25715 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...
I think the advocates of the magic bi button are willing to compromise artistic integrity to get their way.

You still haven't answered the question.  Why is it okay for them to 'compromise artistic integrity' in other areas, like adding in the magic 'ugly Shepard' button?  The magic 'douchey Renegade' button?  Why are you focused so much on sexuality?

jeweledleah wrote...
of sorts.  they are programmed to respond to certain behaviors.  perform those behaviors?  win.  don't perform those behaviors?  lose.  but they are what they are.  not what player makes them out to be.

The PCs aren't really programmed to respond to certain behaviors.  Only in the actual romance covno and as long as you hit the right repsonse...win.

All BW LIs are flakey.

jeweledleah wrote...
the only character you have any control over?  is your own.

That's absolutely false in BW games.  I can control how my squad levels up, to some extent, what they wear, then at some points what decisions they make, etc.

In some games, you can control what spells and powers they cast and when they cast them.

Ringo12 wrote...
Ofcourse they do. Don't understand why everyone has to go both ways it's just greedy. 

I don't know, wanting hetero-exlcusive LIs b/c you can't stand the notion that your precious LI is being romanced by the other gender sounds greedy to me.

I'm not sure how asking for equal options in a game is 'greedy'.

But people like slimgrin asking for 'moar bewbs' in love scenes for these games isn't greedy, I suppose...

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[Ryzaki]

I'm still amused at anyone who takes BW's characters uber seriously when they do in the end act like video game characters with said limits. Kaidan will stand by and say nothing when Shep punches a reporter in the face (so will Liara) and Shep can be the most racist, nasty, rude person in the galaxy and they will still suck his/her face off before Ilos. Hell Shep can call Liara's species disgusting, be pretty damn rude to Benezia before she dies, kill the rachni queen for kicks, murder Shiala for being indoctrinated (in past) even after she helps him (plz note Shep doesn't bother justifying this with Shiala still being infected. He just shoot her in the head while saying she never should've sided with Saren), say what Jacob's father did wasn't a bad idea for a vacation (liara maynot be there for that moment but Tali, Miranda and Jack certainly can), run around going "YAY CERBERUS!", have an autistic kid go through hell just for the *chance* that a weapon against the geth might be created, slaughter dazed ndoctrinated salarians for...who knows why they'd died in the explosion anyway they were trapped there, and they still wanna sleep with him.

Seriously?

Ick.

I could understand Miranda but then she'd be turned off by UBER PARAGON! Shep's unwillingness to leave a kitten in a tree. Jack would be turned off by renedouche Shep's "Screw off." act because renedouche don't put up with NO ONE'S crap. Especially not a subordinate. Heck she might even be turned off by Uber Paragon's Jesus act. Tali defintely shouldn't want Renedouche yet I can easily have her romance him.

And this isn't even going into them acting like zombies in certain parts (Hi Grunt on Mordin's loyalty mission.) They do what the script tells them to do, that's all they can do. Like puppets on a string.

Characterization when it came to romances went out the window a looooong time ago.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I think the advocates of the magic bi button are willing to compromise artistic integrity to get their way.

You still haven't answered the question.  Why is it okay for them to 'compromise artistic integrity' in other areas, like adding in the magic 'ugly Shepard' button?  The magic 'douchey Renegade' button?  Why are you focused so much on sexuality?

Those options pertain to Shepard, not to NPC's. NPC's are a part of the plot, and as such they deserve a measure of consistency. I already noted that Shepard's influence is too strong in certain situations to be believable, ie: Jack and Jacob. The Bi-button is just another example.

My solution? Make said character gay.

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:37 .

[Xilizhra]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I think the advocates of the magic bi button are willing to compromise artistic integrity to get their way.

You still haven't answered the question.  Why is it okay for them to 'compromise artistic integrity' in other areas, like adding in the magic 'ugly Shepard' button?  The magic 'douchey Renegade' button?  Why are you focused so much on sexuality?

Those options pertain to Shepard, not to NPC's. NPC's are a part of the plot, and as such they deserve a measure of consistency. and I already noted that Sheaprds influence is too strong in certain situaitons to be believable, ie: Jack and Jacob. The Bi-button is just another example.

My solution? Make said character gay.

That would accomplish balance, but Bioware would see it as too much of a resource drain.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...
Those options pertain to Shepard, not to NPC's.

They absolutely do pertain to the NPCs.  What, people don't have standards on who they date as long as they have the 'right equipment'?   People will date someone they find morally repulsive?

Ryzaki wrote... 

Characterization when it came to romances went out the window a looooong time ago. 

It's an issue now because people had to share their LIs with 'teh gays' in DA2....the horror.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:40 .

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

Those options pertain to Shepard, not to NPC's.

How so? Super-realistic characters would have perferences about morals and looks of their protential partners. You really think super-realistic Ashley would be dating a guy who punches another woman for really no good reason? The point is, there's no realism when it comes to the availability of the LIs in this franchise (and other BioWare games, and Fable, and Skyrim etc). So why should their availability based on gender be suddenly realistic?

[slimgrin]

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Those options pertain to Shepard, not to NPC's.

How so? Super-realistic characters would have perferences about morals and looks of their protential partners. You really think super-realistic Ashley would be dating a guy who punches another woman for really no good reason? The point is, there's no realism when it comes to the availability of the LIs in this franchise (and other BioWare games, and Fable, and Skyrim etc). So why should their availability based on gender be suddenly realistic?

You are almost asking why any plot device or character should be realistic, just so the PC can have a choice - in everything.

Is that what you want?

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Good debate guise:wizard:. So who actually prefers the bi-button, and who prefers a character that says  "yes, I am bi."?

Relying on the bi-button possibly means that you will never be approached for romance, which I abhor.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:51 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm for LIs being explicitly defined as bisexual as soon as possible so this problem can be hereafter avoided.

[wolf99000]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Good debate guise:wizard:. So who actually prefers the bi-button, and who prefers a character that says  "yes, I am bi."?

Relying on the bi-button possibly means that you will never be approached for romance, which I abhor.

you dont need a bi button for that you just need to not take the conversation that way with the person and you will not get hit on simple

anyway right now the only bi option is kelly and she has always been bi in the game the only other same sex people we know for sure about are both fully lesbian/gay

[jeweledleah]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm for LIs being explicitly defined as bisexual as soon as possible so this problem can be hereafter avoided.

same here.

though I do enjoy the current situation with Sam and Steve and I kinda hope they stay the way they are.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

You are almost asking why any plot device or character should be realistic, just so the PC can have a choice - in everything.

Is that what you want?

In regards to romances, it is almost 'everything' as it stands. The PC can choose between any LI added to the game. The only limit is gender, in some cases. That's it! The only one. So yeah, removing that last restriction is what I want.

Tell me why they should have that one restriction and not the others (appearance, morality)?

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
So who actually prefers the bi-button, and who prefers a character that says  "yes, I am bi."?

Relying on the bi-button possibly means that you will never be approached for romance, which I abhor.

I was fine with what they did in DA2 (a mix between the LI approaching Hawke and Hawke having to initiate and approach the LI).

I honestly don't care much how they do it as long as gender isn't the only thing stopping you from doing a romantic subplot.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

You are almost asking why any plot device or character should be realistic, just so the PC can have a choice. In everything.

Is that what you want?

No. But if the availability of love interests is already not dictated by realism, I see no point in clutching to realism & 'artistic vision' just in sexual orientation aspect. If BioWare wants to go all-realistic on romances in future, I won't mind at all. But going realistic on romances doesn't just mean "everyone's straight except for one bi girl/guy". It also means 90% of female squadmates shouldn't be into the male pratagonist (as it happens with Shep), it also means characters shouldn't be up for a romance if the player character does things that don't fit with their morals and it also means at least some of these characters should take looks into consideration (because the reality is that many if not most humans DO take looks into consideration). You either go actually realistic with the availability of the LIs or you don't go at all.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 20 novembre 2011 - 01:06 .

[jeweledleah]

taking morality into consideration - yes, but looks are impossible to program as long as you are giving people an option to create their own faces rather then choosing from presets. there are too many possible variations to to program looks based response... unless you tie it to something simpler to determine - like skin color, but that would .... not come across very well (this is my diplomatic way of putting it)

personally - I'm looking for character consistency. realism is subjective, especially when we are playing the game with magical powers and all powerful machine races (though at least giving a nod to the laws of physics would have been nice...). sadly - ME team cannot even write consistent characters within a singular game installment, let alone across the trilogy. oh well.

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...
taking morality into consideration - yes, but looks are impossible to program as long as you are giving people an option to create their own faces rather then choosing from presets. there are too many possible variations to to program looks based response... unless you tie it to something simpler to determine - like skin color, but that would .... not come across very well (this is my diplomatic way of putting it)

They could go by ratio of slider values.  Or, they could also do something like, say Tali won't be attracted to Sheploo.  Miranda won't be attracted to any Shepard that uses the second preset.   Jack doesn't like big noses, so if your nose slider value is greater than 15 the romance can't be activated.

jeweledleah wrote...
personally - I'm looking for character consistency. realism is subjective, especially when we are playing the game with magical powers and all powerful machine races (though at least giving a nod to the laws of physics would have been nice...). sadly - ME team cannot even write consistent characters within a singular game installment, let alone across the trilogy. oh well.

Do you want character consistency in one game/trilogy per Shepard playthrough or across everyone's games with all Shepards?  These are different.

[slimgrin]

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

You are almost asking why any plot device or character should be realistic, just so the PC can have a choice. In everything.

Is that what you want?

No. But if the availability of love interests is already not dictated by realism, I see no point in clutching to realism & 'artistic vision' just in sexual orientation aspect. If BioWare wants to go all-realistic on romances in future, I won't mind at all. But going realistic on romances doesn't just mean "everyone's straight except for one bi girl/guy". It also means 90% of female squadmates shouldn't be into the male pratagonist (as it happens with Shep), it also means characters shouldn't be up for a romance if the player character does things that don't fit with their morals and it also means at least some of these characters should take looks into consideration (because the reality is that many if not most humans DO take looks into consideration). You either go actually realistic with the availability of the LIs or you don't go at all.

Why is the gay community here so afraid of a gay character? Why isn't anyone asking for that?

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 novembre 2011 - 01:46 .

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
taking morality into consideration - yes, but looks are impossible to program as long as you are giving people an option to create their own faces rather then choosing from presets. there are too many possible variations to to program looks based response... unless you tie it to something simpler to determine - like skin color, but that would .... not come across very well (this is my diplomatic way of putting it)

They could go by ratio of slider values.  Or, they could also do something like, say Tali won't be attracted to Sheploo.  Miranda won't be attracted to any Shepard that uses the second preset.   Jack doesn't like big noses, so if your nose slider value is greater than 15 the romance can't be activated.

jeweledleah wrote...
personally - I'm looking for character consistency. realism is subjective, especially when we are playing the game with magical powers and all powerful machine races (though at least giving a nod to the laws of physics would have been nice...). sadly - ME team cannot even write consistent characters within a singular game installment, let alone across the trilogy. oh well.

Do you want character consistency in one game/trilogy per Shepard playthrough or across everyone's games with all Shepards?  These are different.

if presets worked the way they do in DA2 - I could maybe see the preset thing.  but presets in ME are arbitrary, so you really cannot track them.  still - you could make a good looking Shepard with any preset, not to metnion with some of the face structures, you have to use high nose jut, just to make the nose not look sunken in (and or remove that weird lipshelf male shepards especialy are prone to).  they would have to completely redesign the character creator and make it a LOT more limiting then it already is in order to implement appearance checks.  not worth it IMO.  if all characters can be bi, they can also be so open minded as to not care about minor specifics of the appearance.

as for your second question - I'm looking for both.  so far, I've gotten neither, at least not in ME (in DA at least as long as they have the same writer, writing the same character - they are recognizable.  in ME - you have different wirters writing different scenes which results in schisophrenic characters).  I'm hoping that they will at least attempt to rectify some of the character inconsistency issues.  I'm not holding my breath though.

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...
if all characters can be bi, they can also be so open minded as to not care about minor specifics of the appearance.

I agree.  I was using the appearance thing as a counter-example.  I'm fine without any restrictions on romances....it's up to the player to decide what type of Shepard fits best with each LI.

jeweledleah wrote...
as for your second question - I'm looking for both.  so far, I've gotten neither, at least not in ME (in DA at least as long as they have the same writer, writing the same character - they are recognizable.  in ME - you have different wirters writing different scenes which results in schisophrenic characters).  I'm hoping that they will at least attempt to rectify some of the character inconsistency issues.  I'm not holding my breath though.

I doubt it's possible for characters to be 100% consistent across different playthroughs unless they make the characters very limited with the PC not being able to influence them or influence what happens to them.  So, there would always be one defined path with each PC and that was it.  So, no option to harden Alistair in DA:O, no option to rival Varric in DA2, etc.  and the PC would have a predetermined LI with no choice.

[wolf99000]

slimgrin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

You are almost asking why any plot device or character should be realistic, just so the PC can have a choice. In everything.

Is that what you want?

No. But if the availability of love interests is already not dictated by realism, I see no point in clutching to realism & 'artistic vision' just in sexual orientation aspect. If BioWare wants to go all-realistic on romances in future, I won't mind at all. But going realistic on romances doesn't just mean "everyone's straight except for one bi girl/guy". It also means 90% of female squadmates shouldn't be into the male pratagonist (as it happens with Shep), it also means characters shouldn't be up for a romance if the player character does things that don't fit with their morals and it also means at least some of these characters should take looks into consideration (because the reality is that many if not most humans DO take looks into consideration). You either go actually realistic with the availability of the LIs or you don't go at all.

Why is the gay community here so afraid of a gay characters? Why isn't anyone asking for that?

I am a bi girl and I have no problem with a gay character from what I have seen its mostly the straight people more guys than girls that dont want it but the main thing is from what we know now the full gay option is in the game already

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

I doubt it's possible for characters to be 100% consistent across different playthroughs unless they make the characters very limited with the PC not being able to influence them or influence what happens to them.  So, there would always be one defined path with each PC and that was it.  So, no option to harden Alistair in DA:O, no option to rival Varric in DA2, etc.  and the PC would have a predetermined LI with no choice.

not necessarily.  hardened Alistair is still Alistair.  rivaled Varric is still consistently Varric.  recognizable in every playthrough, both react consistently, regardless of the playthrough.  Leliana and Wynne will always disaprove of defiling Ashes.  Morrigan will always leave if you refuse Dark ritual, even if you romanced her.

in ME however - you have the same characters that you did nothing to influence in any way, proposing renegade OR paragon solution based solely on whom else you have in a party.  you have Miranda going hot and cold practicaly at random.  you have Jacob being friendly one minute, and dismissive the next.  and I could go on.

its not impossible to write consistent characters, that are consistent regardless of the playthrough.  ME team should just do what DA team does and let the same writers write entirety of each character.  and if that means that you may end up with both teammates advocating the same thing, then it might actualy make for a better story, IMO

Modifié par jeweledleah, 20 novembre 2011 - 01:57 .

[syllogi]

slimgrin wrote...

Why is the gay community here so afraid of a gay character? Why isn't anyone asking for that?

I want to be able to have a choice of LIs, both male and female.  I don't "settle" for whatever character is available based on the gender of my character (in my case, always female).  My favored LI in ME2 was forever barred to me because I won't play a male character.  So, in my case, no, I don't want gay characters.  Because I want a wider array of choices, not because it's "scary" to make yet another character who is not available to romance solely based on gender.  

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

Why is the gay community here so afraid of a gay character? Why isn't anyone asking for that?

The hell are you talking about? What does it have to do with anything I wrote?

jeweledleah wrote...

taking morality into consideration - yes, but looks are impossible to program as long as you are giving people an option to create their own faces rather then choosing from presets. there are too many possible variations to to program looks based response... unless you tie it to something simpler to determine - like skin color, but that would .... not come across very well (this is my diplomatic way of putting it)

Agree. But morality couldn't be easier to program in a game that tracks the choices and even has its good/evil bars.

jeweledleah wrote...
personally - I'm looking for character consistency.

If any of the old characters is revealed as bi with a fitting explanation why they weren't available before, then no consistency would suffer. Or perhaps there doesn't need to be any kind of an explanation actually. It's not like FemShep knows that Ashley (for example) was hitting on ManShep so she doesn't need to ask "why were you hitting on my alternate reality male self in ME1 an not on me?" ;P In FemShep's universe, the developement of the relationship between FemShep & Ashley may simply be different.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 20 novembre 2011 - 02:04 .

[slimgrin]

wolf99000 wrote...

I am a bi girl and I have no problem with a gay character from what I have seen its mostly the straight people more guys than girls that dont want it but the main thing is from what we know now the full gay option is in the game already

I'm a straight male and I've encouraged a gay character for over two years now. But the gay/bi community here doesn't want that. They would rather Bioware compromise, and make the magic Bi-button a feature....WTF?? 

[Xilizhra]

slimgrin wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

I am a bi girl and I have no problem with a gay character from what I have seen its mostly the straight people more guys than girls that dont want it but the main thing is from what we know now the full gay option is in the game already

I'm a straight male and I've encouraged a gay character for over two years now. But the gay/bi community here doesn't want that. They would rather Bioware compromise, and make the magic Bi-button a feature....WTF?? 

Check your PMs. I sent one to you with that answer.