25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

EDIT: Nevermind.

Modifié par Abispa, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Abispa]

Pennyball wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Rather than the BI option I'd rather see my Femshep turned down by other characters who are exclusively gay. The resulting action could then open up dialog options about why that character chose his/her path and the impact it's had on their life. This way Bioware would be commenting on a topic largely avoided in the industry, tackling the issue head on, which is more important than granting everyone 'options'.

"Choose' her/his path?
So you can choose, to be gay now 

Only if "choice" is a way to keep players from romancing LIs of the same gender, it seems.

[Abispa]

The only explicitly homophobic moment in the series was Nef's journal entry in ME2 where she describes herself as being a "freak" because she loves Morinth. Not because Morinth was an alien, but because she was a "girl like me."

Of course, Omega really never gave the impression that it was a society noted for it's advanced thinking and evolved sense of ethic.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

Rather than the BI option I'd rather see my Femshep turned down by other characters who are exclusively gay. The resulting action could then open up dialog options about why that character chose his/her path and the impact it's had on their life. This way Bioware would be commenting on a topic largely avoided in the industry, tackling the issue head on, which is more important than granting everyone 'options'.

You completely miss what the effect of granting everyone equal options has on people, especially LGBT people.

It's saying sexuality isn't important (which I like).  It's treating gay and straight PCs fairly by giving them equal options (which I like).  It seems to send the message, 'hey, homosexual PCs deserve the same amount of options that the heterosexual ones always enjoy by default.'

I don't want sexuality made into a big deal period.  It shouldn't matter in an ideal world who you wish to sleep with.   That's the message I take away from this and I think that's better than them doing some 'after school special' and 'tackling the issues head on'.  Really, I need my video game to show me that sexual minorities are oppressed?  Yeah...okay...it's not like I experience that all the time or anything...

Modifié par jlb524, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Rather than the BI option I'd rather see my Femshep turned down by other characters who are exclusively gay. The resulting action could then open up dialog options about why that character chose his/her path and the impact it's had on their life. This way Bioware would be commenting on a topic largely avoided in the industry, tackling the issue head on, which is more important than granting everyone 'options'.

You completely miss what the effect of granting everyone equal options has on people, especially LGBT people.

It's saying sexuality isn't important (which I like).  It's treating gay and straight PCs fairly by giving them equal options (which I like).  It seems to send the message, 'hey, homosexual PCs deserve the same amount of options that the heterosexual ones always enjoy by default.'

I don't want sexuality made into a big deal period.  It shouldn't matter in an ideal world who you wish to sleep with.   That's the message I take away from this and I think that's better than them doing some 'after school special' and 'tackling the issues head on'.  Really, I need my video game to show me that sexual minorities are oppressed?  Yeah...okay...it's not like I experience that all the time or anything...

Which is an interesting view, because I always saw "giving the player options" being less of a focus than "telling a good story" in Bioware-style RPGs. Having a mix of exclusively gay, exclusively straight, and bisexual characters (as well as characters like Kasumi who have a sex life but are not attracted to Shep) gives the story more psychological realism, IMO. I say leave the "you can romance anyone, as anyone!" style of storytelling to the Fables and Skyrims of the RPG world.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

You completely miss what the effect of granting everyone equal options has on people, especially LGBT people.

It's saying sexuality isn't important (which I like).  It's treating gay and straight PCs fairly by giving them equal options (which I like).  It seems to send the message, 'hey, homosexual PCs deserve the same amount of options that the heterosexual ones always enjoy by default.'

I don't want sexuality made into a big deal period.  It shouldn't matter in an ideal world who you wish to sleep with.   That's the message I take away from this and I think that's better than them doing some 'after school special' and 'tackling the issues head on'.  Really, I need my video game to show me that sexual minorities are oppressed?  Yeah...okay...it's not like I experience that all the time or anything...

Then you're just advocating for escapism.

All literature is shaped by the time it was written, I see no reason Bioware shouldn't get it's hands dirty by addressing topics that affect us all today. Chances are they're just an old dillema taking another form. The Witcher 2 does this brilliantly and ME1 took risks as well, as anyone discussing family values and god with Ashley will know. 

~Edit~

Modifié par slimgrin, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Which is an interesting view, because I always saw "giving the player options" being less of a focus than "telling a good story" in Bioware-style RPGs. Having a mix of exclusively gay, exclusively straight, and bisexual characters (as well as characters like Kasumi who have a sex life but are not attracted to Shep) gives the story more psychological realism, IMO. I say leave the "you can romance anyone, as anyone!" style of storytelling to the Fables and Skyrims of the RPG world.

You can already romance anyone as just about anyone in a BioWare game.

The only restriction is gender.  Not morality, class, race, appearance, etc.

Hardly realistic.

The only difference between BW romances and the Fable and Skyrim ones is that the latter ones give you a ton of options but the romances themselves aren't very deep.  The latter gives you a few options, but the development of the romance is a hell of a lot richer.  It has nothing to do with realism, but breadth vs. depth.

I'm not saying that the PC should be able to romance anyone in a BW game (like, Kasumi...she's just not an option period).  I'm saying that of the handful of NPCs written as romance options, those should be available to all PCs.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:23 .

[Chun Hei]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Which is an interesting view, because I always saw "giving the player options" being less of a focus than "telling a good story" in Bioware-style RPGs. Having a mix of exclusively gay, exclusively straight, and bisexual characters (as well as characters like Kasumi who have a sex life but are not attracted to Shep) gives the story more psychological realism, IMO. I say leave the "you can romance anyone, as anyone!" style of storytelling to the Fables and Skyrims of the RPG world.

But how is making gender the ONLY limitation for LIs psychologically realtistic? Shepard can have sex with any LIs s/he wants with the only limit being his/her gender. A hard core xenophobe can romance Liara or Tali. Mordin's Magic Sex Gel allows him to violate established Quarian lore and sex Tali. Miranda can fall in love with a Shepard who hates Cerberus. Jack can fall in love with a goody two shoes. Garrus has sex with Shepard because she tells him to.

Bioware had all those "unrealistic" LIs and ME2 was considered one of the best games of the year. Why is m/m romance with Kaidan, Jacob or Garrus the romance that "ruins" it?

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...
Then you're just advocating for escapism.

Well, those that play heterosexual PCs get to enjoy their romantic escapism so it's only fair.

[Athayniel]

slimgrin wrote...
Then you're just advocating for escapism. 

And this is a problem how exactly? Folks who advocate for s/s romances in games are the last people who actually *need* the 'after school special' about sexual orientation. They just want it to be a good romance story with a character they like. Their idea of recognition isn't a spotlight, it's for it to be something not worth bringing up because it's just... normal.

[slimgrin]

I think internal logic should replace the term realism here. ME, DA, Skyrim, Tolkein, R.E. Howard - They all have it.

[Chun Hei]

It is NOT escapism! All of orgasms s/s critics have with their ME LIs were REAL, dammit!

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

I think internal logic should replace the term realism here. ME, DA, Skyrim, Tolkein, R.E. Howard - They all have it.

It changes nothing in regards to heterosexual romances in ME.  

They lack 'internal logic' as well.

You're arguments are still based on a double standard.

[Abispa]

Chun Hei wrote...

It is NOT escapism! All of orgasms s/s critics have with their ME LIs were REAL, dammit!

OMG! You used a COMMA! Finally!

[Chun Hei]

Yo! Abispa! SHUT UP!

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Which is an interesting view, because I always saw "giving the player options" being less of a focus than "telling a good story" in Bioware-style RPGs. Having a mix of exclusively gay, exclusively straight, and bisexual characters (as well as characters like Kasumi who have a sex life but are not attracted to Shep) gives the story more psychological realism, IMO. I say leave the "you can romance anyone, as anyone!" style of storytelling to the Fables and Skyrims of the RPG world.

You can already romance anyone as just about anyone in a BioWare game.

The only restriction is gender.  Not morality, class, race, appearance, etc.

Hardly realistic.

The only difference between BW romances and the Fable and Skyrim ones is that the latter ones give you a ton of options but the romances themselves aren't very deep.  The latter gives you a few options, but the development of the romance is a hell of a lot richer.  It has nothing to do with realism, but breadth vs. depth.

I'm not saying that the PC should be able to romance anyone in a BW game (like, Kasumi...she's just not an option period).  I'm saying that of the handful of NPCs written as romance options, those should be available to all PCs.

Morality actually can influence a relationship in Bio games - play DA:O, romance Leliana, desecrate her religion's equivalent of the Holy Grail, and see what happens. And race does play a role in that game as well - Alistair's romance subplot plays out differently depending on whether you're a human or non-human, for instance.

I agree with the breadth vs. depth comment, with the caveat that IMO, a relationship between characters in a story lacks authentic depth if it lacks psychological realism. That psychology, where it relates to sexuality, could vary in interesting ways from species to species, but it would be nice if it was internally consistent for the aliens and consistent with reality for the humans.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[jlb524]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I do hope you realize that nobody here is criticizing s/s relationships, just the "everyone should be bi" idea. How you can equate the two is beyond me.

You have to have some problem with s/s romances though.

You have no problem with LIs ignoring PC morality and romancing whomever, even if that's unrealistic or 'lacks internal logic'.  So, 'they are all wishy washy flakes' is fine, but 'all bi' is not?

There's some 'real' reason for the double standard.   

There's something fishy going on, as they say.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I think internal logic should replace the term realism here. ME, DA, Skyrim, Tolkein, R.E. Howard - They all have it.

It changes nothing in regards to heterosexual romances in ME.  

They lack 'internal logic' as well.

You're arguments are still based on a double standard.

My Lezshep ( heh, new term ) got turned down by both Jack and Samara. Irritating at first, but in the long run I admired the writers for it all the more.

I'm not gay, but I understand that you might not want to see this particular social issue drudged up, especially in a game, where entertainment is the primary value. But I long for games to cross over into a medium that gets respected as much as literature or movies. Avoiding tough issues isn't the way to do it.

Modifié par slimgrin, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

You have no problem with LIs ignoring PC morality and romancing whomever, even if that's unrealistic or 'lacks internal logic'.  So, 'they are all wishy washy flakes' is fine, but 'all bi' is not?

That's even more annoying, actually. But this is the s/s thread, not the "why does Tali want to risk her life for sexytimes when Shep has been hilariously evil right in front of her face" thread.

[Chun Hei]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

It is NOT escapism! All of orgasms s/s critics have with their ME LIs were REAL, dammit!

I do hope you realize that nobody here is criticizing s/s relationships, just the "everyone should be bi" idea. How you can equate the two is beyond me.

Because out of ALL the unbelievable aspects of Bioware LIs it is the "all bi" or "new s/s option with previous LIs" that seems bring out the cries for "realism" or "internal consistency." For the record I think the ME writers should be allowed to make the decision and they DID. Not every LI will be "bi." The leaked script indicates that there will be two "gay" LIs and perhaps two previous LIs who are now "bi."

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Morality actually can influence a relationship in Bio games - play DA:O, romance Leliana, desecrate her religion's equivalent of the Holy Grail, and see what happens. And race does play a role in that game as well - Alistair's romance subplot plays out differently depending on whether you're a human or non-human, for instance.

You missed the point.   In fact, the 'all bi' DA2 romances play out a bit differently based on gender.

Morality never prevents you from romancing a character.  Race never prevents you from romancing a character.  Dwarven women can still romance Alistair.  Complete douchy a-holes can romance Leliana.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
I agree with the breadth vs. depth comment, with the caveat that IMO, a relationship between characters in a story lacks authentic depth if it lacks psychological realism. That psychology, where it relates to sexuality, could vary in interesting ways from species to species - Asari might lack much of a concept of gender, for instance, or Asari could read as male to Turians (I remember that coming up way back when) - but it would be nice if it was internally consistent for the aliens and consistent with reality for the humans.

Women throwing themselves at Ugly Shepard lacks psychological realism.  The heterosexual romances are not realistic, psychologically realistic, internally consistent, etc. etc.  If you think they are then I don't know what else to say to you.  

Romances in BW games do not hold up to your standards...even the heterosexual ones.  So why all of a sudden must they hold these standards when we start talking about making more characters open to both genders?

slimgrin wrote...
My Lezshep ( heh, new term [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]) got turned down by both Jack and Samara. Irritating at first, but in the long run I admired the writers for it all the more.

I'm not gay, but I understand that you might not want to see this particular social issue drudged up, especially in game, where entertainment is the primary value. But I long for games to cross over into a medium that gets respected as much as literature or movies. Avoiding tough issues isn't the way to do it.

How does Jack/Samara turning down a lesbian Shepard add anything positive to the plight of lesbians across the globe, as a social issue?

Also, Samara turns down male Shepard too...she's just not a romance option period...which is fine.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:51 .