25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Cartims]

I don't know why everyone keeps complaining that s/s romance will hurt the fabulous writing in the ME series, I stayed faithful to Liara with my Fem Shep in ME2, I was treated like a prostitute and had to wipe Jacob's drool off of my armor.

Good Writing....I Think NOT!!!!

[Servo to the bitter end]

I got the impression that Jacob wasn't the one drooling in that scene...

That said, I think they've learned from that mistake.

[Siansonea]

 Yeah, I think Jacob was rather taciturn myself. FemShep, on the other hand—girl, what did the Lazarus Project do to you? 

[Cartims]

TommyServo wrote...

I got the impression that Jacob wasn't the one drooling in that scene...

That said, I think they've learned from that mistake.

Exactly, that's is why the inclustion of s/s romance.....let's all enjoy the game now!!!

[Siansonea]

And actually, the FemShep voice acting with Jacob raises a good point: BioWare needs to recognize that just because a character is a potential LI, Shepard shouldn't approach all dialog with that character from the standpoint that they WILL be an LI. Plenty of us like to talk to everyone on the ship, and only romance our chosen character. And some of us like to be nice without giving the NPCs the wrong idea. So no more "hiya big boy!" voice acting from Jennifer Hale, please, unless she's about to get hot and heavy with her beau.

[Erani]

Siansonea II wrote...

...I don't think anyone here is advocating the Gay Toggle idea, but if anyone ever does—please discuss it rationally and dispassionately. It is related to the implementation topic, unfortunately, but theoretically anyone who is posting in this thread is a supporter of the inclusion (as per Chris Priestly's forum guidelines) and not an adversary, merely a person with a different opinion who should be treated fairly.

I haven't seen any pro-gay toggle arguments in this thread yet. If at some point someone does, I'll ignore it but we saw what happened in the old s/s thread. Gay Toggle discussions became race toggle/straight toggle debates most of the time...Yeah, not good.  So yes, gay toggle is somewhat related to implementation but should be treated as potentially flammable material.

Personally, I find the gay toggle idea quite distasteful.

[Maugrim]

Siansonea II wrote...

And actually, the FemShep voice acting with Jacob raises a good point: BioWare needs to recognize that just because a character is a potential LI, Shepard shouldn't approach all dialog with that character from the standpoint that they WILL be an LI. Plenty of us like to talk to everyone on the ship, and only romance our chosen character. And some of us like to be nice without giving the NPCs the wrong idea. So no more "hiya big boy!" voice acting from Jennifer Hale, please, unless she's about to get hot and heavy with her beau.

+1

I swear I wish I could've rolled up a newspaper and bopped my FemShepard's on the nose with a stern "No!" everytime she used that female dog in heat voice for Jacob. I mean I like Jacob but it's hard to get past that everygame!

[jlb524]

I still stand by the 'all bi LI' thing, as I think it's the most fair overall. At least, I can see how it benefits 'our side' (those who want s/s LIs and the choice for who they get) and have yet to see how it's a detriment to those that only do o/s romances, as each character will still be available for an o/s romance and the s/s content will be optional (as it always is).

I'm just not sure how feasible this would be in ME3, given the amount of past LIs in the game, but I support it in theory.

[AngelicMachinery]

Aurellia wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

No,  seriously,  just no.  If you want the "Gay Agenda" **** storm to roll through bioware again this is just a bad idea.  I know your trying to help and lessen the divide between two groups which really shouldn't be divided in the first place.  the thing is though,  people won't learn how to be sympathetic from a game and truthfully it'll just end up making the game look preachy.  Sure,  there are places to be preachy and I'm a rather vocal member of community...  but,  people don't want a soap box in their entertainment.  They want to sit around,  shoot some husks,  seduce the person of their choice (of any gender that they please), and hopefully come out on top with a happy ending.

I also despise the term "Discount Lesbian."  It just seems horribly judgemental.

I'm not saying make it preachy.  I'm saying give us awesome well written trilogy spanning romances for 2 MM and 2 FF.  The presence of those romances will provide enough of a teaching moment for those who wish to experience it.  No soap box, just quality entertainment.

I'm just saying that to get this give a little.  Don't insist that all LIs be bisexual, that seems to be the biggest fear of the other side.  I don't think we want that anyway as it would water down resources (ie the same effort spent on 4 romances vs 8 will mean that the 8 have half the content.)

I think there is room for a win win here.

As for discount lesbian, as a lesbian myself i don't find it offensive.  It's a trope from the tropes site:

http://tvtropes.org/...iscountLesbians

I loved the Liara romance but Bioware went to great lengths to try to turn her into a discount lesbian by stupid attempts to claim the relationship wasn't "really" same sex because the Asari are mono gendered.  That pissed me off to no end.  But as a feminist there are aspects of the Liara romance that bugged me in that having her having significant T&A and pandering to the male watching two cute lesbians mindset.

I want woman on woman action that more reflects real lesbian relationships.  Liara alone just feels like a bit of a cop out.

I’ve never insisted in the everyone is Bi method,  but,  if it happened it’s not going to bother me.  I just want everyone be they  bi, gay, straight  to have some romantic content in the game.  I’m not really all that hugely picky just give everyone a piece of the cake.  Hell,  maybe in later games we can get the T of LGBT involved and get some solid trans content and not the “Oh so funny” brothel characters.  That may be a **** storm…  though, we did have Edwina I‘m not sure the general populace is ready for that.

As for discount lesbian,  I thought you were using it in a more general way not something off of TV tropes.  I despise when people make judgments along the lines “Well they just aren’t gay enough for me.”  What the hell does that even mean?  I suppose that’s not really here or there though.

I never really thought of Liara as TnA,  she was dressed rather conservatively and wasn’t really built with any heavy curves.  She was cute,  yes,  but I don’t think she was made for titilation anymore than any of the other characters were.  Kaidan was gorgeous and Ashley was easy on the eyes while still remaining tough (which is nice.)

I’m also not sure what a “real lesbian relationship” is.  Is there more to it than two women liking/loving each other and engaging in certain coital activities?    How does one determine her lesbian level?  Are there tests?  Should I study? 

[Siansonea]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And actually, the FemShep voice acting with Jacob raises a good point: BioWare needs to recognize that just because a character is a potential LI, Shepard shouldn't approach all dialog with that character from the standpoint that they WILL be an LI. Plenty of us like to talk to everyone on the ship, and only romance our chosen character. And some of us like to be nice without giving the NPCs the wrong idea. So no more "hiya big boy!" voice acting from Jennifer Hale, please, unless she's about to get hot and heavy with her beau.

+1

I swear I wish I could've rolled up a newspaper and bopped my FemShepard's on the nose with a stern "No!" everytime she used that female dog in heat voice for Jacob. I mean I like Jacob but it's hard to get past that everygame!

The irony is that one line "I'm more interested in just talking for a bit" is the main offender, and she can then go on to be a complete beeyotch to Jacob. Her first line to open up conversation with Jacob is much more neutral-sounding. It's as if the voice director told Hale "okay, this is the line you'll be saying if you want to pursue romance with Jacob". And it doesn't help that Hale's voice is kind of naturally sexy anyway. 

[TheMarshal]

jlb524 wrote...

I still stand by the 'all bi LI' thing, as I think it's the most fair overall. At least, I can see how it benefits 'our side' (those who want s/s LIs and the choice for who they get) and have yet to see how it's a detriment to those that only do o/s romances, as each character will still be available for an o/s romance and the s/s content will be optional (as it always is).

I'm just not sure how feasible this would be in ME3, given the amount of past LIs in the game, but I support it in theory.

I support it, too, since there are all these great characters that we've fallen in love with over the past two games, and to be able to finally have the chance to romance them in ME3 would be far more satisfying than:

Here is your gay LI.
Enjoy.

Love,
BW

Modifié par TheMarshal, 16 juin 2011 - 07:10 .

[Aurellia]

jlb524 wrote...

I still stand by the 'all bi LI' thing, as I think it's the most fair overall. At least, I can see how it benefits 'our side' (those who want s/s LIs and the choice for who they get) and have yet to see how it's a detriment to those that only do o/s romances, as each character will still be available for an o/s romance and the s/s content will be optional (as it always is).

I'm just not sure how feasible this would be in ME3, given the amount of past LIs in the game, but I support it in theory.

If I count correctly there are 8 Romance options in ME1 and ME2 (Liara w/female, Liara w/male, Ashely, Kaiden, Miranda, Thane, Tali, Garrus).

If we make them all bi that requires writing 6 additional same sex romance options.  In my heart of hearts I'd love this too, but given the practicalities and time constraints I'd rather get fewer higher quality romance options than having everyone be BI.  From a progressiveness standpoint, I really liked that DA2 made everyone bi, but I hated the fact that there were so few LIs overall and that they seemed more shallow/generic in some ways than the ones in ME1-2, despite some cool things like having your LI come to your house and live with you.

I guess the difficulty is if you don't make 'em all BI then who do you pick?

[AngelicMachinery]

Siansonea II wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And actually, the FemShep voice acting with Jacob raises a good point: BioWare needs to recognize that just because a character is a potential LI, Shepard shouldn't approach all dialog with that character from the standpoint that they WILL be an LI. Plenty of us like to talk to everyone on the ship, and only romance our chosen character. And some of us like to be nice without giving the NPCs the wrong idea. So no more "hiya big boy!" voice acting from Jennifer Hale, please, unless she's about to get hot and heavy with her beau.

+1

I swear I wish I could've rolled up a newspaper and bopped my FemShepard's on the nose with a stern "No!" everytime she used that female dog in heat voice for Jacob. I mean I like Jacob but it's hard to get past that everygame!

The irony is that one line "I'm more interested in just talking for a bit" is the main offender, and she can then go on to be a complete beeyotch to Jacob. Her first line to open up conversation with Jacob is much more neutral-sounding. It's as if the voice director told Hale "okay, this is the line you'll be saying if you want to pursue romance with Jacob". And it doesn't help that Hale's voice is kind of naturally sexy anyway. 

oh Bastila...<3

[TheMarshal]

Aurellia wrote...

If I count correctly there are 8 Romance options in ME1 and ME2 (Liara w/female, Liara w/male, Ashely, Kaiden, Miranda, Thane, Tali, Garrus).

If we make them all bi that requires writing 6 additional same sex romance options.  In my heart of hearts I'd love this too, but given the practicalities and time constraints I'd rather get fewer higher quality romance options than having everyone be BI.  From a progressiveness standpoint, I really liked that DA2 made everyone bi, but I hated the fact that there were so few LIs overall and that they seemed more shallow/generic in some ways than the ones in ME1-2, despite some cool things like having your LI come to your house and live with you.

I guess the difficulty is if you don't make 'em all BI then who do you pick?

I brought this up earlier, but how different do you think writing those LI's as new s/s romance options would be different than writing those LI's as new o/s romance options?  They'll obviously allow players to initiate romances with old LI's in ME3, so aside from one or two different lines of dialogue, how much extra work would it be to include a s/s option?

eta - You're forgetting Jack and Jacob.  So 10 total romances, each of which would have to have a "starter" romance dialogue path in ME3 for single Sheps.  That doesn't include any new LI's being added.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 16 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[LiquidGrape]

Siansonea II wrote...
And it doesn't help that Hale's voice is kind of naturally sexy anyway. 

You were saying...?

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 16 juin 2011 - 07:18 .

[Aurellia]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I’ve never insisted in the everyone is Bi method,  but,  if it happened it’s not going to bother me.  I just want everyone be they  bi, gay, straight  to have some romantic content in the game.  I’m not really all that hugely picky just give everyone a piece of the cake.  Hell,  maybe in later games we can get the T of LGBT involved and get some solid trans content and not the “Oh so funny” brothel characters.  That may be a **** storm…  though, we did have Edwina I‘m not sure the general populace is ready for that.

As for discount lesbian,  I thought you were using it in a more general way not something off of TV tropes.  I despise when people make judgments along the lines “Well they just aren’t gay enough for me.”  What the hell does that even mean?  I suppose that’s not really here or there though.

I never really thought of Liara as TnA,  she was dressed rather conservatively and wasn’t really built with any heavy curves.  She was cute,  yes,  but I don’t think she was made for titilation anymore than any of the other characters were.  Kaidan was gorgeous and Ashley was easy on the eyes while still remaining tough (which is nice.)

I’m also not sure what a “real lesbian relationship” is.  Is there more to it than two women liking/loving each other and engaging in certain coital activities?    How does one determine her lesbian level?  Are there tests?  Should I study? 

Offtopic, but there is a vast amount of literature discussing Butch/Femme and other patterns in lesbian relationships.  A lot of it gets conflated with various feminist theories du jour.  What I was really trying to draw a contrast from was the hormonal male image of two hawt women licking each other to the fact that most lesbians I know tend to also reject other gender normative behavior for various reasons.

In some sense a buzz cut FemShep /Jack in a teeshirt pairing would be more in line what I see among my friends and at events like the ****** March.  Femmes seem to be less common in the activist lesbian community.

But then I'm a femme so who knows how many of us are really out there.  I just find myself in the minority most of the time:)

ObTopic:  For this reason I am thinking Jack could be a very interesting SS LI if it was handled properly.

Modifié par Aurellia, 16 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[Cartims]

Now I've read everything...*bangs head on wall*, am I butch now?

[Siansonea]

AngelicMachinery wrote...


I’ve never insisted in the everyone is Bi method,  but,  if it happened it’s not going to bother me.  I just want everyone be they  bi, gay, straight  to have some romantic content in the game.  I’m not really all that hugely picky just give everyone a piece of the cake.  Hell,  maybe in later games we can get the T of LGBT involved and get some solid trans content and not the “Oh so funny” brothel characters.  That may be a **** storm…  though, we did have Edwina I‘m not sure the general populace is ready for that. 

To be honest, T is a lot different than LGB, since it's an identity/self issue rather than a sexuality/partner issue. Naturally there is some overlap, but for the most part I don't think we would necessarily know if a person we're talking to in the game is transgendered or not. If the person transitioned long ago, especially if they were able to get treatment before the end of puberty, how would we know? Not really a relationship issue in any case. I personally decided that Pressly was transgendered in my games. I don't know why I picked Pressly, I essentially picked somebody at random. I don't think BioWare needs to underline transgender inclusion in Mass Effect though, because I imagine that from a social standpoint it would be a non-issue, and from a medical standpoint it would be all but invisible to Shepard.

[jlb524]

Aurellia wrote...

If I count correctly there are 8 Romance options in ME1 and ME2 (Liara w/female, Liara w/male, Ashely, Kaiden, Miranda, Thane, Tali, Garrus).

If we make them all bi that requires writing 6 additional same sex romance options.  In my heart of hearts I'd love this too, but given the practicalities and time constraints I'd rather get fewer higher quality romance options than having everyone be BI.  From a progressiveness standpoint, I really liked that DA2 made everyone bi, but I hated the fact that there were so few LIs overall and that they seemed more shallow/generic in some ways than the ones in ME1-2, despite some cool things like having your LI come to your house and live with you.

I agree with this, but if they can do it without watering it down...great.

I don't really agree that the DA2 Lis were generic or shallow (especially compared with ME romances).  To begin with, there was tons more dialog/banter for the DA2 romances beyond the "three talks on the Normandy then love scene" thing we see in ME.  I think having fewer LIs was actually a good thing and, remember, it's only one game...ME has more LIs b/c it spans 2 games.

Aurellia wrote...
I guess the difficulty is if you don't make 'em all BI then who do you pick?

That's in BW's hands now.

LiquidGrape wrote...

You were saying...?

Oh mama.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[Aurellia]

TheMarshal wrote...

I brought this up earlier, but how different do you think writing those LI's as new s/s romance options would be different than writing those LI's as new o/s romance options?  They'll obviously allow players to initiate romances with old LI's in ME3, so aside from one or two different lines of dialogue, how much extra work would it be to include a s/s option?

eta - You're forgetting Jack and Jacob.  So 10 total romances, each of which would have to have a "starter" romance dialogue path in ME3 for single Sheps.  That doesn't include any new LI's being added.

I know I forgot some of them.

If you take the easy route and use the same dialog for SS and OS then sure it's not a big effort.  I want more.  I want the same sex romance to take on its own flavor and story arc.

With Jack I'd like to see a very different dynamic develop and even the sex scene play out differently.  With Ashley I'd like to have the reasons it took her so long to open up to her as another woman vs if Shepard had been a male.

I want writing that speaks to us as lesbians and gays and is meaningful.  If it was just the same dialog with a few tweaks then I can get that already with mods and while it is something it isn't as deeply satisfying as something written specifically for us.

Hence I want fewer deeper same sex relationships rather than recycled dialog.  Ok I'll take that for the remaining ones if pressed but then I'm just being greedy:innocent:

[Siansonea]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
And it doesn't help that Hale's voice is kind of naturally sexy anyway. 

You were saying...?

Hilarious! But to be fair, this is mostly the romance-specific dialog. But yeah, cat on a hot tin roof...

[Sherbet Lemon]

Aurellia wrote..

I guess the difficulty is if you don't make 'em all BI then who do you pick?

*coughsAshleyMirandaKasumicoughs*

Oh excuse me. I got a little something in my throat.  I think that is one of the inherent difficulties in that regard as far as whom shall be chosen. *waves all-bi support flag*  That being said, while I love and adore Liara (see icon), I'm really am hoping for at least one human as a same sex love interest something fierce.  It's been echoed more than enough times on the forum that the message of the only same sex relationship being between Liara and femShep "others" lesbian relationships in a way that makes me uncomfortable.  I'm sure that wasn't the intent, but there it is.

[bleetman]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
And it doesn't help that Hale's voice is kind of naturally sexy anyway. 

You were saying...?

I'm growingly convinced they had to install special air conditioning units into the recording studio to moderate the heat.

'Hold up a moment, your voice is melting the equipment again'

...

Modifié par bleetman, 16 juin 2011 - 07:32 .

[Aurellia]

Cartims wrote...

Now I've read everything...*bangs head on wall*, am I butch now?

OMG you have no idea how endlessly that question gets debated.   LOL.

The person who should answer that question is you:)