25715 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
But all of them if there's 7, like ME2? I don't like. Or worse if it's 8. I don't like the concept of the entire ship after Shep. If it's down to 4 per gender, I can believe that, and it's less nagging.

But it's okay if every female on the ship is after a Male Shepard?  Also, not every LI is after you and you must initiate it with them first.

TMA LIVE wrote...
And in some cases, I do think some characters should be exclusive to a gender for story reasons. Like with Morrigan and the child you can have with her. Or becoming Queen with Al.

The Morrigan romance would still work with a female.  You don't have to romance her to do the Dark Ritual...just be male.  A female romancing her would get Alistair to do it (I play the f/f Morrigan mod and this is what I do).  The romance fits fine.

With Alistair, you do know that while dwarven, elven, and mage females can romance him they cannot become queen?

The only BW romance that I can think of that had to be 'straight' is the Aerie one in Baldur's Gate 2 and that's only b/c she has the PC's freakin baby in game.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:31 .

[ElitePinecone]

TMA LIVE wrote...
And who's Steve and Sam? New crewmembers?

Exclusively gay and lesbian crewmembers, according to what we can interpret from the files. They're romance options for mShep and femShep, respectively. 

I've read the last few pages, interesting discussion. 

I'd note one thing, though: arguing for exclusively gay and lesbian LIs looks noble, especially coming from people who would never use it. It's welcome, even. 

But it's completely and utterly undermined if your motivations are that having bisexual characters would 'ruin' people, that there should be rigidly defined 'straight' and 'gay' characters so that all 'those people' can go over and have their romances and leave us alone. 

If your problem with s/s romances is that they are s/s romances, at least be brave enough to say that at the outset. 

Someone asked why people were in favour of bisexual squadmates rather than clear gay/lesbian ones? It's really simple - more choices. More choices for more people. 

Edit: That's not to say I don't appreciate exclusively gay LIs where they exist - but I do think that giving more options to more people is more important than having purely gay or lesbian LIs. In all likelihood Steve and Sam will get a fairly small proportion of the romances; this is hard to justify from a development perspective and I suspect studios would be more willing to invest in s/s content if it's shown that people use it. 

I don't care a jot if you think bisexual characters are unrealistic. Having characters who flirt with and romance Shepard regardless of morality, actions, appearance, past history and all common sense is unrealistic. Having interspecies romance between humans and turians is damn unrealistic.  

Bioware threw realism out the window - it never existed and it never will exist in video games. If you're more worked up about possible s/s romances with characters who never defined their sexualities than opposite-sex romances with aliens, you've got your priorities wrong. 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's just that I like to see differences besides a sex change with the protagonist. I liked that as a female, I got to see another side of a character then as a male. Like with Kaidan, who treats you completely differently for being a chick. Or with Jacob, and learning how you can really get under his skin. Or Thane calling you a nick name.

However, as a straight gamer playing Male-Shep, I'd get creeped out if Thane started calling me "Siha", aka a Goddess, because I was being nice to him. Or Jacob calling me the perfect man. 

Those comparisons aren't very good because Kaidan, Thane, Jacob weren't LIs for ManShep.  Interactions with those guys are pretty similar between ManShep and FemShep that chooses not to pursue a romance with them.

What you asked is if the romance paths for male and female should differ, not should romance paths differ from non-romance paths.   

That's not true. Kaidan jokes with you more if you're a female, and you also get an exclusive conversation after Edan Prime with him that Male-Shep doesn't get. He's also more professional with Male-shep.

Thane calls you Siha regardless, unless you didn't do his loyality mission. He goes not with Male-shep, and it's not exclusive to his romance.

Jacob can get messed with before his romance even activates. As a matter of fact, if you don't activate his romance for a certain scene, it doesn't matter if you flirted with him before. One of the things is him telling you about how they used your image, and you were the perfect example. As femshep, you can use that to mess with him.

[FoxHound109]

Are we actually still on the bi debate? Come on guys, it's been 516 pages. I thought we were over this.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
That's not true. Kaidan jokes with you more if you're a female, and you also get an exclusive conversation after Edan Prime with him that Male-Shep doesn't get. He's also more professional with Male-shep.

Thane calls you Siha regardless, unless you didn't do his loyality mission. He goes not with Male-shep, and it's not exclusive to his romance.

Jacob can get messed with before his romance even activates. As a matter of fact, if you don't activate his romance for a certain scene, it doesn't matter if you flirted with him before. One of the things is him telling you about how they used your image, and you were the perfect example. As femshep, you can use that to mess with him.

Tiny differences but nothing huge.  I wouldn't say those are totally different paths.  For the most part, the interactions go the same way.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
But all of them if there's 7, like ME2? I don't like. Or worse if it's 8. I don't like the concept of the entire ship after Shep. If it's down to 4 per gender, I can believe that, and it's less nagging.

But it's okay if every female on the ship is after a Male Shepard?  Also, not every LI is after you and you must initiate it with them first.

If it's only three? I have no problem.

If it's three chicks and three guys? I have a problem with a large amount.

If it's 4 chicks and 4 guys. That's too much period. That's literally too many options for everyone, and absurd.

And ME1 and ME2 are both victims of "I said no, or showed no interest, but look at that, I'm in a romance anyways". So don't tell me how I just need to not activate it like in DA2. I went through Ash, Miranda, and Jack crap. Femshep had it easy, where it really was just about activating it.

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

Why do you have issues with 'alt universes'?  

Every Shepard's ME story is an alt universe.  Why do you care about what could possibly happen in someone else's game?

I don't see how your complaints are justified on as long as the characters are consistent within your own universe.

at current count, I have 15 shepards, male and female.  judging by the spoilers, I might end up getting 2 more for Steve and Sam (I might also end up shelving a few without importing, if some of the other spoilers are correct).  while I don't currently have a gay male character, its more due to the fact that I prefer to play female characters, I don't create characters for the purpose of having gay characters, and since the only s/s romances are bi, I end up playing them with females anyways. so I care, because those alternate universes? are the universes that I will see up close and personaly.  and those alternate universes, doin fact ruin the characters for me to the point where i don't feel like romancing them at all.  they reduce my personal replayability.

am I selfish?  yes.  yes I am.  but I'm not asking for them to remove your choices.  I'm asking for them to implement those choices in a way that doesn't remove MY choices.

[MACharlie1]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's just that I like to see differences besides a sex change with the protagonist. I liked that as a female, I got to see another side of a character then as a male. Like with Kaidan, who treats you completely differently for being a chick. Or with Jacob, and learning how you can really get under his skin. Or Thane calling you a nick name.

However, as a straight gamer playing Male-Shep, I'd get creeped out if Thane started calling me "Siha", aka a Goddess, because I was being nice to him. Or Jacob calling me the perfect man. 

Those comparisons aren't very good because Kaidan, Thane, Jacob weren't LIs for ManShep.  Interactions with those guys are pretty similar between ManShep and FemShep that chooses not to pursue a romance with them.

What you asked is if the romance paths for male and female should differ, not should romance paths differ from non-romance paths.   

That's not true. Kaidan jokes with you more if you're a female, and you also get an exclusive conversation after Edan Prime with him that Male-Shep doesn't get. He's also more professional with Male-shep.

Thane calls you Siha regardless, unless you didn't do his loyality mission. He goes not with Male-shep, and it's not exclusive to his romance.

Jacob can get messed with before his romance even activates. As a matter of fact, if you don't activate his romance for a certain scene, it doesn't matter if you flirted with him before. One of the things is him telling you about how they used your image, and you were the perfect example. As femshep, you can use that to mess with him.

Funny you should mention this...because Ashley DOES have conversation with FemShep. I have a feeling Kaidan's post-Eden Prime was a left over from when they were going to do s/s. Kind of how when Jack in ME2 asks Shep if it's just about sex, for FemShep, it kind of just drops out and is all awkward like a bug. Just sayin. 

And I agree - Thane should not be calling ManShep siha for any reason whatsoever. Just like Vega should not be calling ManShep a certain name. 

[Ryzaki]

Then you should have a problem TMA. There are 5 females (and this is *not* including Kelly!) out of a total of 7 (main characters since I'm not including Kelly!) characters after Shep's pants. That's ridiculous. Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Jack and Tali. The other main females on Ship (organics) are Samara and Kasumi.

If you include side characters (that Shep knows well) the ratio shoots up to a ridculous 9 out of 11. (Shiala, Parsini, Gabby and Kelly)

NINE out of eleven females find Shep attractive? 

Wait no TEN because even though Samara says no she still admits she'd throw Shep down and ride him like a rodeo if she was younger.

Yeah. There's WAY too many people wanting in Shep's pants. Way too damn many. Extending that to the o/s just makes Shep's Sex magnet label look like it affects both genders instead of just one for some magical reason.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:53 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

If it's only three? I have no problem.

If it's three chicks and three guys? I have a problem with a large amount.

If it's 4 chicks and 4 guys. That's too much period. That's literally too many options for everyone, and absurd.

And ME1 and ME2 are both victims of "I said no, or showed no interest, but look at that, I'm in a romance anyways". So don't tell me how I just need to not activate it like in DA2. I went through Ash, Miranda, and Jack crap. Femshep had it easy, where it really was just about activating it.

Yes, I've had no issue avoiding unwanted ME1/ME2 romances.

So, it seems you do have a problem with 'only three' since you are complaining about Miranda, Jack, etc.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
And in some cases, I do think some characters should be exclusive to a gender for story reasons. Like with Morrigan and the child you can have with her. Or becoming Queen with Al.

The Morrigan romance would still work with a female.  You don't have to romance her to do the Dark Ritual...just be male.  A female romancing her would get Alistair to do it (I play the f/f Morrigan mod and this is what I do).  The romance fits fine.

With Alistair, you do know that while dwarven, elven, and mage females can romance him they cannot become queen?

The only BW romance that I can think of that had to be 'straight' is the Aerie one in Baldur's Gate 2 and that's only b/c she has the PC's freakin baby in game.

Morrigan can still have your kid just by doing her romance, and refusing the dark ritual. She runs off with it. And it ain't no dark ritual child. You couldn't get that from a female playthrough.

And yes, Al refuses to be with you because of the following. It's another element that's exclusive. Or do you want him to dump you because you're a man?

[jeweledleah]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Funny you should mention this...because Ashley DOES have conversation with FemShep. I have a feeling Kaidan's post-Eden Prime was a left over from when they were going to do s/s. Kind of how when Jack in ME2 asks Shep if it's just about sex, for FemShep, it kind of just drops out and is all awkward like a bug. Just sayin. 

And I agree - Thane should not be calling ManShep siha for any reason whatsoever. Just like Vega should not be calling ManShep a certain name. 

sigh.. they were NOT doing same sex.  they recorded all of Shepard's dialogue because it was easier then separating it. its how we got maleshepard calling himself a woman and a princess. but nevermind that.

I have a feeling that, that conversation got left out (along with making Kaidan joke less with male Shepard and act in a more professional manner)  becasue they wanted to make a choice to save Ashley easier.  i don't think they anticipated that anyone other then femsheps that romanced Kaidan would be saving him.

case in point.  Kaidan gets Ashley's dialogue after Virmire with the exception of romance specific lines.  he gets mostly Ashley's dialogue on Horizon. and that dialogue fits romance more then non romance.  he gets Ashley's armor in the intro and random mook armor on Horizon (check out Illium spaceport some time, you'll see what I mean).  he gets Ashley's animations. 

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...
at current count, I have 15 shepards, male and female.  judging by the spoilers, I might end up getting 2 more for Steve and Sam (I might also end up shelving a few without importing, if some of the other spoilers are correct).  while I don't currently have a gay male character, its more due to the fact that I prefer to play female characters, I don't create characters for the purpose of having gay characters, and since the only s/s romances are bi, I end up playing them with females anyways. so I care, because those alternate universes? are the universes that I will see up close and personaly.  and those alternate universes, doin fact ruin the characters for me to the point where i don't feel like romancing them at all.  they reduce my personal replayability.

am I selfish?  yes.  yes I am.  but I'm not asking for them to remove your choices.  I'm asking for them to implement those choices in a way that doesn't remove MY choices.

Considering you have 15 Shepards and I only have one, it seems you've been a lot more satisfied with the choices than I have and the game has been a lot more replayable.

I'm not sure what you are saying.  I do realize people have multiple Shepards and experience many 'alt universes' but as far as story and universe legitimacy goes, it only matters what happens in each individual one.  If you allow meta-knowledge of what can happen in another universe or what does happen in another universe affect the current Shepard you're playing then that's on you.

What exactly ruins the character for you in an 'alt universe' so you can't even romance them anymore?

TMA LIVE wrote...
Morrigan can still have your kid just by doing her romance, and refusing the dark ritual. She runs off with it. And it ain't no dark ritual child. You couldn't get that from a female playthrough.

So?  How does this preclude a female from romancing her?  I don't care if I can't get the 'she has your kid' thing with the female romance...I actually think it's more interesting with Alistair having to do it.

TMA LIVE wrote...

And yes, Al refuses to be with you because of the following. It's another element that's exclusive. Or do you want him to dump you because you're a man?

A man, a dwarf, an elf.  It does makes sense...but that inevitablility doesn't prevent a dwarf/elf/mage from pursuing something with him and even sleeping with him.  

None of it matters if he remains on as a Grey Warden.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:57 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

If it's only three? I have no problem.

If it's three chicks and three guys? I have a problem with a large amount.

If it's 4 chicks and 4 guys. That's too much period. That's literally too many options for everyone, and absurd.

And ME1 and ME2 are both victims of "I said no, or showed no interest, but look at that, I'm in a romance anyways". So don't tell me how I just need to not activate it like in DA2. I went through Ash, Miranda, and Jack crap. Femshep had it easy, where it really was just about activating it.

Yes, I've had no issue avoiding unwanted ME1/ME2 romances.

So, it seems you do have a problem with 'only three' since you are complaining about Miranda, Jack, etc.

Again, of course you didn't. Have you played a Male-Shep playthrough? There's a lot of one thing leading to something else in those romances compared to the Femshep. No, I'm complaining if my complaints where multiplied from 3 to 8 within the same game. Since Ash is in ME1.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:54 .

[ElitePinecone]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
But all of them if there's 7, like ME2? I don't like. Or worse if it's 8. I don't like the concept of the entire ship after Shep. If it's down to 4 per gender, I can believe that, and it's less nagging.

But it's okay if every female on the ship is after a Male Shepard?  Also, not every LI is after you and you must initiate it with them first.

If it's only three? I have no problem.

If it's three chicks and three guys? I have a problem with a large amount.

If it's 4 chicks and 4 guys. That's too much period. That's literally too many options for everyone, and absurd.

And ME1 and ME2 are both victims of "I said no, or showed no interest, but look at that, I'm in a romance anyways". So don't tell me how I just need to not activate it like in DA2. I went through Ash, Miranda, and Jack crap. Femshep had it easy, where it really was just about activating it.

At the moment there's one exclusively gay/lesbian option for each gender, as far as we know  

Plus another two bisexual romances in Kelly and Liara.

Plus another two characters who may or may not be open to s/s (three if we count the other VS). 

That's, at the very most, four options for lesbianShep, three for straight maleShep, two for straight femShep and three for gayShep. At the very most, assuming the unlikely scenario that all the new characters are bisexual. 

That doesn't count mini-romances or flings you can have with minor characters - there seem to be at least a few in there. 

Plus all the existing romances from ME/ME2, who pop up for a conversation or two. 

[TMA LIVE]

ElitePinecone wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
And who's Steve and Sam? New crewmembers?

Exclusively gay and lesbian crewmembers, according to what we can interpret from the files. They're romance options for mShep and femShep, respectively. 

Oh that's cool. Sounds like something that should have happened a while ago.

[TMA LIVE]

ElitePinecone wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
But all of them if there's 7, like ME2? I don't like. Or worse if it's 8. I don't like the concept of the entire ship after Shep. If it's down to 4 per gender, I can believe that, and it's less nagging.

But it's okay if every female on the ship is after a Male Shepard?  Also, not every LI is after you and you must initiate it with them first.

If it's only three? I have no problem.

If it's three chicks and three guys? I have a problem with a large amount.

If it's 4 chicks and 4 guys. That's too much period. That's literally too many options for everyone, and absurd.

And ME1 and ME2 are both victims of "I said no, or showed no interest, but look at that, I'm in a romance anyways". So don't tell me how I just need to not activate it like in DA2. I went through Ash, Miranda, and Jack crap. Femshep had it easy, where it really was just about activating it.

At the moment there's one exclusively gay/lesbian option for each gender, as far as we know  

Plus another two bisexual romances in Kelly and Liara.

Plus another two characters who may or may not be open to s/s (three if we count the other VS). 

That's, at the very most, four options for lesbianShep, three for straight maleShep, two for straight femShep and three for gayShep. At the very most, assuming the unlikely scenario that all the new characters are bisexual. 

That doesn't count mini-romances or flings you can have with minor characters - there seem to be at least a few in there. 

Plus all the existing romances from ME/ME2, who pop up for a conversation or two. 

Again, my complaint would be all 8 being available in one playthrough.

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm asking for them to implement those choices in a way that doesn't remove MY choices.

? How does Ashley being available for s/s romance, even without explanation, removes any of your choices???

[Ryzaki]

@TMA: Why?

Especially if you have to initiate the romances and there's no ninjaing?

What's so hard about *not* romancing a character?

The game does not force you to romance everyone at once or anyone at all. There are a few traps but I believe the devs said they were working on that and it would be obvious if you were starting a romance. (That and they said they'd put in some actual friendship tracts...well more like less "Calibrations." but whatever close enough).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2011 - 04:01 .

[TMA LIVE]

Ryzaki wrote...

Why?

Especially if you have to initiate the romances and there's no ninjaing?

What's so hard about *not* romancing a character?

Because in some cases I don't want every character to only romance me because I said, "You have a nice "something".

I'd like some of them to make a pass at me, without me flirting with them. Like with Tali.

My problem is all 8 of them. Or 4 of them. Within the same playthrough. It's annoying. I'm already annoyed as is.

I also have a problem with Shepard activating all 8 within the same ship.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 20 novembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

Considering you have 15 Shepards and I only have one, it seems you've been a lot more satisfied with the choices than I have and the game has been a lot more replayable.

I'm not sure what you are saying.  I do realize people have multiple Shepards and experience many 'alt universes' but as far as story and universe legitimacy goes, it only matters what happens in each individual one.  If you allow meta-knowledge of what can happen in another universe or what does happen in another universe affect the current Shepard you're playing then that's on you.

What exactly ruins the character for you in an 'alt universe' so you can't even romance them anymore?

because I like for everyone but my Shepard to remain constant.  I want to be able to recognize them and to predict them.  I want their backstories to start out the same, their attitudes to start out the same.  for instance - Ashley.  maleshep shows up and she throws cation to the wind.  regulations?  fraternization?  who cares?  so if for some reason THAT becomes her reason for not being available to femshep before?  she is no longer  the Ashley I knew.  she's a different character that looks and sounds like Ashley.  its not just the romance either - I don't even want to talk to characters like that anymore.

to you it doesn't matter.  to me, it means everything.  and whatever my issues with DA are, at least the characters (other then Anders, but at least he has story excuse) remain internaly consistent.  timelines are all screwy, but I can count on characters acting like themselves, no matter what kind of Hawke or Warden I play.

and why does the desire for internal consistency for characters bother you?  Isaac - why are you so agaisnt them having a good, beleivable reason that works in ANY possible universe?  how does THAt affect you if all you want is for them to be available?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 20 novembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[Ryzaki]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Because in some cases I don't want every character to only romance me because I said, "You have a nice "something".

I'd like some of them to make a pass at me, without me flirting with them. Like with Tali.

My problem is all 8 of them. Or 4 of them. Within the same playthrough. It's annoying. I'm already annoyed as is.

I also have a problem with Shepard activating all 8 within the same ship.

So you want to not be annoyed...but be unwilling to have to initate the romance first is what you're saying? Despite being already annoyed.

Huh.

Can't help you there.

I'd rather get all 8 and have to initate whichever romance Shep wanted.

I got annoyed at Tali hitting on my Shep despite him giving her absolutely no sign he had any feelings at all for
her and being in a relationship already that she knew about. I'm annoyed by Shiala hitting on my Shep and the only way to avoid it is to either kill her or kill most of the colonists, I'm annoyed at Parsini kissing my Shep on the cheek and him being unable to avoid it or express disinterest, I'm annoyed at every other Asari getting all up in my Shep's personal space and being unable to go "No.".

You at least have the ability to say no or not interested.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Meh. I think that if Ashley was holding back on anything with Femshep but it becomes available in ME3, she'll have held back due to religious reasons.

[TMA LIVE]

Another thing is realism for whatever it's worth in ME (which ain't much). Like Shepard just happens to have 4 men who are interested in him on the same ship. Same with Femshep having 4 woman. Unless more people in the future don't care about sexuality anymore, and thus the majority really is bi in the galaxy.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 20 novembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Xilizhra]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Another thing is realism for whatever it's worth in ME (which ain't much). Like Shepard just happens to have 4 men who are interested in him on the same ship. Same with Femshep having 4 woman. Unless more people in the future don't care about sexuality anymore.

Several of those won't be human.