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[slimgrin]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Morality actually can influence a relationship in Bio games - play DA:O, romance Leliana, desecrate her religion's equivalent of the Holy Grail, and see what happens

My single run with DA:O and I tried like the devil to seduce her. But I disagreed about the sacred ashes part, and instead she ended up joining the maker. Now that is character integrity. Bioware games need more of this.

[syllogi]

slimgrin wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Morality actually can influence a relationship in Bio games - play DA:O, romance Leliana, desecrate her religion's equivalent of the Holy Grail, and see what happens

My single run with DA:O and I tried like the devil to seduce her. But I disagreed about the sacred ashes part, and instead she ended up joining the maker. Now that is character integrity. Bioware games need more of this.

Did you still applaud that character integrity when you met her in DA2?

The entire plot surrounding desecrating the Sacred Ashes in DA:O is ridiculous -- a Warden who does so doesn't have in game knowledge of the benefit of learning the Reaver specialization, they're just destroying a relic that is sacred to the most prominent religion in Ferelden on the say-so of a few insane cultists.

But to you, choosing to desecrate the ashes is "realistic," while the romances in DA2 break your suspension of disbelief.

Gotcha.

[Eustacia]

Tackling sexuality issues does not make it a dating sim. If anything it makes it a political sim in the eyes of the majority. Now I don't think that's such a bad thing, but it really depends on ME's universe's perspective on such. There is great opportunity here, not that they'll take it.

[jlb524]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Go read my posts again; you may notice that I approved of a mix of straight, bi, and gay relationships, as well as the fact that ME3 is taking this route. I understand that some characters in ME3 are s/s-only, and I have absolutely no problem with that.

And for the record, I generally tend to go for o/s romance in Bioware games, but I do in fact have a playthrough where I romanced Liara as a Femshep, and enjoyed it.

Please do not accuse me of being intolerant or homophobic when I quite clearly am not. I find it somewhat offensive.

I didn't accuse you of anything except applying double standards.

I don't know 'why' you are doing that and I didn't attempt to make a guess.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Morality actually can influence a relationship in Bio games - play DA:O, romance Leliana, desecrate her religion's equivalent of the Holy Grail, and see what happens. And race does play a role in that game as well - Alistair's romance subplot plays out differently depending on whether you're a human or non-human, for instance.

You missed the point.   In fact, the 'all bi' DA2 romances play out a bit differently based on gender.

Morality never prevents you from romancing a character.  Race never prevents you from romancing a character.  Dwarven women can still romance Alistair.  Complete douchy a-holes can romance Leliana.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
I agree with the breadth vs. depth comment, with the caveat that IMO, a relationship between characters in a story lacks authentic depth if it lacks psychological realism. That psychology, where it relates to sexuality, could vary in interesting ways from species to species - Asari might lack much of a concept of gender, for instance, or Asari could read as male to Turians (I remember that coming up way back when) - but it would be nice if it was internally consistent for the aliens and consistent with reality for the humans.

Women throwing themselves at Ugly Shepard lacks psychological realism.  The heterosexual romances are not realistic, psychologically realistic, internally consistent, etc. etc.  If you think they are then I don't know what else to say to you.  

Romances in BW games do not hold up to your standards...even the heterosexual ones.  So why all of a sudden must they hold these standards when we start talking about making more characters open to both genders?

DA:O characters are actually pretty good at basing romance/friendship on how closely you adhere to their code of morality. Leliana isn't going to romance you if she sees you being randomly evil, and she will actually try to kill you if you do things that are utterly opposed to her religion. Morrigan isn't going to romance a Warden who she sees as not invested in her well-being, Sten isn't going to befriend a Warden who doesn't show backbone and constantly disrespects his religion, and so on. The system isn't perfect (see also: gifts, the "Morrigan disapproves" mini-meme) but they actually tried to make that stuff work in DA:O.

(And re: race, Alistair actually dumps an Elf or Dwarf if he takes a certain spoilerrific career path and develops as a character in certain ways. Other character development can get him to stay with the Warden in sort of a concubine/mistress situation, but it absolutely changes how that relationship plays out.)

Now, on to ME3+,

While it would be cool if Bioware rigged up a facial beauty detection engine, I think that such technology is currently out of their reach. So we will have to live with ugly Shep Casanovas/Casanovettes for the time being.

And for the record, I don't think that the hetero relationships in ME are very internally consistent or psychologically realistic at all. Particularly bad offenders are the Talimance and the whole Virmire Survivor business from ME2, but Jack gets an honorable mention for the whole "creepy 'nice guy' wet dream" aspect. I am happy to discuss my various gripes with those, and have done so in the past. But once again, that's not what this thread is about.

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

[Xilizhra]

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

The ME universe does. LIs aren't a statistically accurate representation of the entire galaxy; if they were, they'd be mostly asari.

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
DA:O characters are actually pretty good at basing romance/friendship on how closely you adhere to their code of morality. Leliana isn't going to romance you if she sees you being randomly evil, and she will actually try to kill you if you do things that are utterly opposed to her religion. Morrigan isn't going to romance a Warden who she sees as not invested in her well-being, Sten isn't going to befriend a Warden who doesn't show backbone and constantly disrespects his religion, and so on. The system isn't perfect (see also: gifts, the "Morrigan disapproves" mini-meme) but they actually tried to make that stuff work in DA:O.

You can still play the system and romance them.  Leliana seeing you do something evil doesn't prevent you from romancing her like it should...you can still do it with gifts or by making it up to her by doing something good every once in awhile.  Same applies to Morrigan.  

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
(And re: race, Alistair actually dumps an Elf or Dwarf if he takes a certain spoilerrific career path and develops as a character in certain ways. Other character development can get him to stay with the Warden in sort of a concubine/mistress situation, but it absolutely changes how that relationship plays out.)

You can still go through the romance plot with him.  I don't care if it changes things about it...you can still do it.  That's my point.  Male characters couldn't even start the plot.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
And for the record, I don't think that the hetero relationships in ME are very internally consistent or psychologically realistic at all. Particularly bad offenders are the Talimance and the whole Virmire Survivor business from ME2, but Jack gets an honorable mention for the whole "creepy 'nice guy' wet dream" aspect. I am happy to discuss my various gripes with those, and have done so in the past. But once again, that's not what this thread is about.

So, why don't you complain about this in threads dedicated to the heterosexual romances?   I only see these complaints brought up in threads like these and they are used to justify limiting options to those who wish to play gay PCs.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

I don't think I've lost sight of your argument.  It comes down to 'realism'. 

I say these games should also have LIs that have tastes in their potential mate based on class, race, morality, etc. but it doesn't.  That is how the 'real world' acts.

Cthulhu42 wrote...
You began by saying I had a problem with s/s relationships. I inferred the rest by going off of that initial sentence. My apologies if I misunderstood, but your post wasn't very clear.

To me, it seems like you do have some problem with them or the realism double standard wouldn't exist.  I don't know what that is.

It could be many things and not 'homophobia'.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:17 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Xilizhra wrote...

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

The ME universe does. LIs aren't a statistically accurate representation of the entire galaxy; if they were, they'd be mostly asari.

LIs don't have to be representative of the galaxy, they just have to be representative of the people Shep could be expected to plausibly come into contact with and develop relationships with. I don't think the whole "the Normandy is just a statistical anomaly" type of thing would be particularly strong storyelling. If every single person on the Normandy had red hair, I would start to wonder A) why they all have red hair, why Tali's rocking the transparent helmet all of a sudden.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...


I say these games should also have LIs that have tastes in their potential mate based on class, race, morality, etc. but it doesn't.  That is how the 'real world' acts.

This is diversionary. We can't travel at FTL speeds so there shouldn't be realistic romance in the first place, etc.

What I want from you is an honest answer on whether digital nooky is more important than addressing social issues.

Modifié par slimgrin, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:18 .

[bas_kon]

And why straight males are so concern about gay people being represented in games all of a sudden?
I'm not straight myself and I don't give a damn, I don't want any awkward mention to something that for a lot of people IRL is not an issue.
I just want to have fun, and the same choices without having to mandatory play one sex or the other.

[syllogi]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


I say these games should also have LIs that have tastes in their potential mate based on class, race, morality, etc. but it doesn't.  That is how the 'real world' acts.

This is diversionary. We can't travel at FTL speeds so there shouldn't be realistic romance in the first place, etc.

What I want from you is an honest answer on whether digital nooky is more important than addressing social issues.

Writers can address social issues AND give everyone who wants digital nooky their own way a choice.  

If the option of playing a homosexual character in a game (who romances a bisexual LI) opens a heterosexual person's eyes to social issues, what does it matter that that that bisexual LI can also be romanced by an opposite gender player character?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

You can still play the system and romance them.  Leliana seeing you do something evil doesn't prevent you from romancing her like it should...you can still do it with gifts or by making it up to her by doing something good every once in awhile.  Same applies to Morrigan.  

Yeah, it's hard to model realistic human behavior with dialogue trees and a single like/dislike slider (go figure). Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to do that in a character-focused story.

jlb524 wrote...
You can still go through the romance plot with [Alistair].  I don't care if it changes things about it...you can still do it.  That's my point.  Male characters couldn't even start the plot.

The Dragon Age franchise: lacking in bisexual love interests. You heard it here first, people.

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
And for the record, I don't think that the hetero relationships in ME are very internally consistent or psychologically realistic at all. Particularly bad offenders are the Talimance and the whole Virmire Survivor business from ME2, but Jack gets an honorable mention for the whole "creepy 'nice guy' wet dream" aspect. I am happy to discuss my various gripes with those, and have done so in the past. But once again, that's not what this thread is about.

So, why don't you complain about this in threads dedicated to the heterosexual romances?   I only see these complaints brought up in threads like these and they are used to justify limiting options to those who wish to play gay PCs.

Because that gets teh banhammer. Ask me how I know. I like this thread because critical discussion of what does and doesn't work in terms of writing doesn't get you b&.

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

I don't think I've lost sight of your argument.  It comes down to 'realism'. 

I say these games should also have LIs that have tastes in their potential mate based on class, race, morality, etc. but it doesn't.  That is how the 'real world' acts.

Then it looks like we agree. Psychologically realistic relationships in Bioware games for everyone!

[ADLegend21]

TeenZombie wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


I say these games should also have LIs that have tastes in their potential mate based on class, race, morality, etc. but it doesn't.  That is how the 'real world' acts.

This is diversionary. We can't travel at FTL speeds so there shouldn't be realistic romance in the first place, etc.

What I want from you is an honest answer on whether digital nooky is more important than addressing social issues.

Writers can address social issues AND give everyone who wants digital nooky their own way a choice.  

If the option of playing a homosexual character in a game (who romances a bisexual LI) opens a heterosexual person's eyes to social issues, what does it matter that that that bisexual LI can also be romanced by an opposite gender player character?

+1

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

What I want from you is an honest answer on whether digital nooky is more important than addressing social issues.

You fail to understand that I think allowing digital nooky for homosexual PCs in equal amounts to what heterosexual PCs enjoy by default b/c they are a part of the 'special majority' is addressing a social issue and in a positive way.

The social issue is the reason I'm here now arguing this.  Honestly, my Female Shepard can already have digital nookie with the best female LI in the game (IMO).  Opening up other LIs in ME3 doesn't affect me personally as I'll still go with Liara...who's already available.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

The ME universe does. LIs aren't a statistically accurate representation of the entire galaxy; if they were, they'd be mostly asari.

LIs don't have to be representative of the galaxy, they just have to be representative of the people Shep could be expected to plausibly come into contact with and develop relationships with. I don't think the whole "the Normandy is just a statistical anomaly" type of thing would be particularly strong storyelling. If every single person on the Normandy had red hair, I would start to wonder A) why they all have red hair, why Tali's rocking the transparent helmet all of a sudden.

Then you can go on wondering while the rest of us enjoy our increased opportunities.

[mauro2222]

bas_kon wrote...

I just want to have fun, and the same choices without having to mandatory play one sex or the other.

This, romances are for the fun of it.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

The ME universe does. LIs aren't a statistically accurate representation of the entire galaxy; if they were, they'd be mostly asari.

LIs don't have to be representative of the galaxy, they just have to be representative of the people Shep could be expected to plausibly come into contact with and develop relationships with. I don't think the whole "the Normandy is just a statistical anomaly" type of thing would be particularly strong storyelling. If every single person on the Normandy had red hair, I would start to wonder A) why they all have red hair, why Tali's rocking the transparent helmet all of a sudden.

Then you can go on wondering while the rest of us enjoy our increased opportunities.

Mass Effect 3: Gingers innnnn Spaaaaaceeee.

[slimgrin]

TeenZombie wrote...

Writers can address social issues AND give everyone who wants digital nooky their own way a choice.  

Well, if they could do it in a way that doesn't implement the magic Bi button I'd be all for it.

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Yeah, it's hard to model realistic human behavior with dialogue trees and a single like/dislike slider (go figure). Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to do that in a character-focused story.

It's okay to have this standard.  But don't try to apply it to one area (sexuality) and let the others get a free pass (like appearance or morality).

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
The Dragon Age franchise: lacking in bisexual love interests. You heard it here first, people.

Ah...okay...what does that have to do with my point about Alistair?

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Because that gets teh banhammer. Ask me how I know. I like this thread because critical discussion of what does and doesn't work in terms of writing doesn't get you b&.

That's a weak excuse.  I can't believe that criticizing weak writing in a heterosexual romance will get you banned but doing the same for a homosexual one won't.  I see people criticizing the writing all over the place.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Then it looks like we agree. Psychologically realistic relationships in Bioware games for everyone!

I don't agree...it was a counter-point.  I know they won't ever go for the level of realism you want.  That is why I think they should do away with the final limitation on romances (gender).   It's only fair.  You can't say forsaking realism is okay in situation X but not Y.  That's how the romances in these games work now and that's probably how they will always work.

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Okay, I've said this before (twice, I believe), and apparently you did not notice, so I will say it again: I am aware that there are s/s-only options in ME3. I have no problem with this; in fact, I see this as a positive thing. Ergo, I have no problem with s/s relationships. I also have a lesbian Femshep that romanced Liara.

I'll repeat myself too.

Yor are okay for them throwing realism out the window in situation X but not Y.  

There must be a reason for the double standard.  Why is it okay with X but not Y?  You playing an s/s romance doesn't change your line of reasoning.

Cthulhu42 wrote...

To be honest, I don't really care that much if they're all bi; it's just a minor thing. If Bioware made everyone open to both, I wouldn't really be upset over it. I just feel I should be allowed to have a preference without being accused of things which aren't even true. I only ask that you respect my right to an opinion, as I respect yours.

You have the right to your opinion, but I'm saying it's based on faulty logic.  I respect your right to an opinion, but I can't respect that specific opinion for that reason.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:42 .

[syllogi]

slimgrin wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Writers can address social issues AND give everyone who wants digital nooky their own way a choice.  

Well, if they could do it in a way that doesn't implement the magic Bi button I'd be all for it.

I keep hearing about this Magic Bi Button, but it was not available in my copy of DA2.  Was it console only?

Console players get the best stuff.  

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Yeah, it's hard to model realistic human behavior with dialogue trees and a single like/dislike slider (go figure). Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to do that in a character-focused story.

It's okay to have this standard.  But don't try to apply it to one area (sexuality) and let the others get a free pass (like appearance or morality).

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Because that gets teh banhammer. Ask me how I know. I like this thread because critical discussion of what does and doesn't work in terms of writing doesn't get you b&.

That's a weak excuse.  I can't believe that criticizing weak writing in a heterosexual romance will get you banned but doing the same for a homosexual one won't.  I see people criticizing the writing all over the place.

Once again, ask me how I know.

But yeah, for the record, I have in the past posted on threads other than this one (not with this account). There was, for instance, a very engaging discussion of whether Shep having relationships with subordinates was deeply problematic, and whether ME2 did enough to address this.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Then it looks like we agree. Psychologically realistic relationships in Bioware games for everyone!

I don't agree...it was a counter-point.  I know they won't ever go for the level of realism you want.  That is why I think they should do away with the final limitation on romances (gender).   It's only fair.  You can't say forsaking realism is okay in situation X but not Y.  That's how the romances in these games work now and that's probably how they will always work.

Sure, games can always take the Skyrim/Fable route. But if a game is marketed to me on its story, I would expect the events that happen in the story to make sense. (See also: various exhaustively discussed Shep-working-with-Cerberus-related plot holes.)

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:49 .