25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

@bleetman: I encourage supporters to be as civil as possible in this thread, we don't always have to agree, but we should always do so in a manner that is not offensive. I think words like "pandering", "ignorant" and such should be avoided in general.

@everyone: Of course, there are a lot of words I think we should avoid, because they are known to derail discussion quite a bit. Chris Priestly's warning about the "h" word, while perplexing given the tone of this thread, is still good advice. And when in doubt: Do Not Engage.

[jlb524]

Aurellia wrote...

To exaggerate a bit,  It isn't any more fair to make every male LI a "teaching moment" for heterosexual men by making them bisexual and requiring male players confront whatever whatever issues they may have with learning their best friend is BI, than it is to say GLBT players should just experience a world that has only discount lesbians (Liara) and token same sex love interests.  This also goes for female players but in my observations of people learning their best friend is bi it tends to be much more of an issue for males.

I don't think BW is doing this to provide a "teaching moment"...I think it's more along the lines of giving gay male PCs romance options that will forever remain optional and avoidable for straight male PCs.

[Aurellia]

bleetman wrote...

I have no real interest in pandering to the whims of the ignorant. I'm just a bit of a dick like that.

Sorry again for being a bit off topic.

This is not about pandering to the ignorant.  Sometimes the best path to education is through a gentle approach.  There is still same sex romance and in my proposal there are 2-3 male to male opportunities that still act as "teaching moments" to help them overcome their fears.

In real life, when I have dealt with homophobic family and relatives I found that true bridging comes from showing respect (not agreement or pandering) to their point of view.  In my case I had a fundamentalist brother in law who started out 3-4 years ago with stuff like "I'm a Christian and I don't want to see you and my sister showing gheyness in front of my kids" to basically seeing me as a member of the family and welcoming me to share the passing of my partner and his father this past February:(  We have developed a high level of comfort and mutual respect and sense of family even though there are rare points of discomfort.

If we want to teach others to show us compassion, a little compassion from our side can make a huge difference.

Modifié par Aurellia, 16 juin 2011 - 06:23 .

[shepskisaac]

Siansonea II wrote...
I see what you're saying. Don't you agree that having Shepard select the option to pursue the dialog as sufficient? By simply not selecting that option, the player in question doesn't even have to think about it. It's just one of a series of never-explored dialogue trees. For me, that's sufficient, and anything more involved than that seems disproportionate to me. That's my take anyway. By the same token, though, I'm not opposed to Anders-style "please love meh ManShep!" from an NPC, because it's a pretty simple matter for the player to say "how about no". Again, that's just my opinion. 

Exactly. Having ManShep select an explict "I'm gay gay gay!" option that would result in Kaidan's "Didn't know that! In that case..." and the romance starts is absolutely enough. That's already more than it should be really, as IMO it's just nonsense that we need to submit to straight males irrational fears and thus cannot have a male NPC declare feelings to ManShep on his own (without the players making forst move). But I'm willing to "submit"  in this case (ninjamancing) but absolutely nothing more since anything more will be a content they won't even use.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 16 juin 2011 - 06:16 .

[Aurellia]

To bring this a bit more on topic I'm going to put a copy of my post here so you can see it in context. I think you'll see if you read it that this gives same sex players a pretty awesome experience and at the same time allows those uncomfortable room to enjoy the game their way as well:

==== begin quoted text ====


I posed this in the other thread but I think it may be a good point for compromise/consensus for various sides of this debate:

---- quoted text ----

I think we can agree on the following

- no ninjamances
- whatever ss relationships that are in game should be high quality writing and NOT an asspull for the character if it is an existing character.

Now this said, I am going to come out and say I want well written same sex options with characters from the previous games. I would like the option to roleplay through the first two games as FemShepard longing for Tali or Ashley, which I have felt both while playing ME1 and ME2 and being frustrated that they are not available. It would be very rewarding/satisfying to have this come to fruition in the third game if it is well written.

Throwing me a token new SS romance that doesn't have a significant (eg squadmate) past with me won't cut it. I want this relationship even if it becomes romantic in the third game to have its roots in the previous games through an extended friendship. This makes the romance an integral part to the climax of the trilogy.

This also is how I've seen relationships in real life work. Sometimes it happens right away in other cases you can have people that are sure they are friends for 10 years suddenly realize how much they really love one another. The latter is actually what happened in my life.

As a female I want Ashely and Tali. For MaleShep I want at least Kaiden. Since I am not male it is hard for me to think of another suitable male past squadie, There seems to be a lot of support for Joker among the men wanting SS content. Joker works well because he is almost a squad-mate and has a long past with Shepard and it would be an interesting story. So let's say Kaiden and Joker (and maybe add a fling with Conrad Verner for comic relief to counter balance the Kelly romance:)

---- end quoted text ----

Now of course I'm coming from a pro-SS point of view but I think this approach would both make pro-SS happy while minimizing impact to those who want to avoid SS or wish to keep their conceptions of other LI characters intact.

I can understand why a someone who is not comfortable with homosexuality may be uncomfortable with knowing that someone they are roleplaying as their best friend (bro-mance) is bisexual. Due to our current state of society this can change the dynamics between two same sex friends and make things feel uncomfortable. I respect these folks desire to play the game the way they want in terms of their friendships with other same sex characters. Hopefully my proposal helps meet this goal while providing a deep and meaningful trilogy experience for those of us who do want SS romances.

Here are the advantages
- Doesn't make all LIs SS, rather it makes only 2 of them SS (VS and Tali)
- Leaves 3/4 male LIs available for hetero-straight bro-mances.
- Ashely and Kaiden were originally intended to be SS so they have the least character continuity issues, IMHO.
- I doubt there are a ton of men who will be bro-mancing Kaiden, or Joker (I could be wrong:)
- Tali already shows admiration in ME2 that as a bi-sexual in real life I easily interpreted as romantic tension
- Brings the same sex options almost in line with opposite sex options (femshep 3 SS+kelly/ 4 OS, maleshep 2 SS + conrad/ 4 OS)
- They give SS players a trilogy based SS love arc that culminates in blossoming of love in act 3

The folks on the SS thread generally agreed if they got this they'd be damn happy.

If this was well written and no ninja-mancing then couldn't this work for the rest of you as well?

[bleetman]

I only intended to be offensive towards myself, really. My apologies.

What I'd rather not see, however, is it being watered down or cut out in order to appease people who are apparently made uncomfortable by one character or another being bi-sexuality available for other players in other completely separate playthroughs. That's not common ground, nor is it absolutely everyone who is against (or not supportive) same-sex romances.

I'm not saying 'just bung s/s in, and everyone who doesn't like it can deal with it'. Obviously, I'd much prefer it if everyone was happy. But seeing as that's just not possible, I'll settle for ignoring the fringes.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 juin 2011 - 06:28 .

[The Uncanny]

Aurellia wrote...

If this was well written and no ninja-mancing then couldn't this work for the rest of you as well?

I appreciate the effort you have put into this and your sincerity. But that wouldn't work for me to be honest.

[Siansonea]

Aurellia wrote...

bleetman wrote...

I have no real interest in pandering to the whims of the ignorant. I'm just a bit of a dick like that.

Sorry again for being a bit off topic.

This is not about pandering to the ignorant.  Sometimes the best path to education is through a gentle approach.  There is still same sex romance and in my proposal there are 2-3 male to male opportunities that still act as "teaching moments" to help them overcome their fears.

In real life, when I have dealt with homophobic family and relatives I found that true bridging comes from showing respect (not agreement or pandering) to their point of view.  In my case I had a fundamentalist brother in law who started with stuff like "I'm a Christian and I don't want to see you and my sister showing gheyness in front of my kids" to basically seeing me as a member of the family and welcoming me to share the passing of my partner and his father this past February:(

If we want to teach others to show us compassion, a little compassion from our side can make a huge difference.

That's a very touching personal story. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I don't think anyone learns anything by being beat over the head, except maybe further resentment. You don't change hearts and minds that way, and some people's mind can't be changed in the first place. Best to let people find their own way, or not at all. It's not my problem anyhow.

More on topic, I do still think that having Shepard initiate the dialog tree that opens up the same-sex relationship path is a perfectly appropriate solution, especially if the guide text is very clear that Shepard is flirting. Anything more actually draws too much attention to it, in my opinion, which is kind of the objection from the other side in the first place unless I miss my guess.

And it's availability in the game allows the player to come back to it at a later time if they so choose. People do sometimes change their attitudes about stuff.

[Siansonea]

Aurellia wrote...

To bring this a bit more on topic I'm going to put a copy of my post here so you can see it in context. I think you'll see if you read it that this gives same sex players a pretty awesome experience and at the same time allows those uncomfortable room to enjoy the game their way as well:

==== begin quoted text ====


I posed this in the other thread but I think it may be a good point for compromise/consensus for various sides of this debate:

---- quoted text ----

I think we can agree on the following

- no ninjamances
- whatever ss relationships that are in game should be high quality writing and NOT an asspull for the character if it is an existing character.

Now this said, I am going to come out and say I want well written same sex options with characters from the previous games. I would like the option to roleplay through the first two games as FemShepard longing for Tali or Ashley, which I have felt both while playing ME1 and ME2 and being frustrated that they are not available. It would be very rewarding/satisfying to have this come to fruition in the third game if it is well written.

Throwing me a token new SS romance that doesn't have a significant (eg squadmate) past with me won't cut it. I want this relationship even if it becomes romantic in the third game to have its roots in the previous games through an extended friendship. This makes the romance an integral part to the climax of the trilogy.

This also is how I've seen relationships in real life work. Sometimes it happens right away in other cases you can have people that are sure they are friends for 10 years suddenly realize how much they really love one another. The latter is actually what happened in my life.

As a female I want Ashely and Tali. For MaleShep I want at least Kaiden. Since I am not male it is hard for me to think of another suitable male past squadie, There seems to be a lot of support for Joker among the men wanting SS content. Joker works well because he is almost a squad-mate and has a long past with Shepard and it would be an interesting story. So let's say Kaiden and Joker (and maybe add a fling with Conrad Verner for comic relief to counter balance the Kelly romance:)

---- end quoted text ----

Now of course I'm coming from a pro-SS point of view but I think this approach would both make pro-SS happy while minimizing impact to those who want to avoid SS or wish to keep their conceptions of other LI characters intact.

I can understand why a someone who is not comfortable with homosexuality may be uncomfortable with knowing that someone they are roleplaying as their best friend (bro-mance) is bisexual. Due to our current state of society this can change the dynamics between two same sex friends and make things feel uncomfortable. I respect these folks desire to play the game the way they want in terms of their friendships with other same sex characters. Hopefully my proposal helps meet this goal while providing a deep and meaningful trilogy experience for those of us who do want SS romances.

Here are the advantages
- Doesn't make all LIs SS, rather it makes only 2 of them SS (VS and Tali)
- Leaves 3/4 male LIs available for hetero-straight bro-mances.
- Ashely and Kaiden were originally intended to be SS so they have the least character continuity issues, IMHO.
- I doubt there are a ton of men who will be bro-mancing Kaiden, or Joker (I could be wrong:)
- Tali already shows admiration in ME2 that as a bi-sexual in real life I easily interpreted as romantic tension
- Brings the same sex options almost in line with opposite sex options (femshep 3 SS+kelly/ 4 OS, maleshep 2 SS + conrad/ 4 OS)
- They give SS players a trilogy based SS love arc that culminates in blossoming of love in act 3

The folks on the SS thread generally agreed if they got this they'd be damn happy.

If this was well written and no ninja-mancing then couldn't this work for the rest of you as well?

You'll find a lot of people here have similar views about the subject, but they'll have different names for the LI of choice for s/s. For me personally, I wouldn't mind having any of them be s/s, though I tend to gravitate toward Kaidan and Miranda as my preferred s/s candidates. As for how to deal with those who are uncomfortable with the options, simply allowing them to avoid those options through dialog seems sufficient. That's part of the "no ninjamancing" thing as well.

[Aurellia]

bleetman wrote...

I only intended to be offensive towards myself, really. My apologies.

What I'd rather not see, however, is it being watered down or cut out in order to appease people who are apparently made uncomfortable by one character or another being bi-sexuality available for other players in other completely separate playthroughs. That's not common ground.

I think my approach does anything but give us a watered down experience.  I want the ability to roleplay a beautiful romance that has is seeds in ME1 and develops into something awesome when it comes to fruition in ME3.  If you read my long proposal and reasoning I think you will see that is the case.

I think rather than making all LIs bisexual pick 2 for women and 2 for men and write beautiful stories that we can get into and enjoy the climax of the game with.

I am the one saying that giving some new character that is there just to add SS content would be a copout and would cheapen the experience.  I as FemShep want Ashley and Tali.  I'd love Miranda too but I'd rather have two well written than more half assed written.  As MaleShep I want Mr "Losing you was like losing a limb" Allenko and and Joker who has been with me since the beginning and would be a really sweet and sensitive story kind of in the same vein as Tali.  And Shepard and Conrad as an easter egg could be awesome. 

Just picture MaleShep standing over Conrad with a leash in one hand and a whip in the other.  Oh Snap! that won't happen but you get the idea.

[AngelicMachinery]

Aurellia wrote...


To exaggerate a bit,  It isn't any more fair to make every male LI a "teaching moment" for heterosexual men by making them bisexual and requiring male players confront whatever whatever issues they may have with learning their best friend is BI, than it is to say GLBT players should just experience a world that has only discount lesbians (Liara) and token same sex love interests.  This also goes for female players but in my observations of people learning their best friend is bi it tends to be much more of an issue for males.

I hope others here can join me in trying to find a common ground with other players and we can leave the nuts/trolls on both sides as fodder for the mods:)

No,  seriously,  just no.  If you want the "Gay Agenda" **** storm to roll through bioware again this is just a bad idea.  I know your trying to help and lessen the divide between two groups which really shouldn't be divided in the first place.  the thing is though,  people won't learn how to be sympathetic from a game and truthfully it'll just end up making the game look preachy.  Sure,  there are places to be preachy and I'm a rather vocal member of community...  but,  people don't want a soap box in their entertainment.  They want to sit around,  shoot some husks,  seduce the person of their choice (of any gender that they please), and hopefully come out on top with a happy ending.

I also despise the term "Discount Lesbian."  It just seems horribly judgemental.

[MACharlie1]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Aurellia wrote...


To exaggerate a bit,  It isn't any more fair to make every male LI a "teaching moment" for heterosexual men by making them bisexual and requiring male players confront whatever whatever issues they may have with learning their best friend is BI, than it is to say GLBT players should just experience a world that has only discount lesbians (Liara) and token same sex love interests.  This also goes for female players but in my observations of people learning their best friend is bi it tends to be much more of an issue for males.

I hope others here can join me in trying to find a common ground with other players and we can leave the nuts/trolls on both sides as fodder for the mods:)

No,  seriously,  just no.  If you want the "Gay Agenda" **** storm to roll through bioware again this is just a bad idea.  I know your trying to help and lessen the divide between two groups which really shouldn't be divided in the first place.  the thing is though,  people won't learn how to be sympathetic from a game and truthfully it'll just end up making the game look preachy.  Sure,  there are places to be preachy and I'm a rather vocal member of community...  but,  people don't want a soap box in their entertainment.  They want to sit around,  shoot some husks,  seduce the person of their choice (of any gender that they please), and hopefully come out on top with a happy ending.

I also despise the term "Discount Lesbian."  It just seems horribly judgemental.

Heh...come out on top. 

Back on topic please...

[Siansonea]

To be clear, I think the percentage of players who are advocating an all-bisexual squad of existing characters is quite small. Most people are fine with either all-new characters or one or two existing LIs being expanded for s/s romance.

[Aurellia]

Siansonea II wrote...
You'll find a lot of people here have similar views about the subject, but they'll have different names for the LI of choice for s/s. For me personally, I wouldn't mind having any of them be s/s, though I tend to gravitate toward Kaidan and Miranda as my preferred s/s candidates. As for how to deal with those who are uncomfortable with the options, simply allowing them to avoid those options through dialog seems sufficient. That's part of the "no ninjamancing" thing as well.

In my mind the specifics of which characters doesn't matter as much.  I ran this list by this thread 20 or so pages back and it seemed to resonate.  But whatever they are I'd like to see 2 male SS and 2 female SS added to existing characters that are deep and meaningful and give us the full trilogy experience.

I agree with you that allowing them to avoid the options in dialog is enough.

If it was just me, I'd love all the LIs to be available to all players with awesome writing.  I just don't think this is practical nor necessary.  I think adding 2+easter egg for male gives us a nice parity with what the OS players already get.

Maybe add one more MM if you really want but again I want quality over quantity.

If we get this when it can be win win for both "our side" and "their side":)

[jlb524]

Aurellia wrote...

If this was well written and no ninja-mancing then couldn't this work for the rest of you as well?

Well, I notice that you list Tali and Ashley as your fave female characters/preferred LIs, and then list them as the only two f/f LIs in your compromise.  The only thing is that some others don't like either of them and prefer Miranda, or Jack.

People will always want their preferred LI to be available and the only solution to make this crowd 100% happy is to make them all available for s/s romance.

On the other hand, some fans that did the o/s romances are fine with previous LIs becoming a bi-mance as long as it's not their fave LI.

[Siansonea]

Yeah, I think people are more on the same page than they think. Nobody wants poor writing or ninjamancing, and most of us don't care if options exist that we don't particularly want, only that the ones we DO want are available. Extra content sure doesn't affect my game, and if it means that somebody else bought the game just to have it, well, that's good for the game, I say.

[Maugrim]

Siansonea II wrote...

To be clear, I think the percentage of players who are advocating an all-bisexual squad of existing characters is quite small. Most people are fine with either all-new characters or one or two existing LIs being expanded for s/s romance.

And some of us who think that all romances should be open to both genders don't give two figs about whether the LI's are gay, bi or straight because sexuality has no bearing on personality and romances are such a relatively small factor of the game given there zot use that is it financially unsound and otherwise ridiculous to have a gender check on them. 

Me personally I could not care less if they included M/M romances.  If I did ever have a M/M playthrough it would be after 5-6 f/f or f/m ones at best and I would not miss it at all if it was left out.  So why do I advocate for it?  So other people can enjoy.  It ruins nothing for me so why the hell not.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 16 juin 2011 - 06:44 .

[bleetman]

Aurellia wrote...

I think my approach does anything but give us a watered down experience.  I want the ability to roleplay a beautiful romance that has is seeds in ME1 and develops into something awesome when it comes to fruition in ME3.  If you read my long proposal and reasoning I think you will see that is the case.

Oh, there I go again. I should come with a government warning label. Let me try this again.

I like your ideas! I read through them in t'other thread, too. They're good ideas. For me, though, I'm just not all that interest to try and reach a compromise with the apparently uncompromisable. Folk who argue that the possibility of a same sex romance being added (but otherwise not happening or even being overtly visibile in their playthrough) makes them just too uncomfortable to bear are only going to be sated by scrapping them entirely. I'm talking about people who ask for a gay toggle, here. I've as little interest in appeasing them as they apparently have of appeasing us. I'm also a stubborn dick.

[Siansonea]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

To be clear, I think the percentage of players who are advocating an all-bisexual squad of existing characters is quite small. Most people are fine with either all-new characters or one or two existing LIs being expanded for s/s romance.

And some of us who think that all romances should be open to both genders don't give two figs about whether the LI's are gay, bi or straight because sexuality has no bearing on personality and romances are such a relatively small factor of the game given there zot use that is it financially unsound and otherwise ridiculous to have a gender check on them.  Also we aren't selfish jackasses.

Me personally I could not care less if they included M/M romances.  If I did ever have a M/M playthrough it would be 5-6 at best and I would not miss it at all if it was left out.  So why do I advocate for it?  So other people can enjoy it, it ruins nothing for me so why the hell not.

I hope no one around here calls you a selfish jackass Makenzie. I'll give 'em what for if they do.  This is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint to have as well, we're all allowed to express our preferred method of implementation, and no one should ever feel attacked in this thread just because they favor one idea over another. We all are happy about inclusion, and now we're just spitballing ideas, and BioWare can either use them or not, at their discretion. I'm pretty easy to please, personally, I already have Liara for my lesbian FemShep, and as long as my gay ManShep gets a human male LI in ME3, I'll be satisfied (unless for some reason the writing is awful). But others have much more specific tastes and desires, and they should all be discussed freely and respectfully around here.

[Rinji the Bearded]

jlb524 wrote...

On the other hand, some fans that did the o/s romances are fine with previous LIs becoming a bi-mance as long as it's not their fave LI.

I never got that logic.  It's not like their favorite LI will suddenly start oggling others or anything.

[Aurellia]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

No,  seriously,  just no.  If you want the "Gay Agenda" **** storm to roll through bioware again this is just a bad idea.  I know your trying to help and lessen the divide between two groups which really shouldn't be divided in the first place.  the thing is though,  people won't learn how to be sympathetic from a game and truthfully it'll just end up making the game look preachy.  Sure,  there are places to be preachy and I'm a rather vocal member of community...  but,  people don't want a soap box in their entertainment.  They want to sit around,  shoot some husks,  seduce the person of their choice (of any gender that they please), and hopefully come out on top with a happy ending.

I also despise the term "Discount Lesbian."  It just seems horribly judgemental.

I'm not saying make it preachy.  I'm saying give us awesome well written trilogy spanning romances for 2 MM and 2 FF.  The presence of those romances will provide enough of a teaching moment for those who wish to experience it.  No soap box, just quality entertainment.

I'm just saying that to get this give a little.  Don't insist that all LIs be bisexual, that seems to be the biggest fear of the other side.  I don't think we want that anyway as it would water down resources (ie the same effort spent on 4 romances vs 8 will mean that the 8 have half the content.)

I think there is room for a win win here.

As for discount lesbian, as a lesbian myself i don't find it offensive.  It's a trope from the tropes site:

http://tvtropes.org/...iscountLesbians

I loved the Liara romance but Bioware went to great lengths to try to turn her into a discount lesbian by stupid attempts to claim the relationship wasn't "really" same sex because the Asari are mono gendered.  That pissed me off to no end.  But as a feminist there are aspects of the Liara romance that bugged me in that having her having significant T&A and pandering to the male watching two cute lesbians mindset.

I want woman on woman action that more reflects real lesbian relationships.  Liara alone just feels like a bit of a cop out.

[AngelicMachinery]

RinjiRenee wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

On the other hand, some fans that did the o/s romances are fine with previous LIs becoming a bi-mance as long as it's not their fave LI.

I never got that logic.  It's not like their favorite LI will suddenly start oggling others or anything.

What're ya talking about...? As soon as it was suggested that ME was going to contain gay romance I booted up ME2 and found Tali oggling Miranda when she thought no one was looking...

[Siansonea]

bleetman wrote...

Aurellia wrote...

I think my approach does anything but give us a watered down experience.  I want the ability to roleplay a beautiful romance that has is seeds in ME1 and develops into something awesome when it comes to fruition in ME3.  If you read my long proposal and reasoning I think you will see that is the case.

Oh, there I go again. I should come with a government warning label. Let me try this again.

I like your ideas! I read through them in t'other thread, too. They're good ideas. For me, though, I'm just not all that interest to try and reach a compromise with the apparently uncompromisable. Folk who argue that the possibility of a same sex romance being added (but otherwise not happening or even being overtly visibile in their playthrough) makes them just too uncomfortable to bear are only going to be sated by scrapping them entirely. I'm talking about people who ask for a gay toggle, here. I've as little interest in appeasing them as they apparently have of appeasing us. I'm also a stubborn dick.

I think you two don't disagree as much as you think either. I don't think anyone here is advocating the Gay Toggle idea, but if anyone ever does—please discuss it rationally and dispassionately. It is related to the implementation topic, unfortunately, but theoretically anyone who is posting in this thread is a supporter of the inclusion (as per Chris Priestly's forum guidelines) and not an adversary, merely a person with a different opinion who should be treated fairly.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 16 juin 2011 - 06:49 .

[The Uncanny]

jlb524 wrote...

People will always want their preferred LI to be available and the only solution to make this crowd 100% happy is to make them all available for s/s romance.

This is relevant to my interests. 

[Siansonea]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

On the other hand, some fans that did the o/s romances are fine with previous LIs becoming a bi-mance as long as it's not their fave LI.

I never got that logic.  It's not like their favorite LI will suddenly start oggling others or anything.

What're ya talking about...? As soon as it was suggested that ME was going to contain gay romance I booted up ME2 and found Tali oggling Miranda when she thought no one was looking...

OMG, you saw that too? I knew that her anti-Cerberus stuff was just a smokescreen...