and thus dialogue pertaining to romances probably get short shrift due to limited disk space.

It's also a matter of theme.  Mass Effect is an action RPG, and as such, it's beyond the scope of the game to talk about issues like sexual orientation imo.  Shepard asking potential love interests whether they're into sausage or beaver would be truly laughable though..

Leaving aside the puerile language you engage in to disparage same sex relationships, and I hold no illusions that this isn't your intent, how is this not compatible with Mass Effect's genre and theme? Mass Effect is an RPG, wherein the player "plays a role" and interacts with characters on a multitude of levels and develops relationships of friendship or rivalry or mentorship or utility with them. Some of those relationships can even progress far enough so that it introduces a romantic element. Nothing there is incompatible at all. Mass Effect's theme and setting is that of a sci-fi space opera set in a time of war, which we know from previous examples is not mutually exclusive with the concept of romances. It sounds to me that when you say action RPG you actually want the RPG to be silent. I suggest you play a game more in keeping with that design philosophy, there are plenty of excellent examples to choose from. If the reason you play Mass Effect is the story then you don't have a leg to stand on.

Oh, so we're bringing the real world into it now?  I thought Thedas was supposed to be some rainbow paradise?  Why would Anders hide his sexuality?

Whether the taboo exists and whether people feel comfortable talking about such matters are two different things. People have different ideas about what to keep private and what to share with others and sexuality and sex is included in that. Many straight people don't talk about their love life and there's certainly no taboo against that. Even so, It has already been discussed in this thread that Thedas isn't a perfect example of sexual liberality either. There is a paucity of healthy homosexual relationships throughout the games, not that the heterosexual relationships you see are that much better. As an example, the nobility is still expected to enter into relationships with the goal of producing heirs, they're not as free to choose based on such frivolous things as love and orientation as one might hope for.

And it's not scorched Earth policy.  It's just acknowledging that Bioware's taken this romance crap too far, and it needs to be either scaled back, or removed completely.

In your opinion, which is not shared by as many people as you think. The fact that BioWare specifically added a sub-forum for the sole purpose of discussing characters and romances argues that it is a feature which people enjoy and expect to be present in BioWare games. They certainly have for over a decade now.

Modifié par Athayniel, 31 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .

[Chloe_W1971]

Carfax wrote...

For example, quoting me saying,"Sheploo defiled by homosexuality," makes me look like an anti-gay bigot.

No, Carfax. Someone quoting you doesn't make you look like an anti-gay bigot. You writing a post about how Sheploo is "defiled by homesexuality" (emphasis mine) does.

Modifié par Chloe_W1971, 31 octobre 2011 - 02:38 .

[jlb524]

ElitePinecone wrote...
Bewbies and realistic sex? Oh good, awesome, more!
Male-male romances? Eew, no, defiles the James Bond-Sheploo! Bioware's caving in to political correctness! This romance crap has gone too far!!!!

Yeah, as I've mentioned before, I've noticed an increasing prevalance of this kind of attitude since BW has started expanding on romance options for gay or bi PCs.

The romances themselves haven't really changed much (you talk to the LI a few times and then there's a love scene at the end...no bewbies) but who has access to them has changed.

However, some aren't happy with this type of change so now, BW romances 'suck' and should be removed from the game or 'scaled back' (whatever that means).  And yes, it's especially ironic when it comes from someone who wants 'moar' in the romance department as long as this 'moar' is catering to the straight male audience.

ElitePinecone wrote...
This means they have extremely detailed knowledge of how many people use their romance options. If they're looking for a market, all they need to do is look at those figures for DA:O and DA2. By all accounts many more people used the m/m options, for example, than they had expected. 

Yes, and I think Gaider even said that the all bisexual experiment for DA2 was 'successful' which I assume means that their data showed that a decent portion of players who even did a romance went for an s/s one.  I'd be interested in seeing the numbers, but it's good to know that whatever these numbers are, the BW dev team considers them sizeable enough to justify what they did in DA2.

Modifié par jlb524, 31 octobre 2011 - 03:25 .

[Cartims]

Happy Halloween...oh my.. I see some oF you men dressed as women...how nice, It is such a shame you can only come out once a year...you cowards...tomorrow you can go back into your closet and toss all your insults at gay people again..you know who you are...

[Quething]

I see we've been feeding the trolls this weekend? No matter, a banquet of such intelligent and eloquent debate is tasty for legit posters as well.

If I may chime in on the last question before things went back to the cyclical retcon argument, in terms of "bisexual or Shepsexual," I've officially changed my position on that. Generally I'm vehemently anti-PCsexual, it's a cheap way to sidestep representation and a pointless ego-fluff for the player. But ME already has a history of Shepsexuality (Garrus, Thane, Legion), so with some of the NPCs it'd just be a matter of being in-character at this point. I'd be furious if every or even most LIs weren't "really" queer, but if there's a mix, that does add some interesting variety in the same way that some NPCs making the first move and others waiting does.

(I'm torn on the "NPCs making the first move." I like how DA2 did it; it's good that Anders is in love with the PC regardless, it's basically fundamental to his (obsessive, unbalanced) character, and it's good that Isabela thinks the PC is attractive regardless, it's fundamental to her (carefree, sex-focused) character. I don't like that Liara and Tali are in love with the PC regardless, though; it feels a bit clumsy and out of step with the way they seem to want those two women to come across, particularly in cases when the PC is strongly xenophobic/cruel/renegade/etc. I guess, like everything else, it comes down to execution...)

[jtav]

I realize this is old hat to some of you, but hack do you hack the game to make the s/s romances available? Particularly in ME2.

[jlb524]

Quething wrote...

If I may chime in on the last question before things went back to the cyclical retcon argument, in terms of "bisexual or Shepsexual," I've officially changed my position on that. Generally I'm vehemently anti-PCsexual, it's a cheap way to sidestep representation and a pointless ego-fluff for the player. But ME already has a history of Shepsexuality (Garrus, Thane, Legion), so with some of the NPCs it'd just be a matter of being in-character at this point. I'd be furious if every or even most LIs weren't "really" queer, but if there's a mix, that does add some interesting variety in the same way that some NPCs making the first move and others waiting does.

I argue that all BW Lis have been "PC-sexual" in the sense that they will jump in bed with any PC regardless of morality, class, race (if that applies), etc. with the only exception ever being gender.  I'm making a more liberal use of the word 'sexuality' of course.  Being a heterosexual woman doesn't mean that you could potentially be attracted to every man on the planet...I like to think there are other factors that govern and individual's sexuality (sexualty, in this case, being defined as the type of person you could be attracted to) besides gender, though that's the focus as the phrases were initially created to label 'deviant' sexual behavior (homosexuality) and distinguish it from 'the good stuff' (heterosexuality).

[Abispa]

You know, I am not gay and I don't USUALLY pursue s/s romances with my "real" characters (though once I beat the game I may run through just to check out the other options, including s/s). I felt it was my obligation to jump in and say I support the s/s option (including the dreaded "m/m" option) being in ME3.

I'm amazed that such a relatively minor feature of Mass Effect 3 can so easily bring excitement to some players while attracting the wrath of others who lose nothing. My favorite cop-out is the common "they should just take ALL romances away now." That's easy enough to do, just don't romance anyone. A s/s critic is more than capable of making that game his/herself (EMPOWERMENT! Embrace it!) without having Bioware take that option away from those who want it. I am amazed how many players play characters who can save the universe with a machine gun, but are terrified to hear a s/s LI say, "I like you!" or to tell a potential LI, "No!"

Bioware has repeatedly posted player data that shows most breeze through the game without ever taking a LI. But that s/s or o/s LI is still there if they change their minds.

I enjoy (sort of) how this thread has allowed me insights to so many people. I've learned to appreciate Quething's game design insights, ElitePinecone's moderate tone and observations, IsaacShep's obsession with Kaidan, jlb524's knack for debating an opponent into contradicting themselves, makenzieshepard's menacing presence and soapbox passion, Cootie's quirky posts, and Woo's ability to assign 24 hour bans.

This is Abispa, and this is my favorite thread on the BSN.

[jlb524]

jtav wrote...

I realize this is old hat to some of you, but hack do you hack the game to make the s/s romances available? Particularly in ME2.

I did it a http://social.biowar...915646]looooong time ago following these instructions[/url] and I got it working for Jack and Miranda. in ME2.

It's not pretty, though.  The VO is messed up and you look weird when you gender swap.

I can dig up the ME1 instructions if you wish.  That hack is much better.

[Quething]

Aww, thanks Abispa, we love you too

jtav, for ME1, try this method. It works better for femSheps - it feels perfectly normal for your crew to call you "Sir" as a woman, rather less so for them to constantly call you "Ma'am" as a man (actually that right there is almost motivation for me to hex edit even when I'm not planning to romance Ash) - but the mechanics are the same for both genders, and it imports fine to ME2.

For ME2, the easiest thing is just to quicksave before the final platonic conversation with your LI of choice, open your save in Gibbed, and swap genders (also a good idea to temporarily swap headmorphs, to prevent Lovecraftian horrors). Once you play out that conversation and start up the romance the flags go active and you should be able to swap back and proceed as normal with your s/s Shepard - you'll have to use subtitles since the s/s audiofiles, where they even exist, aren't linked to the dialog trees, and Shep will just bob mutely through his/her lines, but the scenes will play out okay.

Modifié par Quething, 31 octobre 2011 - 11:10 .

[Chun Hei]

Bioware says that the s/s romances will be activated on how we have treated them in the past but I have been replaying my games and I find it difficult to understand what they mean. Tali loves male Shepard no matter what but it now matters how female Shepard treated her?

In a way I find that funny since that means that the Tali s/s romance would be "more realistic" and "better written" than the o/s Talimance that has Tali standing in Engineering singing "I Wanna Be Your Dog" to herself all day. That irony would be delicious considering the attitudes of SOME Talimancers.

I see no special way to treat Kaidan that could be recognized other than I could have been nice, mean or let him die on Virmire. Unless that is what Bioware meant. "Depending on how we treated them" actually means "If you let them survive Virmire."

Garrus already respects my male Shepard so I cannot wait to buy some glow in the dark condoms and recreate the scene from "Skin Deep." Glow in the dark claw hammer action!