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♂♂ • ♀♀ For The Love — The Same-Sex Romance Discussion Thread **may contain spoilers**


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#12151
ElitePinecone

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Abispa wrote...

Personally, I'm willing to concede that NO prior LI should make the first move on s/s Shepard in ME3, but that any new LIs (including old characters who are new LIs) should be able to hit on Shepard first IF THE WRITERS WANT HIM/HER TO.


That's perfectly reasonable. 

There'd still be forum posts about how 'there's too much gay in the game', though. 

Given their statements already I would be surprised if Bioware had any LIs making an obvious first move. I can't blame them, and it's not really a big deal for me. 

#12152
ladyofpayne

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I'd like to romance KaiLeng. He is human. After I saw suggestion of hanar S|S I become a rasist. Humans are awesome!

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 04 novembre 2011 - 10:02 .


#12153
fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb

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Chun Hei wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

BOOM!

Image IPB


Speaking from experience it is a lot more effective to be rubbing your man under his shirt AFTER you take your gloves off. You should definitely take them off before you reach down into his pants.

He's just undoing Vega's manbra. Also tmi, lol.

#12154
Estelindis

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Chun Hei wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

All very well if that's what Bioware wants to do - but if, at some point, they find themselves wanting to have NPCs initiate romances, then I think using subtle cues would be the one good way of handling it.  Another would be selection of sexual preference during character creation.  But, in this respect, I'm talking more about future Bioware games after ME3, so I'd best leave it there and not stray too far from the topic.


As far as the game goes homosexuality and bisexuality are ways that the characters behave during the game. No other behavior is modified by character creation and it could insulting since there is no option to turn off a character's ability to steal, murder or torment the NPCs. That would be saying that being gay or bi in a video game is somehow worse than being a murderer or a thief even if you were not consciously thinking that.

I disagree completely.  One can select gender at character creation, but that doesn't mean one has to act in a stereotyped masculine or feminine way.  In most Bioware games, the most important thing it controls is who your character can romance.  An NPC may occasionally flirt with one's PC, or one may occasionally (but not so often that it proves tiresome) encounter prejudice against or for one's PC's gender, but that's about it.  I don't see how implementing the choice of sexual preference in a game would be remotely different: it would control who one could romance, though I think, given how many gay and bisexual people encounter prejudice in real life, it would be better if orientation-based prejudice wasn't included in the game at all.  One isn't going to be broadcasting one's sexual preference on all channels, so best if one's gender (which is rather more obvious) is the control for such things, if they're going to be in the game.

Anyway, even if we were going to assume that such a choice was about the PC's actions, rather than what romantic options with other characters are open one's PC, lots of other RPGs have choices at character creation that do enable or limit various PC behaviours as the game goes on.  Generate characters with different levels of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma in Planescape: Torment, for example, and see the varying conversation options that open up or are shut off.  Depending on the game, good/evil or lawful/chaotic character alignment would be another example.  So, while I don't think that selecting sexual orientation would be a choice of this kind, choices of this kind do exist in character creation in lots of games without being remotely insulting.  The idea that making option X, Y or Z available in character creation would mean that setting one's character to a certain value would be worse than murder or theft cannot be supported at any logical level, and was never thought by me in any way.  It was unfair to imply otherwise.

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2011 - 01:54 .


#12155
Athayniel

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Estelindis wrote...
The idea that making option X, Y or Z available in character creation would mean that setting one's character to a certain value would be worse than murder or theft cannot be supported at any logical level, and was never thought by me in any way.  It was unfair to imply otherwise.

Don't come down too harshly on Chun Hei. I'm sure she was just under the mistaken impression you were advocating for the rightly reviled "gay toggle". Pointing out that they are in fact two different things should be enough.

#12156
Guest_TheDaniellasaur_*

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My Paragon will always romance Kaidan. It just works well :)

#12157
Estelindis

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Athayniel wrote...

Don't come down too harshly on Chun Hei. I'm sure she was just under the mistaken impression you were advocating for the rightly reviled "gay toggle". Pointing out that they are in fact two different things should be enough.

I don't think I did come down too harshly, though of course she's free to disagree if she likes.  Thanks for putting it in context, though.  I wasn't aware that there was a big discussion about a "gay toggle," as I only dip in and out of this thread sporadically.  Incidentally, I think a good case against a "gay toggle" is that one would have to implement a "straight toggle" as well in order to be fair, and if the devs protest that the latter would be too much work... well, the same would be true of the former.  Case closed.  Though, if the devs said okay on both fronts, how would you feel then?

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:34 .


#12158
ElitePinecone

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Estelindis wrote...
Though, if the devs said okay on both fronts, how would you feel then?


We're dealing in hypotheticals - the devs have said that romances in ME3 will work exactly the same way as they always have in Bioware games. 

A 'gay toggle' isn't so much a toggle as it is setting the PC's orientation (either at character creation or in a conversation) and having that affect the dialogue and demeanour of NPCs and the romance options available. Even if toggle options could cover the range of possible sexualities and labels, I have a big problem with the player being forced to define the protagonist's orientation, if any, rather than making it implicit through their actions. 

The vast majority of people arguing for such an option, though, are doing so purely because they're uncomfortable with s/s content and wish to filter it from their game - that's my reading of the mood in some threads, at least. I don't think an option to declare the protagonist's sexuality at character creation would ever be implemented, given the potential for negative backlash. 

Given this, and given that a toggle would represent needless complexity for what is a relatively minor part of the game, I don't think it's necessary or at all likely. 

#12159
Estelindis

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ElitePinecone wrote...

I don't think an option to declare the protagonist's sexuality at character creation would ever be implemented, given the potential for negative backlash. 

What kind of negative backlash do you mean?

#12160
syllogi

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Estelindis wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Don't come down too harshly on Chun Hei. I'm sure she was just under the mistaken impression you were advocating for the rightly reviled "gay toggle". Pointing out that they are in fact two different things should be enough.

I don't think I did come down too harshly, though of course she's free to disagree if she likes.  Thanks for putting it in context, though.  I wasn't aware that there was a big discussion about a "gay toggle," as I only dip in and out of this thread sporadically.  Incidentally, I think a good case against a "gay toggle" is that one would have to implement a "straight toggle" as well in order to be fair, and if the devs protest that the latter would be too much work... well, the same would be true of the former.  Case closed.  Though, if the devs said okay on both fronts, how would you feel then?


I could see doing something like Fallout New Vegas, where you had to choose perks that gave you new dialogue choices for flirting...but I always wanted the choice to flirt with both males and female characters without losing two whole perks, and the conversation options those perks unlocked were just silly, much of the time, for both heterosexual and homosexual flirting.  

There's also something odd to me about picking and choosing what kind of dialogue you want in your game before you've even had a chance to experience it.  What's wrong with just not choosing a certain option, when it comes up ingame, or ignoring/turning down any unwanted flirts?

#12161
Estelindis

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TeenZombie wrote...

There's also something odd to me about picking and choosing what kind of dialogue you want in your game before you've even had a chance to experience it.  What's wrong with just not choosing a certain option, when it comes up ingame, or ignoring/turning down any unwanted flirts?

Indeed - well said.

Honestly, I think that one of the losses we've faced since Bioware games transitioned to Mass Effect-style dialogue is the loss of an easy way to choose how the player is feeling at any given time.  A friend of mine who wrote a NWN module series with a range of romantic options simply has a choice at a certain point to choose a non-dialogue line conveying the player's thoughts about a character: I feel attracted to him/her.  The character doesn't have to speak such feelings right away; it just describes the beginning of romantic feelings without going straight into a big declaration speech, or even beginning flirting.  I'm not sure how one would go about that in a game with a dialogue wheel.

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2011 - 03:03 .


#12162
ElitePinecone

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Estelindis wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

I don't think an option to declare the protagonist's sexuality at character creation would ever be implemented, given the potential for negative backlash. 

What kind of negative backlash do you mean?


Reading your post above: yes, picking a 'heterosexual' drop-down option at character creation is ostensibly similar to picking the character's gender, or species, or origin, or class, or assiging them attribute points that then unlock behaviours and conversations in-game. Functionally, a sexuality choice would work in much the same way as any of those other things. 

But nobody much out in the real world cares if you make your character with INT of 18 and they unlock a conversation because they're so smart. Equally, the fact that Shepards of different backgrounds get different quests doesn't cause any problems. We might have some issues with the way gender affects romance (insofar as it locks out some characters seemingly arbitrarily), but it's not a big deal in the realm of PR and public perceptions. 

A sexuality choice would be a huge deal. Indulging for a moment the idea that Bioware actually did it: an option to choose the player character's orientation, and have that affect gameplay in terms of romance options, would confirm every ludicrously ignorant and hyperbolic belief from a certain segment of the (largely American) media and public opinion: all the ranting about 'virtual orgasmic fantasies' that were falsely peddled around the time of the first Mass Effect would return tenfold. 

You'd have people enraged that their children could make 'a gay character', screaming and wailing from some fans about the option even being in there at all (a character creation option is far more noticable than a love interest, particularly when almost everybody who buys a game starts it, but only about half of those who bought ME2 ever finished it) and bitterness from people among the LGBTIQ (I don't know if there are more letters) community who feel their particular categorisation of sexuality was ignored or downplayed. How do you fit seven or eight categories of sexuality into the model? How is it coded? How do all those labels affect who can romance who? Isn't it just easier to let the character act reasonably freely, and the player can roleplay the assumed sexual label of their choice? 

Sexuality is a hot-button issue in the media and politics, I don't blame Bioware for trying to hose it down after the clusterfrak that was the conservative blogosphere's response to Mass Effect. Simply put: fairly or not, any attempt to give the player explicit control over labelling their player character's sexuality would cause immense public relations headaches for Bioware and EA, in my opinion, and thus it's not something I think they'd ever consider doing. 

To get just a taste of what the reaction might look like, here's a blog (and a parent's email) about SWTOR's decision to eventually introduce some form of s/s relationships:

http://bighollywood....-relationships/ 

Basically, a child can play a Han Solo-type character and your Companion, Chewie, will ask if you would like to engage in a homosexual relationship.

There is an actual option you are forced to choose about how to answer every time one of these “Companions” ask you if you’re interested in having a “gay relationship”. There has also been discussion that random NPCs will also be capable of asking players to consider engaging in a homosexual relationship.


It's easier to avoid the maelstrom. If it's this bad when players can't even create explicitly gay characters, I feel it'd be ten times worse if they could. The ability to actual concretely identify the PC as gay from character creation is pretty much unpredecented, and for good reason. 

#12163
Estelindis

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ElitePinecone wrote...

It's easier to avoid the maelstrom. If it's this bad when players can't even create explicitly gay characters, I feel it'd be ten times worse if they could. The ability to actual concretely identify the PC as gay from character creation is pretty much unpredecented, and for good reason. 

Well, I think that the difficulty of catering to all sexual identities is a good reason, but I don't think that catering to ignorance is.  On the other hand, ignoring ignorance doesn't make it go away.  :-/  It's a difficult situation and I thank you for highlighting the complexity of it.

#12164
ElitePinecone

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Estelindis wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

It's easier to avoid the maelstrom. If it's this bad when players can't even create explicitly gay characters, I feel it'd be ten times worse if they could. The ability to actual concretely identify the PC as gay from character creation is pretty much unpredecented, and for good reason. 

Well, I think that the difficulty of catering to all sexual identities is a good reason, but I don't think that catering to ignorance is.  On the other hand, ignoring ignorance doesn't make it go away.  :-/  It's a difficult situation and I thank you for highlighting the complexity of it.


That's not to say Bioware shouldn't bend in the gale of ignorance, to use an odd metaphor - I love the work that David Gaider, Chris Priestly and others do to smackdown people who complain about optional content for others, especially on the forums. 

But any modern business can't be a crusading force for social change (as much as I'm sure some would like it to be, within and outside), and while they don't necessarily accommodate bigots, they can't ignore it. The kerfuffle surrounding Mass Effect was ridiculous and stupid from the perspective of anyone with knowledge of the actual game, but some of the people who buy games for their children probably would've believed the sensationalism about it being an interactive sex simulator with aliens. If enough do, EA has to take notice - they can't rely on people not succumbing to crazy hyperbole. 

It's an incredibly messy and frustrating situation. I'd argue against a sexuality option purely because it'd be almost impossible to cater for every orientation (and code it so that dialogues worked properly), but I'm sure Bioware's executives would see the 'ignorant people bleating' backlash as more serious. 

If the point of a sexuality option at character creation is to allow for more roleplaying, it might just need to be one of those attributes that is implied in actions rather than stated in-game. That way people can think their Shepard is whichever category of sexuality they want (even the ones I've never heard of), conservative bigots can't get too angry and people who want s/s romances can pursue them. 

#12165
Estelindis

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ElitePinecone wrote...

If the point of a sexuality option at character creation is to allow for more roleplaying, it might just need to be one of those attributes that is implied in actions rather than stated in-game. That way people can think their Shepard is whichever category of sexuality they want (even the ones I've never heard of), conservative bigots can't get too angry and people who want s/s romances can pursue them. 

Okay, then; your argument is good and I agree.  I still think there needs to be a way of conveying intention or interior thought that works even better than the DA2 icons, though.

#12166
Maugrim

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There is also always one huge problem with a toggle that often gets ignored. It removes the possibility of having your characters sexuality change for whatever reason. Unless of course you made it something you could toggle on and off next to the subtitles in the options menu, which would be an even larger programming nightmare I imagine. Some people set up their character from the beginning but I've read stories of plenty of people who spontaneously decided to engage in a s/s romance usually with Isabela but also others part way through a playthrough with what was intended to be a straight character. And my lesbian Hawke's often, though not always, join Zevran and Isabela for that threesome.  How would a toggle handle that? It's just easier and wiser to keep rejections to a per character basis.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 04 novembre 2011 - 03:45 .


#12167
Athayniel

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makenzieshepard wrote...

There is also always one huge problem with a toggle that often gets ignored. It removes the possibility of having your characters sexuality change for whatever reason. Unless of course you made it something you could toggle on and off next to the subtitles in the options menu, which would be an even larger programming nightmare I imagine. Some people set up their character from the beginning but I've read stories of plenty of people who spontaneously decided to engage in a s/s romance usually with Isabela but also others part way through a playthrough with what was intended to be a straight character. And my lesbian Hawke's often, though not always, join Zevran and Isabela for that threesome.  How would a toggle handle that? It's just easier and wiser to keep rejections to a per character basis.

Which is why one of my caveats has always been that such a flag should be able to be changed whenever and however many times the player chooses. I don't call it a character creation option because I think it should be available for modification all the time.

#12168
jlb524

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Estelindis wrote...
Honestly, I think that one of the losses we've faced since Bioware games transitioned to Mass Effect-style dialogue is the loss of an easy way to choose how the player is feeling at any given time.  A friend of mine who wrote a NWN module series with a range of romantic options simply has a choice at a certain point to choose a non-dialogue line conveying the player's thoughts about a character: I feel attracted to him/her.  


BioWare-made romances in the vanilla game have never worked like that, though.  Nothing has been lost.

Estelindis wrote...
The character doesn't have to speak such feelings right away; it just describes the beginning of romantic feelings without going straight into a big declaration speech, or even beginning flirting.  I'm not sure how one would go about that in a game with a dialogue wheel.


They can easily do that with the dialog wheel. I think they kind of did in DA2 with the heart options on the wheel.  In my experience, not all heart-labeled options are necessarily flirty but selecting them shows interest as far as the game is concerned.

So, they can associate romantically neutral dialog with this heart icon that effectively sets a flag and the game willl know your intent with the LI and can adjust future dialog accordingly without the PC having to openly flirt or declare feelings.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:36 .


#12169
Estelindis

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jlb524 wrote...

BioWare-made romances in the vanilla game have never worked like that, though.  Nothing has been lost.

I'm saying that the potential to do things this way has been lost.  Pre-dialogue wheel, a developer could write the character's thoughts and feelings as a possible "dialogue" choice if s/he wished.

jlb524 wrote...
They can easily do that with the dialog wheel. I think they kind of did in DA2 with the heart options on the wheel.  In my experience, not all heart-labeled options are necessarily flirty but selecting them shows interest as far as the game is concerned.

So, they can associate romantically neutral dialog with this heart icon that effectively sets a flag and the game willl know your intent with the LI and can adjust future dialog accordingly without the PC having to openly flirt or declare feelings.

Yes, it's possible to do things this way, and I'm glad for it.  At the same time, I think that the actual implementation has to be improved.  Even with the tone/intention icons in DA2, there were still quite a few times when my Hawke didn't say the kind of thing I'd meant her to say.

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2011 - 05:07 .


#12170
Quething

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makenzieshepard wrote...
And my lesbian Hawke's often, though not always, join Zevran and Isabela for that threesome.


Haha, really? Mine always either object or quietly sulk.

You know, I was about to say "yeah, no menu option for sexuality at any point ever, period," but it strikes me that that could actually be fairly useful so long as BioWare persists in making characters act without player input. I would much rather have a dialog wheel when Isabela flirts with me after killing Hayder; mainHawke wanted to very plainly say "yes please" not smirk faintly and wait three damn years, dudeHawke wanted to very plainly laugh and say "sorry, I'm into broody elf boys," not smirk faintly like he was actually interested. The involuntary "smirk faintly" sucks for everyone.

BUT since they're so very fond of it and it's not going away, at least a menu option would let us choose whether we smirk faintly at Shiala (still OOC for my lesbian mainShep, but better than for my dudeShep) or... idk, Gavorn.

It'd be more organic to do it the way most involuntary acting is done in DA2 - through a hidden character trait determined by the player's actions - but that of course carries with it all the foibles of the DA2 personality system, namely "flirty but monagamous bisexual with a current LI" or other similarly nuanced characters would be too complex for the system to accurately handle based on the minimal available input.

Modifié par Quething, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:22 .


#12171
Abispa

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Estelindis wrote...

Yes, it's possible to do things this way, and I'm glad for it.  At the same time, I think that the actual implementation has to be improved.  Even with the tone/intention icons in DA2, there were still quite a few times when my Hawke didn't say the kind of thing I'd meant her to say.


I don't know how Bioware can ever come up with a dialog wheel that accounts for every individual's assumptions on what's going to be said. There were a few times that I chose a "humorous" dialog and got something in horribly bad taste that weren't even remotely clever (joking about the dead women with Emeric or "accusing" Merathari of hitting on you before going into the fade).

One could say go back to the DA:O system, but I'm sure VA is here to stay. And even when you chose a specific line to "speak" in DA:O, the NPCs reactions were exactly the same about 70% of the time (or so it seemed to me).

#12172
Abispa

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Actually, to the hackers and mod experts out there, I heard that Zevran will tell Isabela, "Not this time, I'm still in love with the Warden," if she tries to make a move on a him if you imported a DA:O save with a Zevran LI. Both of us have tried a couple of times, but we always get the same promiscuous man-****. Was this changed and left "hidden" somewhere in the game, or there a bug?

#12173
Ryzaki

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Abispa wrote...

Actually, to the hackers and mod experts out there, I heard that Zevran will tell Isabela, "Not this time, I'm still in love with the Warden," if she tries to make a move on a him if you imported a DA:O save with a Zevran LI. Both of us have tried a couple of times, but we always get the same promiscuous man-****. Was this changed and left "hidden" somewhere in the game, or there a bug?


Bugged. 

#12174
slimgrin

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fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...


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I've been banned for posting tamer stuff.

#12175
Quething

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Abispa wrote...
One could say go back to the DA:O system, but I'm sure VA is here to stay. And even when you chose a specific line to "speak" in DA:O, the NPCs reactions were exactly the same about 70% of the time (or so it seemed to me).


I can't speak to the accuracy of that 70% figure, but yes, it's certainly something quite high. Back when I was doing a bit of KotOR modding it took me about two days to put together a single well-written, coherent dialog file that fit with the rest of the game and didn't feel too short, too long, too repetitive or too linear. If I sat down to write one conversation file between Fenris and Hawke it'd take me an hour. There's a lot less content now in terms of word volume and thus it's a lot less responsive to variation.

Of course if you'd voiced the protag in KotOR that one conversation I wrote would have meant another week in the studio and another half gig of mem on the disk and I don't even want to think about how many more hours for the programmers, so it would simply be a waste of resources in the current voiced-protag climate. (Even voiced NPCs made it a hassle; BioWare did a lot of cheating in KotOR and Jade Empire with NPCs who used nonsense languages, which cut the workload probably by a third to a half. I'm still baffled by the amount of flexibility that made it into Origins given the restrictions.

As for Zev: he's double-bugged. The import function is bugged in post-Origins saves; Awakening/Witch Hunt/etc didn't save the approval data, just the romance flags, and DA2 checks for both. So if you import a Witch Hunt save with a romanced Zev, DA2 will go "oh, his approval is zero? He's not in love, he's free to sleep around."

You can download a mod that will fix that, though I seem to have lost the link at the moment.

Unfortunately, Zev's dialog itself is also bugged. So even if he does know he's in love, if he does, he always thinks the Warden's dead, and will give you his "in love with dead Warden" dialog. BioWare has expressed no intention to or interest in fixing this, and without a toolset we can't either. <_<

Modifié par Quething, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:58 .