25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

Comsky159 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

ladyofpayne wrote...

Gay love with krogan. Guys, you really...

"Let's not involve the community in deciding new love interests"

Agree. Last time it happened the Talimance was born. The horror.

AHA! see what you did there Mr Issac. However I played ME2 first and encountered her as a romance option originally, so I may guiltlessly evade the worst of your scorn (in my mind anyway).

As did I.

[Sethan_1]

Estelindis wrote...

Sethan, I agree with your post. On the other hand, Bioware games haven't exactly come up trumps in subtle social cues in many other areas, so hoping for them in this one may be unrealistic.

I would just like to say, though, that any such system as outlined above would have to work both ways: it should give gay PCs a way to signal their preference so that they don't get hit on by straight characters.

Absolutely - that was what I intended.  Sorry if that didn't come through in my post.  The whole point would be to give the player an opportunity to demonstrate a preference that the NPC would then react appropriately to.  Since the option for such romances are there, that should apply to hetero, gay, and bi preferences (with the remaining option being to choose to not state a preference and let the chips fall where they may).

[jlb524]

ElitePinecone wrote...
Yep - although DA2's LIs *did* have slightly different lines depending on the gender of Hawke, didn't they?

Yes..but the core of the romance was independent of gender.

ElitePinecone wrote...
It doesn't make it *exclusively* gay/lesbian, because the core of the dialogue is the same, but some added touches can differentiate them from each other. 

I still don't see why there needs to be two distinct romance paths based on gender.  What DA2 did that I do really like was give two distinct romance paths based on how you interacted with the LI beforehand (friend or rival).  I find that ultimately more interesting and rewarding.  So, I can't see how the DA2 dev team took the 'lazy way out' with romances as most say they did because I believe DA2 is the first game to create two romance paths for each LI.

To create two distinct paths based on gender. I fear they would rely heavily on gender stereotypes to distinguish them or my PC would constantly have to listen to her girlfriend talk about how weird it was that they were together because they are 'two ladies', etc.

[ElitePinecone]

Sethan_1 wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Sethan, I agree with your post. On the other hand, Bioware games haven't exactly come up trumps in subtle social cues in many other areas, so hoping for them in this one may be unrealistic.

I would just like to say, though, that any such system as outlined above would have to work both ways: it should give gay PCs a way to signal their preference so that they don't get hit on by straight characters.

Absolutely - that was what I intended.  Sorry if that didn't come through in my post.  The whole point would be to give the player an opportunity to demonstrate a preference that the NPC would then react appropriately to.  Since the option for such romances are there, that should apply to hetero, gay, and bi preferences (with the remaining option being to choose to not state a preference and let the chips fall where they may).

Not that this wouldn't work, but given how few LIs there are it might end up being easier just to have a very clear dialogue option for each one that unambiguously signals that it's the start of a romance arc. ME2 worked fairly well in this area, I thought. 

If 'casually stating a sexual preference in conversation' acts as a proxy-filter anyway by coralling the dialogue options presented to the player based on stated orientation, I'd stll get the sense it was being done moreso to assuage people who were uncomfortable with certain types of romance content (s/s or otherwise) than to heighten the connection with the character or to make things easier for the developer. 

Then there's the fact that Shepard would have to walk around all day telling each and every LI her/his particular sexual preferences, given that they can't absorb it wordlessly through osmosis and the player can't go around wearing a big sign on their head. Wouldn't the line of dialogue to every LI for Shepard that said "I like women/men/space hamsters" be just as effective as not picking the option that says "I like you"? 

I don't know - I see the advantages in having a system like that, but without knowing how hard it would be to actually implement, I'm pretty neutral about it. Isn't it easier to present every option to the player clearly, and have them decide then? 

I just get the sense that introducing a social cues dialogue option (or 'telling the NPC your orientation') is a needlessly complex solution, when it already looks like Bioware are moving to have all romances initiated by the player. 

[Estelindis]

Sethan_1 wrote...

Absolutely - that was what I intended.  Sorry if that didn't come through in my post. 

You didn't exclude that possibility in your post!    I just wanted to make sure that my response was completely unambiguous.

ElitePinecone wrote...

I just get the sense that introducing a social cues dialogue option (or 'telling the NPC your orientation') is a needlessly complex solution, when it already looks like Bioware are moving to have all romances initiated by the player. 

All very well if that's what Bioware wants to do - but if, at some point, they find themselves wanting to have NPCs initiate romances, then I think using subtle cues would be the one good way of handling it.  Another would be selection of sexual preference during character creation.  But, in this respect, I'm talking more about future Bioware games after ME3, so I'd best leave it there and not stray too far from the topic.

[Athayniel]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Then there's the fact that Shepard would have to walk around all day telling each and every LI her/his particular sexual preferences, given that they can't absorb it wordlessly through osmosis and the player can't go around wearing a big sign on their head. Wouldn't the line of dialogue to every LI for Shepard that said "I like women/men/space hamsters" be just as effective as not picking the option that says "I like you"? 

Scuttlebutt is the solution to your problems. Shep tells one person they're into space hamsters and everyone on the ship will know before they're back on the bridge. Personally I don't mind if an NPC initiates such things if it is in their character to do so. So I'd prefer the scuttlebutt idea just on the off chance it would pique their interest.

[ladyofpayne]

I hope in M+M the Shepard possible love show their interest in MShep first.

[Abispa]

Comsky159 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

ladyofpayne wrote...

Gay love with krogan. Guys, you really...

"Let's not involve the community in deciding new love interests"

Agree. Last time it happened the Talimance was born. The horror.

AHA! see what you did there Mr Issac. However I played ME2 first and encountered her as a romance option originally, so I may guiltlessly evade the worst of your scorn (in my mind anyway).

IsaacShep wasn't referring to players actively romancing Tali, but to the fact that Bioware made her LI option, and Garrus', availabe because they *shudder* catered to the fans' requests.  Thank you very much, however, for proving that it is possible for a player to enjoy an option that Bioware grants because it was catering to a group of fans that the player wasn't a part of.

[Abispa]

Subtle cues are difficult to depict even in this generation of gaming. I say that if the writer has created an aggressive or playful character, let him/her flirt with the player and have the game give the player a range of choices on how to react. In the case of characters like Fenris or Merrill, who tend to be timid romantically, just give the hero a flirt option to let him/her know the player is interested. I really don't see the big deal. I don't see why turning down a LI, even a s/s one, should bring more discomfort than deciding whether or not to kill or enslave an NPC.

While I am not against the previous LIs becoming "bi" in ME3, even though I doubt VERY much that it will happen, I would be upset if Tali were to suddenly become Isabela and Garrus suddenly became Zevran.

Modifié par Abispa, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[Chun Hei]

Estelindis wrote...

All very well if that's what Bioware wants to do - but if, at some point, they find themselves wanting to have NPCs initiate romances, then I think using subtle cues would be the one good way of handling it.  Another would be selection of sexual preference during character creation.  But, in this respect, I'm talking more about future Bioware games after ME3, so I'd best leave it there and not stray too far from the topic.

As far as the game goes homosexuality and bisexuality are ways that the characters behave during the game. No other behavior is modified by character creation and it could insulting since there is no option to turn off a character's ability to steal, murder or torment the NPCs. That would be saying that being gay or bi in a video game is somehow worse than being a murderer or a thief even if you were not consciously thinking that.

[Athayniel]

Chun Hei wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

All very well if that's what Bioware wants to do - but if, at some point, they find themselves wanting to have NPCs initiate romances, then I think using subtle cues would be the one good way of handling it.  Another would be selection of sexual preference during character creation.  But, in this respect, I'm talking more about future Bioware games after ME3, so I'd best leave it there and not stray too far from the topic.

As far as the game goes homosexuality and bisexuality are ways that the characters behave during the game. No other behavior is modified by character creation and it could insulting since there is no option to turn off a character's ability to steal, murder or torment the NPCs. That would be saying that being gay or bi in a video game is somehow worse than being a murderer or a thief even if you were not consciously thinking that.

Hmmm... no. I'll have to disagree there. Selecting your Shepard's orientation on a character screen would not be the same as the situations you described if the only thing it did was present different options in terms of Shepard's available dialogue and didn't affect the way the NPCs behaved towards Shepard. If all it did was allow femShep to flirt with Miranda but did not prevent Kaidan from telling her he thought she looked really good in green then it's not the same thing as what you've described. The key is that it affects only things Shepard can do, not what the NPCs can do. If such a thing were added to the game and the player had the ability to change it freely as many times as they wished I wouldn't say no to it.

But let me reiterate the important thing here, I'll even stress it for everyone's convenience. If such a mechanic changed the behaviour of any NPC, if unfamiliar with Shepard's orientation, but for whom it would ordinarily be in their character to flirt with someone of Shepard's gender, I would be livid. Incandescent with rage. I am all in favour of making choices about my character's behaviour, even if that choice *limits* the available options my character may have, but I would not countenance a choice I make about my character affecting the NPC's choices and behaviours in such a blatantly and artificially imposed way.

Modifié par Athayniel, 03 novembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[shepskisaac]

BOOM!

[KawaiiKatie]

IsaacShep wrote...

BOOM!

*SEXINESS*

WHOA WHERE DID ALL THIS SEXINESS COME FROM.

I need bisexual Vega in my ME3. Bioware has kept so many sexy men out of my grasp... Kaidan, Thane, Jacob... Please please please let Vega fancy the menfolk...!

[ElitePinecone]

Athayniel wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Then there's the fact that Shepard would have to walk around all day telling each and every LI her/his particular sexual preferences, given that they can't absorb it wordlessly through osmosis and the player can't go around wearing a big sign on their head. Wouldn't the line of dialogue to every LI for Shepard that said "I like women/men/space hamsters" be just as effective as not picking the option that says "I like you"? 

Scuttlebutt is the solution to your problems. Shep tells one person they're into space hamsters and everyone on the ship will know before they're back on the bridge. Personally I don't mind if an NPC initiates such things if it is in their character to do so. So I'd prefer the scuttlebutt idea just on the off chance it would pique their interest.

That's one solution, I suppose. But it seems a little difficult to write, and convenient to boot. 

I just think it'd be artificial that one misdirected love poem about space hamsters means *everyone* on the ship instantly knows about it. We don't get much of a sense of time in the ME games, nor do we see any Normandy crew talking to eachother outside scripted dialogues, but I think it'd be too large an amount of work (and too contrived) solely to engineer NPC-initiated romances. 

Plus I think the scuttlebutt idea messes with some versions of how people roleplay Shepard, and would assume that the crew don't already know or can't guess at her/his proclivities. Without starting an argument, I'd always play my lesbian or gay Shepards as comfortable people who are open - and we can assume the crew would know it about even if the CO didn't have a partner or love interest. It's hardly news in 2186 - and if they tried to turn it into a hamfisted discussion of sexuality, I don't think anyone would be appreciative.

People are already freaking out that ME3 will feature an extended coming-out sequence, based wholly on some make up crap designed to smear one of the writers. 

To my mind most of the ideas designed to advertise the protagonist's sexuality (so that NPCs 'know how to react', and the game effectively filters certain romances without calling it a filter) unnecessarily complicate the situation and would - at first glance - need more time, effort and resources than just offering the player every option and allowing them to pick or reject what they want. 

It could probably work well in some future Bioware game, but I think it complicates what should be a fairly routine sidequest in ME3, without offering much more in the way of roleplaying or decisions. 

[Athayniel]

ElitePinecone wrote...

To my mind most of the ideas designed to advertise the protagonist's sexuality (so that NPCs 'know how to react', and the game effectively filters certain romances without calling it a filter) unnecessarily complicate the situation and would - at first glance - need more time, effort and resources than just offering the player every option and allowing them to pick or reject what they want. 

It could probably work well in some future Bioware game, but I think it complicates what should be a fairly routine sidequest in ME3, without offering much more in the way of roleplaying or decisions. 

I would never agree with something artificial that changes how an NPC reacts to Shepard. It would have to be someting such as them having the knowledge of Shep's sexuality a priori, which means Shepard revealing it somehow. Not that I'm advocating some kind of coming out storyline, I have no interest in that when in my headcanon the universe is a far more liberal place when it comes to that sort of thing. I made it clear in my reply to Chun Hei that I don't want aspects of Shepard's character being used by the story to affect NPC behaviour, player choice should affect Shepard's character which dictates Shepard's action which then affect other characters. To simplify, I don't favour a filter which affects NPC behaviour. I have not particular issue with a filter that only affects Shepard's behaviour. If Numale Luvint happens to be the sort who throws appreciative glances the way of dudeShep then no choices I make as Shepard's player with regards to Shepard's character should change that aspect of Mr. Luvint's personality.

Of course, such things are non-trivial to implement. The simplest solution is to make all of it player-initiated as you've pointed out before. Certainly increasing the variety of dialogue options when het dudeShep turns down Numale's advances does not outweigh the complications inherent in the coding.

[Chun Hei]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I need bisexual Vega in my ME3. Bioware has kept so many sexy men out of my grasp... Kaidan, Thane, Jacob... Please please please let Vega fancy the menfolk...!

I cannot be excited about Vega until I see and hear him in action. I was really excited by the promos for Miranda until I played the game (I did not want to romance her though) and found out she really was not the alpha female bad ass I wanted her to be.

Still I think it is almost a given that he will be a s/s option. I would be SHOCKED if Kaidan and Joker are not as well.

[Chun Hei]

IsaacShep wrote...

BOOM!

Speaking from experience it is a lot more effective to be rubbing your man under his shirt AFTER you take your gloves off. You should definitely take them off before you reach down into his pants.

[Chun Hei]

Athayniel wrote...

Hmmm... no. I'll have to disagree there. Selecting your Shepard's orientation on a character screen would not be the same as the situations you described if the only thing it did was present different options in terms of Shepard's available dialogue and didn't affect the way the NPCs behaved towards Shepard. If all it did was allow femShep to flirt with Miranda but did not prevent Kaidan from telling her he thought she looked really good in green then it's not the same thing as what you've described. The key is that it affects only things Shepard can do, not what the NPCs can do. If such a thing were added to the game and the player had the ability to change it freely as many times as they wished I wouldn't say no to it.

But let me reiterate the important thing here, I'll even stress it for everyone's convenience. If such a mechanic changed the behaviour of any NPC, if unfamiliar with Shepard's orientation, but for whom it would ordinarily be in their character to flirt with someone of Shepard's gender, I would be livid. Incandescent with rage. I am all in favour of making choices about my character's behaviour, even if that choice *limits* the available options my character may have, but I would not countenance a choice I make about my character affecting the NPC's choices and behaviours in such a blatantly and artificially imposed way.

That sound like a whole lot of work to put that feature in AND make sure it does what you say. But I seriously doubt the critics will be happy unless a switch "takes the gay away" and the supporters and the players that do not give a damn do not need it.

[ElitePinecone]

Athayniel wrote...
Numale Luvint

Heh. Clever. 

Is there anybody who would want the option to declare Shepard's sexuality and have that act as a filter (even if it's not called that) for NPC advances, and who wants that above any other option, whose motivation isn't that they're uncomfortable with certain types of romances (s/s or otherwise) and they want to avoid them? 

In other words, given the choice between a dialogue option that shuts off some romances, and having romances initiated by the player but with the clear option there for all LIs, is there anyone that would choose the first for reasons of roleplaying?

Because if there isn't, I can't see the advantage in it, personally. I'd probably argue against it in the same way that I argue against a filter in the character creator: it seems needlessly complicated to design dialogue for each LI to state your preference through social cues (or to arrange scuttlebutt, or imply prior knowledge of Shepard's sexuality), when players who don't want particular romances can just not click the option to start them. 

Sacrificing NPC-initiated romances is a small price to pay, particularly when Bioware can still design a proactive or timid NPC that reacts strongly (or meekly, or whatever) once Shepard's initial interest is signalled. 

I mean, after the threshold is crossed by the player, they don't even need to worry about freaking out homophobes. If the romance entry dialogue is clear enough, they can't moan about being tricked into clicking it. The developers can chuck in all the excellent m/m and f/f dialogue that they want, 'behind' the wall of the initial advance by Shepard that the player is required to make if they want to pursue that option. 

[Abispa]

Don't forget that we've had critics that complain that even seeing a flirt dialog option pop up for a potential s/s romance is enough to ruin his (strange that it's usually a guy) immersion. Fenris doesn't make a first move on Hawke at all, but it was still called a ninjamance because a "heart" and "broken heart" option showed up in response to something he said.

Personally, I'm willing to concede that NO prior LI should make the first move on s/s Shepard in ME3, but that any new LIs (including old characters who are new LIs) should be able to hit on Shepard first IF THE WRITERS WANT HIM/HER TO.

[lazuli]

Abispa wrote...

Personally, I'm willing to concede that NO prior LI should make the first move on s/s Shepard in ME3, but that any new LIs (including old characters who are new LIs) should be able to hit on Shepard first IF THE WRITERS WANT HIM/HER TO.

Works for me.  No squadmates have been particularly aggressive in pursuing Shepard thus far.  Maybe some fresh faces will change that up.

[KawaiiKatie]

lazuli wrote...

No squadmates have been particularly aggressive in pursuing Shepard thus far.

Welllllllllll.... YMMV on that, really. Because Liara defaults to romance the moment Shepard speaks to her, and if Shepard male, Jack assumes that he want in her pants and Tali plays her coy game of, "Oh, how could I have POSSIBLY developed feelings for my big strong HERO?"

Personally, I wouldn't mind if any existing LI made the first move with same-sex Shepard, even though he/she showed no interest in Shepard in the past. I felt that it worked well enough for Garrus and Tali's sudden interest in cross-species sex. It would really just depend on how the writers pull it off, honestly.

[ADLegend21]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

lazuli wrote...

No squadmates have been particularly aggressive in pursuing Shepard thus far.

Welllllllllll.... YMMV on that, really. Because Liara defaults to romance the moment Shepard speaks to her, and if Shepard male, Jack assumes that he want in her pants and Tali plays her coy game of, "Oh, how could I have POSSIBLY developed feelings for my big strong HERO?"

Personally, I wouldn't mind if any existing LI made the first move with same-sex Shepard, even though he/she showed no interest in Shepard in the past. I felt that it worked well enough for Garrus and Tali's sudden interest in cross-species sex. It would really just depend on how the writers pull it off, honestly.

This. a squadmate, in the face of mortal peril, could be like "well I've been down on my luck in the romance department, maybe i coudl try hitting from teh other sid eof hte plate with Shepard before we kick it"

[FoxHound109]

IsaacShep wrote...

BOOM!