25715 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Because it's more realistic.

ME shows time and time again realism doesn't matter when it comes to availability of LIs. 90% of ManShep's female squadmate being into him? Check! Not caring at all about Shep's actions & morals, even if he's a serial killer woman beater? Check! Not caring at all about Shep's looks? Check. So don't even start with the 'realism' argument lol

Not to mention the highly realistic romances with species that aren't even mammals.

[FoxHound109]

All characters being bi is unrealistic, but all L.I. options being available to straight Shepard isn't.

[slimgrin]

maxernst wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Because it's more realistic.

ME shows time and time again realism doesn't matter when it comes to availability of LIs. 90% of ManShep's female squadmate being into him? Check! Not caring at all about Shep's actions & morals, even if he's a serial killer woman beater? Check! Not caring at all about Shep's looks? Check. So don't even start with the 'realism' argument lol

Not to mention the highly realistic romances with species that aren't even mammals.

Realism is the wrong word to use. Credibility, believability - this is what artists and authors must always consider.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

I think what is being ignored is that every character needs a degree of internal logic to be credible. Switching sexual orientation on the fly compromises this.

Yet you have no problems with defying 'internal logic' when it comes to heterosexual romances.

FoxHound109 wrote...

All characters being bi is unrealistic, but all L.I. options being available to straight Shepard isn't.

Yes it is...or don't straight people have standards when it comes to morality, physical appearance, etc?

I don't know...I'm not straight.  I know I have standards.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 08:20 .

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

Realism is the wrong word to use. Credibility, believability - this is what artists and authors must always consider.

And they didn't care at all about credibility and believability when it was about making quadrillion women available for ManShep no matter if he's the most physically unattractive & evil being in the world. And nobody complained. But when it comes to sexuality, suddenly the credibility is a huge deal in LIs' availability. Gimme a break

[syllogi]

slimgrin wrote...

maxernst wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Because it's more realistic.

ME shows time and time again realism doesn't matter when it comes to availability of LIs. 90% of ManShep's female squadmate being into him? Check! Not caring at all about Shep's actions & morals, even if he's a serial killer woman beater? Check! Not caring at all about Shep's looks? Check. So don't even start with the 'realism' argument lol

Not to mention the highly realistic romances with species that aren't even mammals.

Realism is the wrong word to use. Credibility, believability - this is what artists and authors must always consider.

As a real person who is sexually attracted to both genders, I do not find your stance credible or believable.

In your perfect video game romance system, how many characters would be allowed to be bisexual?  Or do you just want that not to be an option at all?  

[slimgrin]

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Realism is the wrong word to use. Credibility, believability - this is what artists and authors must always consider.

And they didn't care at all about credibility and believability when it was about making quadrillion women available for ManShep no matter if he's the most physically unattractive & evil being in the world. And nobody complained. But when it comes to sexuality, suddenly the credibility is a huge deal in LIs' availability. Gimme a break

Actually I do have a problem with Bioware consistently implementing romance via your squad/team mates. If anything, it should be done when Shepard is planet hopping and meeting all kinds of different people. But that's my whole point: they aren't properly weavng this element into a coherant experience for the player, they're just serving romances up on platter. Too convenient.

[FoxHound109]

jlb524 wrote...

Yes it is...or don't straight people have standards when it comes to morality, physical appearance, etc?

I don't know...I'm not straight.  I know I have standards.

I was being sarcastic. 

Let's talk credibility for a moment: if you want to talk about credibility in Mass Effect then you should probably consider that there shouldn't be nearly as many L.I.s are there are in GENERAL. These people are out to stop a sentient race of machines hellbent on destroying the galaxy and killing all organic life within it. I think under those circumstances the idea of romance and falling in love would probably not even be a priority to begin with. But let's ignore that bit and focus on something that is even less credible: not a single one of the recruitable characters is involved in any relationship whatsoever. Why can't Ashley have a boyfriend outside of the Normandy? Why isn't Kaidan married? Why doesn't Shepard him/herself have somebody back home on Earth? 

The point is that when it comes to the romances, credibility isn't exactly what Bioware is shooting for. To think that making all L.I.'s bisexual "ruins credibility" is kind of like complaining that you're getting too much of a tan when you're in a spaceship flying straight into the sun. Priorities people. Priorities.

[maxernst]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I think what is being ignored is that every character needs a degree of internal logic to be credible. Switching sexual orientation on the fly compromises this.

Yet you have no problems with defying 'internal logic' when it comes to heterosexual romances.

FoxHound109 wrote...

All characters being bi is unrealistic, but all L.I. options being available to straight Shepard isn't.

Yes it is...or don't straight people have standards when it comes to morality, physical appearance, etc?

I don't know...I'm not straight.  I know I have standards.

Apparently, straight people don't care what species they're having sex with either, as long as its opposite gendered.

Oops...sorry foxhound, missed sarcasm explained in later post.

Modifié par maxernst, 20 novembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...
Actually I do have a problem with Bioware consistently implementing romance via your squad/team mates. If anything, it should be done when Shepard is planet hopping and meeting all kinds of different people. But that's my whole point: they aren't properly weavng this element into a coherant experience for the player, they're just serving romances up on platter. Too convenient.

Why not complain in the other romance threads then?  Why take your battle here?

That's just how Bioware does it...period.  The issue has nothing to do with sexuality.

But tell me which one of these scenarios seems unfair:

Senario 1:  

     Heterosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.
     Homosexual PCs:  Are restricted by gender for most LIs.  No other realistic restrictions beyond that.

Scenario 2:

     Heterosexual PCs:  Restricted from romancing LIs based on realistic restrictions, possibly including:  gender,                                               personality, morality, appearance.
     Homosexual PCs:  Restricted from romancing LIs based on realistic restrictions, possibly including:  gender,                                               personality, morality, appearance.

Scenario 3:

     Heterosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.
     Homosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

Too convenient.

It's more of a design choice. They wanted romances to be fun fanservice addition to the main game everyone can quickly access, have fun and get a "yay a love scene! Now let's destroy the Reapers my LI!". Everyone apart from gay players it seemed. So I'm glad they're fixing the inconsistency of their original design decision in ME3.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Actually I do have a problem with Bioware consistently implementing romance via your squad/team mates. If anything, it should be done when Shepard is planet hopping and meeting all kinds of different people. But that's my whole point: they aren't properly weavng this element into a coherant experience for the player, they're just serving romances up on platter. Too convenient.

Why not complain in the other romance threads then?  Why take your battle here?

That's just how Bioware does it...period.  The issue has nothing to do with sexuality.

But tell me which one of these scenarios seems unfair:

Senario 1:  

     Heterosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.
     Homosexual PCs:  Are restricted by gender for most LIs.  No other realistic restrictions beyond that.

Scenario 2:

     Heterosexual PCs:  Restricted from romancing LIs based on realistic restrictions, possibly including:  gender,                                               personality, morality, appearance.
     Homosexual PCs:  Restricted from romancing LIs based on realistic restrictions, possibly including:  gender,                                               personality, morality, appearance.

Scenario 3:

     Heterosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.
     Homosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 novembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[shepskisaac]

slimgrin wrote...

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Too late for that. They'll have 1 gay character at the very best. And 1 LI option ain't enough when other players had so much more in the entire trilogy.

[Abispa]

All Bioware has done with DA2 is establish while most of the people in Thedas aren't bisexual, a large percentage of the heroes who can kill hundreds of bad guys, demons, mages, and high dragons are. I mean, if you can kill a high dragon with up to three of your bestemest buddies and a dog, the least incredible thing you can do is get some snuggle-bunnies with someone of the same gender.

I see no reason why Shepard can be at least as amazing as Hawke.

And, for the record, I am all for Bioware making straight and gay exclusive characters, but they themselves have presented the "all Bi" option as a way to get the most bang for their buck (probably because VA is expensive and writers don't work for free). It ain't perfect, but at least it allows players to choose their LIs through personality rather than solely on sexual persuasion. This frees up the writers from having to write their characters as being "gay enough" or worrying about being too stereotypical. Now the player can choose a promiscuous, a religious, an evil, or a dinosaur LI and better tell their character's story.

The creators of ME have already said they aren't using the "all Bi" option in ME3 anyway, and no one is saying that isn't their right. If a game makers really wants to assign specific characters to limited options they are free to do so. Thus it doesn't offend me that the Witcher is a male womanizer. Bioware and Bethesda have said they want to allow more options for various persuasion. That is THEIR artistic and creative vision, and it will include ME3 to a limited degree. I choose to support this and hope for more options in the future.

[slimgrin]

IsaacShep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Too late for that. They'll have 1 gay character at the very best. And 1 LI option ain't enough when other players had so much more in the entire trilogy.

Hmm. I suppose you're right. The loveboat in space does give easy access to romance options, and they can't change it now. Perhaps in future titles. And then they can properly implement S/S romance as well.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Actually I do have a problem with Bioware consistently implementing romance via your squad/team mates. If anything, it should be done when Shepard is planet hopping and meeting all kinds of different people. But that's my whole point: they aren't properly weavng this element into a coherant experience for the player, they're just serving romances up on platter. Too convenient.

Why not complain in the other romance threads then?  Why take your battle here?

That's just how Bioware does it...period.  The issue has nothing to do with sexuality.

But tell me which one of these scenarios seems unfair:

Senario 1:  

     Heterosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.
     Homosexual PCs:  Are restricted by gender for most LIs.  No other realistic restrictions beyond that.

Scenario 2:

     Heterosexual PCs:  Restricted from romancing LIs based on realistic restrictions, possibly including:  gender,                                               personality, morality, appearance.
     Homosexual PCs:  Restricted from romancing LIs based on realistic restrictions, possibly including:  gender,                                               personality, morality, appearance.

Scenario 3:

     Heterosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.
     Homosexual PCs:  Have access to any LI added to the game with no realistic restrictions.

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Your Scenario 4 is my Scenario 2.

I asked you which seemed most unfair, not which you prefer. 

[eroguro]

I think for the most part all of the characters who have already been straight for two games should remain as such. Not because "Lol not everyone can be bi." But it seems odd to suddenly have that option, perhaps? Maybe one or two being bisexual wouldn't be so bad, but everyone single one? Eh I am not for that.

LI wise, I feel like Fem!Shepard has more options no matter whether she is going for a same-sex or a heterosexual standing based on the player preference. Male!Shepard has hardly anyone, at least in my humble opinion. I also feel that he doesn't have much of a choice for a relationship with an alien partner who isn't female. It would be nice to get some more alien male LI's without thwarting the ones of the original games.

Ah well, one can dream, no?

Modifié par eroguro, 20 novembre 2011 - 09:04 .

[FoxHound109]

slimgrin wrote...

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Doesn't really solve the problem of the straight Shepard having about a billion L.I.'s.

[slimgrin]

FoxHound109 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Doesn't really solve the problem of the straight Shepard having about a billion L.I.'s.

Equal opportunity romance? No gender left behind?

No thanks.

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 novembre 2011 - 09:10 .

[shepskisaac]

eroguro wrote...

Maybe one or two being bisexual wouldn't be so bad, but everyone single one? Eh I am not for that.

It's not like anyone expect BioWare to make every past LI available. Everyone know it's simply impossible at this point, even if for the fact most of them won't be squadmates so there wouldn't even be time to start a new romance (of any kind). But yes, at least some/few would be very welcomed and is what we realistically hope for.

eroguro wrote...
LI wise, I feel like Fem!Shepard has more options no matter whether she is going for a same-sex or a heterosexual standing based on the player preference. Male!Shepard has hardly anyone, at least in my humble opinion. I also feel that he doesn't have much of a choice for a relationship with an alien partner who isn't female. It would be nice to get some more alien male LI's without thwarting the ones of the original games.

Ah well, one can dream, no?

Straight ManShep: Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Tali, Kelly + Consort sex + Samara/Morinth/Shiala/Gianna flirting

Straight FemShep: Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, Garrus

Lesbian FemShep: Liara, Kelly + Consort sex + Samara/Morinth/Shiala flirting

Gay ManShep:

[FoxHound109]

slimgrin wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Doesn't really solve the problem of the straight Shepard having about a billion L.I.'s.

Equal opportunity romance? No gender left behind?

No thanks.

No, you missunderstand me. Making a few gay L.I.s doesn't add the credibility of the romances since manShep/femShep would still have about a billion romances they can become involved in. "Credibility" would still be in question.

[jlb524]

FoxHound109 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Scenario 4. Make certain NPC's gay. Problem solved.

Doesn't really solve the problem of the straight Shepard having about a billion L.I.'s.

It would if it follows my Scenario 2 (limit all Shepards based on realistic criteria like gender, appearance, morality, etc.).

But slimgrin's still ignoring my question.

[FoxHound109]

jlb524 wrote...

*Snip*

But slimgrin's still ignoring my question.

Oh, I know your second scenario fixes it. I'm simply pointing out that adding exclusive gay L.I.s into the series this late is not really going to do much to save its "credibility" when it comes to romances. 

[jlb524]

FoxHound109 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

*Snip*

But slimgrin's still ignoring my question.

Oh, I know your second scenario fixes it. I'm simply pointing out that adding exclusive gay L.I.s into the series this late is not really going to do much to save its "credibility" when it comes to romances. 

Yeah, you're right.

The straight romances will still lack credibility due to all the things we've been repeating that go ignored.

The gay-only romances would suffer from the same credibility issues.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 novembre 2011 - 09:29 .