25715 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

There's a difference between what always was, and changes due to player actions. Virmire is the latter, you left one of the VS, they died, simple, no butterfly effect even involved. Now unless you're claiming Shepard got Kaidan interested in men or femshep turned him gay(god forbid), the sexual orientation of a character is the former, not the latter.

What character has definitely and absolutely stated their sexual orientation?  I was responding to the idea that characters are shaped by interaction with the player character, and while I'd rather that bisexual characters be written as having a set past of relationships that they can talk about no matter what gender of player character they're romancing, I don't see a problem with the idea that the PC shapes the world of the NPCs in the game.  I'm talking more in hypotheticals, and I don't necessarily want to see that in ME3, but it's a game, not a set story we're passively taking in.

jeweledleah wrote...

that's not the way I see it, personally. if you know someone who is bisexual for example but you remain platonic friends. does it change their sexual orientation just because you are not romantically involved?

you are not changing npc's you are only changing your relationship with npc's.

But again, this isn't real life.  If I never choose Garrus as an LI, he'll never be interested in relationship with Shepard.  It doesn't change who Garrus is, but the option of romance is there.  His personality isn't different outside of the romance related scenes, and I'm not missing content.  But for those who want Garrus, there he is.  What does it matter if the Shepard who romances him is male?  Garrus is the same character, either way.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah it's like she did that just to be contrary.

I get the feeling it's more the game doing that though. I did the renegade just for kicks and it was painful watching Shepard force her. In my headcanon she definitely wouldn't have killed him either way.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Ryzaki]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah it's like she did that just to be contrary.

I get the feeling it's more the game doing that though. I did the renegade just for kicks and it was painful watching Shepard force her. In my headcanon she definitely wouldn't have killed him either way.

It doesn't help that Shep's line is "you're a killer Jack, that's what you do." I half expected the star wars sith music to start blaring in the background.

[slimgrin]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Another weird example is how Jack either refuses to kill that bloke or insists on it depending on what you choose. Either that or she's just a stubborn b*tch,

It was there to give the gamer a hard on...you control her. Bull****. This is an example of Bioware playing fast and loose with role playing concepts. So is the magical sexuality button that Shepard now possesses.

[jeweledleah]

Teen - the fact that Garrus is the same character is the whole point that I'm trying to make. when you chose to romance him, you are not changing who he is, you are not toggling anything, you are simply changing the dynamic of your interaction.

now that doesn't stop people who would rather pretend that the characters are straight, or gay, or whatever else from doing so. its their prerogative. however, if the character is available to both genders? regardless of whether you chose to romance them or not - they are bisexual. by choosing not to romance them - you didn't turn them asexual. they are still the same character, its only your relationship with them that's different.

its a minor difference, but to me its a crucial one.

edited - Jack DID do that just to be contrary.  she wasn't written to be particularely agreeable.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:15 .

[Ryzaki]

@slim: They've been doing that since BALDUR'S GATE 2 (probably even since BG but I'm only halfway through the first) so if you really think this is some new concept

If you're playing a BW game you almost ALWAYS have some control over what the NPCs do. Not alot but some. And hell yeah you can stop them/egg them on when it comes to killing someone. Even if they turn on you later. (hi there Amoenen...or whatever your name is spelled).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:17 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

TeenZombie wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

There's a difference between what always was, and changes due to player actions. Virmire is the latter, you left one of the VS, they died, simple, no butterfly effect even involved. Now unless you're claiming Shepard got Kaidan interested in men or femshep turned him gay(god forbid), the sexual orientation of a character is the former, not the latter.

What character has definitely and absolutely stated their sexual orientation?  I was responding to the idea that characters are shaped by interaction with the player character, and while I'd rather that bisexual characters be written as having a set past of relationships that they can talk about no matter what gender of player character they're romancing, I don't see a problem with the idea that the PC shapes the world of the NPCs in the game.  I'm talking more in hypotheticals, and I don't necessarily want to see that in ME3, but it's a game, not a set story we're passively taking in.

I'm also speaking hypothetically about the concept of  "selectable sexual orientations" and a previous poster comparing it to Vrimire. I don't have strong views about what they do, and you could easily retcon it as the character taking longer to open up on something taboo. (have we seen any gay npc couples?)

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:15 .

[syllogi]

jeweledleah wrote...

Teen - the fact that Garrus is the same character is the whole point that I'm trying to make. when you chose to romance him, you are not changing who he is, you are not toggling anything, you are simply changing the dynamic of your interaction.

now that doesn't stop people who would rather pretend that the characters are straight, or gay, or whatever else from doing so. its their prerogative. however, if the character is available to both genders? regardless of whether you chose to romance them or not - they are bisexual. by choosing not to romance them - you didn't turn them asexual. they are still the same character, its only your relationship with them that's different.

its a minor difference, but to me its a crucial one.

But they're characters, who will fall in love with the player character, dependent on certain factors.  So why is gender more important, than say, being an unrepentant murderer who romances a sweet and innocent character?  All the player character has to do is select the correct set of dialogues, and boom, they get the romance scene with the chosen LI.  Most of the time, other than the DA games crisis points, there is no repercussion for role playing in a way that would totally repulse a real person who was in a relationship with them.

I can roleplay a hideously deformed jerk who walks around naked while killing beggars and children, if allowed by the game world.  Yet, even this character can get a romance, if she chooses the right options.  Again, while games are this permissive, why would it matter if characters can be romanced by either gender?

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

@slim: They've been doing that since BALDUR'S GATE 2 (probably even since BG but I'm only halfway through the first) so if you really think this is some new concept

Yeah...this is a staple of BW games.

I'm guessing people only complain about it now b/c of the whole 'oh noes, all bisexual!' thing from DA2.

[jeweledleah]

TeenZombie wrote...

But they're characters, who will fall in love with the player character, dependent on certain factors.  So why is gender more important, than say, being an unrepentant murderer who romances a sweet and innocent character?  All the player character has to do is select the correct set of dialogues, and boom, they get the romance scene with the chosen LI.  Most of the time, other than the DA games crisis points, there is no repercussion for role playing in a way that would totally repulse a real person who was in a relationship with them.

I can roleplay a hideously deformed jerk who walks around naked while killing beggars and children, if allowed by the game world.  Yet, even this character can get a romance, if she chooses the right options.  Again, while games are this permissive, why would it matter if characters can be romanced by either gender?

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be (my personal preferences aside - these ARE video games we're talking about and its easier to accept Torchwood like everyone is bi setup, as opposed to accepting that some characters don't need armor in harmful enviroments, even though player character still wears heavy armor, even if they have the same abilities as the unarmored npc's), I'm arguing against their sexuality being player affected. its pre-determined and player can chose to explore it.. or leave it alone.  by chosing the right options. but they don't get to decide what it is.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@slim: They've been doing that since BALDUR'S GATE 2 (probably even since BG but I'm only halfway through the first) so if you really think this is some new concept

Yeah...this is a staple of BW games.

I'm guessing people only complain about it now b/c of the whole 'oh noes, all bisexual!' thing from DA2.

If they've always done it, then it's always been a mistake. Sexuality is an integral part of one's character. Switching it 'on the fly' comprimises the integrity of the writing. And let's be honest, Bioware wasn't considering consistency when they impliemented the magic sexuality button.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...
If they've always done it, then it's always been a mistake. Sexuality is an integral part of one's character. Switching it 'on the fly' comprimises the integrity of the writing. And let's be honest, Bioware wasn't considering consistency when they impliemented the magic sexuality button.

We were discussing BW allowing the PC to influence teammates actions/beliefs in general...it happens in every game.  We were discussing how inconsistent this was....BW has been doing this since BG2 in different areas.  Now they went ahead and did the DA2 thing and now everyone is like, 'Wait!  Hold on!  Consistency!  Realism! We need that!' when other aspects of the game (and romances specifically) have been spitting in the face of character consistency and realism for years.  People are being selective with their criticism for some reason.

Also, 'sexuality is an integral part of one's character' is just your opinion that you keep repeating over and over.  Since it's not a 'fact' it won't dissuade me.

jeweledleah wrote...
I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be (my personal preferences aside - these ARE video games we're talking about and its easier to accept Torchwood like everyone is bi setup, as opposed to accepting that some characters don't need armor in harmful enviroments, even though player character still wears heavy armor, even if they have the same abilities as the unarmored npc's), I'm arguing against their sexuality being player affected. its pre-determined and player can chose to explore it.. or leave it alone.  by chosing the right options. but they don't get to decide what it is.

You didn't really answer her question...

Is it predetermined that Tali is a flake and will romance a Shepard that's anti-quarian pro-geth?  Is it predetermined that Miranda has absolutely no standards when it comes to physical appearance in her mate?

It must be...because that's how they can possibly be romanced.

Modifié par jlb524, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:42 .

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

You didn't really answer her question...

Is it predetermined that Tali is a flake and will romance a Shepard that's anti-quarian pro-geth?  Is it predetermined that Miranda has absolutely no standards when it comes to physical appearance in her mate?

It must be...because that's how they can possibly be romanced.

yes, it is actualy.  which is part of what annoys me about Tali's romance.  she always has a crush on you.  always At least other characters are just friendly unless you start flirting and it is possible to mess up their romances if you pick the wrong options.

not to mention - Shepard's face might be ...homely  (you can only create so much ugly in CC without heavy use of gibbed)  but the body is still strong and trim. 

see by the virtue of being programmed, video game characters can only do what the writers want them to.  players can chose to explore various aspects of those characters, but they cannot rewrite the programing.  not without modding anyways, and I don't concider modding to be canon

Modifié par jeweledleah, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:49 .

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
If they've always done it, then it's always been a mistake. Sexuality is an integral part of one's character. Switching it 'on the fly' comprimises the integrity of the writing. And let's be honest, Bioware wasn't considering consistency when they impliemented the magic sexuality button.

We were discussing BW allowing the PC to influence teammates actions/beliefs in general...it happens in every game.  We were discussing how inconsistent this was....BW has been doing this since BG2 in different areas.  Now they went ahead and did the DA2 thing and now everyone is like, 'Wait!  Hold on!  Consistency!  Realism! We need that!' when other aspects of the game (and romances specifically) have been spitting in the face of character consistency and realism for years.  People are being selective with their criticism for some reason.

Also, 'sexuality is an integral part of one's character' is just your opinion that you keep repeating over and over.  Since it's not a 'fact' it won't dissuade me.

To what degree can I influence someone else? That is the dilemma, and it extends to other parts of the game. Can Shep really convince Jacob to decide his own father's fate on the spot? Can Shep convince Jack to put a bullet in someone's head? I've long argued these options are there to make the player feel powerful, to give them a rush of sorts, but they don't represent good writing. Neither does changing an NPC's sexuality in Shep's presence. I could try for a year straight, my straight male friends aren't going to jump in the sack with me. Period. 

As for your claim that sexuality isn't tied to personality, quite a few psychologists would disagree with that,

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...
yes, it is actualy.  which is part of what annoys me about Tali's romance.  she always has a crush on you.  always At least other characters are just friendly unless you start flirting and it is possible to mess up their romances if you pick the wrong options.

It's not just Tali....any BW romanceable character is a desperate flake with no standards by virtue of them romancing any PC no matter appearance or morality.  They are all written this way.  

jeweledleah wrote...
see by the virtue of being programmed, video game characters can only do what the writers want them to.  players can chose to explore various aspects of those characters, but they cannot rewrite the programing.  not without modding anyways, and I don't concider modding to be canon

See above.  They are all weakling flakes.  

slimgrin wrote...
To what degree can I influence someone else? That is the dilemma, and it extends to other parts of the game. Can Shep really convince Jacob to decide his own father's fate on the spot? Can Shep convince Jack to put a bullet in someone's head? I've long argued these options are there to make the player feel powerful, to give them a rush of sorts, but they don't represent good writing. Neither does changing an NPC's sexuality in Shep's presence. I could try for a year straight, my straight male friends aren't going to jump in the sack with me. Period. 

I'm simply saying that this is how BW designs their games.  If you don't like it, then oh well.  But don't pick out sexuality when the same thing happens in other sections of the game.

slimgrin wrote...

As for your claim that sexuality isn't tied to personality, quite a few psychologists would disagree with that,

Like who?

Also, is not wanting to date really unattractive people independent of personality?  Not wanting to date someone who morally repulses you?  Is that part of personality?

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:01 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Here's what Snooki has to say. (I have no idea who she is)

Ignoring the 5 ton can of worms that the question of whether that's possible is aside, there are two different things at play. One is that the character's gender just at the player's whim like a lightswitch(which is what I see every single person being bi as). The other is that it's actually written into the story where Shepard turns someone gay or something rather, or let's someone out of the closet. The latter is akin to Virmire, in game actions affecting the world. The former is not.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:05 .

[jlb524]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
One is that the character's gender just at the player's whim like a lightswitch(which is what I see every single person being bi as).

Myself and TZ have said that BW romances already do this....you can romance whoever at the flip of a lightswitch or press of the right responses and the PC's appearance or morality or how they've previously treated the character is disregarded.  Why is it only an issue with sexuality?  Why won't anyone answer this question?  

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
The other is that it's actually written into the story where Shepard turns someone gay or something rather, or let's someone out of the closet. The latter is akin to Virmire, in game actions affecting the world. The former is not.

That's like saying they need to write it into the story why Miranda will sleep with Ugly Shepard.  

[slimgrin]

I think the advocates of the magic bi button are willing to compromise artistic integrity to get their way.

[Chromie]

slimgrin wrote...

I think the advocates of the magic bi button are willing to compromise artistic integrity to get their way.

Ofcourse they do. Don't understand why everyone has to go both ways it's just greedy.

[outmane]

slimgrin wrote...

I think the advocates of the magic bi button are willing to compromise artistic integrity to get their way.

What artistic integrity? Is a NPC not being bothered by anything (morality, preferences, appearances) other then gender a proof of integrity in writing or is it simply there because sexuality has historically been a bigger issue in media then how much of a douche a protagonist can be before he gets turned down

Modifié par outmane, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:18 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

jlb524 wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
One is that the character's gender just at the player's whim like a lightswitch(which is what I see every single person being bi as).

Myself and TZ have said that BW romances already do this....you can romance whoever at the flip of a lightswitch or press of the right responses and the PC's appearance or morality or how they've previously treated the character is disregarded.  Why is it only an issue with sexuality?  Why won't anyone answer this question?  

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
The other is that it's actually written into the story where Shepard turns someone gay or something rather, or let's someone out of the closet. The latter is akin to Virmire, in game actions affecting the world. The former is not.

That's like saying they need to write it into the story why Miranda will sleep with Ugly Shepard.  

I know. It's an observation. That's not a very good example at all anyway, a better one would the one I pointed out, with Jack.

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
yes, it is actualy.  which is part of what annoys me about Tali's romance.  she always has a crush on you.  always At least other characters are just friendly unless you start flirting and it is possible to mess up their romances if you pick the wrong options.

It's not just Tali....any BW romanceable character is a desperate flake with no standards by virtue of them romancing any PC no matter appearance or morality.  They are all written this way.  

jeweledleah wrote...
see by the virtue of being programmed, video game characters can only do what the writers want them to.  players can chose to explore various aspects of those characters, but they cannot rewrite the programing.  not without modding anyways, and I don't concider modding to be canon

See above.  They are all weakling flakes. 

of sorts.  they are programmed to respond to certain behaviors.  perform those behaviors?  win.  don't perform those behaviors?  lose.  but they are what they are.  not what player makes them out to be.

the only character you have any control over?  is your own.

[shepskisaac]

Don't get the point of magic bi button discussion when none of the characters so far said "I don't want you same-gendered Shep!". Until that happens, BioWare may very well make them available anytime they want.