25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Yeah, the real-world present-day Butch/Femme thing is kind of beside the point to some extent. While I also kind of don't love the "hot girl on girl" approach, to be perfectly fair, no one is forced to make Shepard look like a princess. And the only options we've seen so far are Liara (who is an alien) and Kelly (who is bisexual) so we haven't seen a human lesbian in the game yet. Personally, I don't want the f/f or the m/m options to swing too far toward any stereotypes or counterstereotypes, I just want them to be interesting, engaging people, and oh yeah, they like same-sex partners.

[Aurellia]

Siansonea II wrote...

To be honest, T is a lot different than LGB, since it's an identity/self issue rather than a sexuality/partner issue. Naturally there is some overlap, but for the most part I don't think we would necessarily know if a person we're talking to in the game is transgendered or not. If the person transitioned long ago, especially if they were able to get treatment before the end of puberty, how would we know? Not really a relationship issue in any case. I personally decided that Pressly was transgendered in my games. I don't know why I picked Pressly, I essentially picked somebody at random. I don't think BioWare needs to underline transgender inclusion in Mass Effect though, because I imagine that from a social standpoint it would be a non-issue, and from a medical standpoint it would be all but invisible to Shepard.

The awesome chance for T inclusiveness would have been to allow Shepard to change gender at the beginning of ME2 due to the Lazarus project and then have the world react to this change and even love interests.  Maybe we can get something like that in a future game.

[TheMarshal]

Aurellia wrote...

I know I forgot some of them.

If you take the easy route and use the same dialog for SS and OS then sure it's not a big effort.  I want more.  I want the same sex romance to take on its own flavor and story arc.

With Jack I'd like to see a very different dynamic develop and even the sex scene play out differently.  With Ashley I'd like to have the reasons it took her so long to open up to her as another woman vs if Shepard had been a male.

I want writing that speaks to us as lesbians and gays and is meaningful.  If it was just the same dialog with a few tweaks then I can get that already with mods and while it is something it isn't as deeply satisfying as something written specifically for us.

Hence I want fewer deeper same sex relationships rather than recycled dialog.  Ok I'll take that for the remaining ones if pressed but then I'm just being greedy:innocent:

I can understand the desire to have the relationship play out differently depending on Shepard's sex.  Aside from Jack's, though, which of the romances do you feel would have needed to be written differently to include SS Shepards?

[Cartims]

Aurellia wrote...

Cartims wrote...

Now I've read everything...*bangs head on wall*, am I butch now?

OMG you have no idea how endlessly that question gets debated.   LOL.

The person who should answer that question is you:)

Well, it's not debated among my friends, we are not into labels, we just enjoy our indivulaity and don't fit into stero types, you should try it....i mean this in a nice wsy..:innocent:

[ArawnNox]

We're getting too deep into sexuality/society debates! *flails about*

Back on game discussion.

You know, I wouldn't mind a return of Kelly as a completed romance. Her "romance" in ME2 felt like it was just... sorta there, like they didn't have time to finish it. And MAN was she flirty with Shep.

"I feel like I could fall back and you'd catch me in your arms."
"I might do than just catch you."

In that JenHale sexy voice. Ooooooh!

[Maugrim]

ArawnNox wrote...

You know, I wouldn't mind a return of Kelly as a completed romance. Her "romance" in ME2 felt like it was just... sorta there, like they didn't have time to finish it. And MAN was she flirty with Shep.

"I feel like I could fall back and you'd catch me in your arms."
"I might do than just catch you."

In that JenHale sexy voice. Ooooooh!

I would love to have Kelly back.  I have at least one, maybe two Sheps who would just love to have a normal girl to come back home to.

[Siansonea]

Aurellia wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

To be honest, T is a lot different than LGB, since it's an identity/self issue rather than a sexuality/partner issue. Naturally there is some overlap, but for the most part I don't think we would necessarily know if a person we're talking to in the game is transgendered or not. If the person transitioned long ago, especially if they were able to get treatment before the end of puberty, how would we know? Not really a relationship issue in any case. I personally decided that Pressly was transgendered in my games. I don't know why I picked Pressly, I essentially picked somebody at random. I don't think BioWare needs to underline transgender inclusion in Mass Effect though, because I imagine that from a social standpoint it would be a non-issue, and from a medical standpoint it would be all but invisible to Shepard.

The awesome chance for T inclusiveness would have been to allow Shepard to change gender at the beginning of ME2 due to the Lazarus project and then have the world react to this change and even love interests.  Maybe we can get something like that in a future game.

I see where you're coming from, but the Lazarus Project wasn't something Shepard undertook, it was something that was undertaken by others on Shepard's behalf. And if Shepard was transgendered, I imagine it was all taken care of when s/he was a child/teen, so we are introduced to post-transition Shepard in ME1. That's how I see it anyway. I can't imagine anyone as self-possessed as Shepard would have discovered their transgender nature in their late 20s, or be afraid to address beforehand. Don't forget, this is the 2180s. Transgender in that time period should be equivalent to any other medical condition for the most part. You identify it, you address it. Making a big to-do about it almost seems odd to me. I would be thinking "Wow, people in the next century are STILL wierded out by this?" 

[Maugrim]

Nyoka wrote...

To me that's too much. Harem syndrome could get annoying if all of them are bisexual or shepsexual. If you had to make the LI list shorter, would you scratch out some of them? Would you make any of them strictly heterosexual or strictly gay?

This is not a sexuality issue it is a romanceable issue! Yes there is a difference.  The harem problem would still exist for certain Shepards it they were all straight or all gay.  The solution is not to limit romances but to write better and more extensive friendship paths.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 16 juin 2011 - 07:39 .

[Clonedzero]

these threads are always complete trainwrecks rofl

[AngelicMachinery]

Aurellia wrote...

Offtopic, but there is a vast amount of literature discussing Butch/Femme and other patterns in lesbian relationships.  A lot of it gets conflated with various feminist theories du jour.  What I was really trying to draw a contrast from was the hormonal male image of two hawt women licking each other to the fact that most lesbians I know tend to also reject other gender normative behavior for various reasons.

In some sense a buzz cut FemShep /Jack in a teeshirt pairing would be more in line what I see among my friends and at events like the ****** March.  Femmes seem to be less common in the activist lesbian community.

But then I'm a femme so who knows how many of us are really out there.  I just find myself in the minority most of the time:)

ObTopic:  For this reason I am thinking Jack could be a very interesting SS LI if it was handled properly.

Butch, femme… what have you have typically never matter much to me.  If I find the person interesting and attractive I go with it.  It has never come down to those two labels and I’m personally not sure where in the spectrum I would even fall.  Nor do I really care to know,  BUT,  I do find the idea that a certain F/F relationship is more real because it doesn’t fall into that particular stereotype to be horribly judgmental and more than a little bit silly.  We shouldn’t be devaluating certain people simply because they don’t seem to mesh with the preconceived notions of what is homosexual.

As for Jack,  it would be nice.  She’s a fantastic character ,BUT,  she also tells a female Shepard rather blatantly that she “isn’t into girls.”  Oddly enough,  she seems to be the only character that is specific about her orientation.  I’m willing to see that change,  but,  for that she is at the bottom of my list of potential F/F characters.  Which is too bad as she was my favorite character from the new squad.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 16 juin 2011 - 07:39 .

[jlb524]

Siansonea II wrote...
Personally, I don't want the f/f or the m/m options to swing too far toward any stereotypes or counterstereotypes, I just want them to be interesting, engaging people, and oh yeah, they like same-sex partners.

I agree...the character's sexuality should be a minor thing unless it is a big part of who they are, like with Isabela beinf a very sexual person in general (though, she's a rare creature as far as BW LIs go).

I hear some people argue that having all bisexuals makes for non-unique romance characters, but I think what decides 'uniqueness' should be the individual characters personality, beliefs, hopes/dreams, and not what gender PC they will sleep with.

BW has done a good job in past games of providing a unique set of characters that were never defined by their sexuality or stereotyped.

[Aurellia]

TheMarshal wrote...

I can understand the desire to have the relationship play out differently depending on Shepard's sex.  Aside from Jack's, though, which of the romances do you feel would have needed to be written differently to include SS Shepards?

If done right, I think there could be an interesting story about Ashley, faith and same sex.  If we assume her monotheistic believes are in fact Judeo-Christian, this could be a vector into understanding how views of faith and same sex has evolved.  Maybe Ashley was wishing to be more traditional and FemShepard has shaken her views a bit making her evolve her view.

I think for all the relationships some acknowledgement of the hopefully obsolete taboos around the relationship could make for some interesting dialog.

For example Miranda may be wishing to make a baby and having Daddy issues so have these things come up and we can learn whether lesbians in ME time frame can do ovum fusion pregnancies.  Her daddy issues may make her more easily intimate with a female but then maybe she may be missing some of that energy in her relationship.

The possibilities are endless and I'm sure there are better ones than these contrived examples.

I just want these stories to be meaningful and not just a removal of a gender flag.

[Siansonea]

@Clonedzero: Your observation does not add anything constructive to the conversation. If you have nothing worthwhile to add, please take your insults elsewhere.

[Aurellia]

Cartims wrote...

Well, it's not debated among my friends, we are not into labels, we just enjoy our indivulaity and don't fit into stero types, you should try it....i mean this in a nice wsy..:innocent:

Actually that's how I do it my life.  Just when I came out and encountered the broader lesbian community it was amazing how much this stuff mattered to various people.

[ArawnNox]

I never dug any of the LIs in 2. Mind you, I'm a guy who plays girls in games, but that's never stopped me from playing both sides of the fence (M/M romance with Zevran in DA:O). They just... Jacob was a creeper (and Hale's voice direction was so subtext laden that it put me off right away (I still suspect this was a result of miss-placed voice files)) and Thane.... a brooding assassin who's dying, astrainged from his son and had a dead wife AND refuses to take personal responsability for his actions... yeah, not into him AT ALL.

Garrus was the only one who made sense to me and I like how neither Shep or Garrus hinted at the chance of romance until Shep makes a pass at him. Unlike the others who alternativly throw themselves at Shep or Shep at them.

For the LI's who weren't available for Shep in the past, it might be a good idea to handle them like the Garrus romance: until Shep opens that door, neither party considers the chance.

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

@Clonedzero: Your observation does not add anything constructive to the conversation. If you have nothing worthwhile to add, please take your insults elsewhere.

well to be honest most of the posts in the last few pages havent added anything constructive either

i was fairly certain the concensus was that everyone was cool with s/s romances as long as they left established characters alone? when did that get railroaded?

[jlb524]

Nyoka wrote...

To me that's too much. Harem syndrome could get annoying if all of them are bisexual or shepsexual. If you had to make the LI list shorter, would you scratch out some of them? Would you make any of them strictly heterosexual or strictly gay?

I don't mind the 'Harem syndrome' as I ignore possible romances I don't pursue; in-universe, those characters just aren't interested in my Shepard (neither Thane, Garrus, or Jacob are interested in my FemShep at all, for example).

[TheMarshal]

Aurellia wrote...

If done right, I think there could be an interesting story about Ashley, faith and same sex.  If we assume her monotheistic believes are in fact Judeo-Christian, this could be a vector into understanding how views of faith and same sex has evolved.  Maybe Ashley was wishing to be more traditional and FemShepard has shaken her views a bit making her evolve her view.

I think for all the relationships some acknowledgement of the hopefully obsolete taboos around the relationship could make for some interesting dialog.

For example Miranda may be wishing to make a baby and having Daddy issues so have these things come up and we can learn whether lesbians in ME time frame can do ovum fusion pregnancies.  Her daddy issues may make her more easily intimate with a female but then maybe she may be missing some of that energy in her relationship.

The possibilities are endless and I'm sure there are better ones than these contrived examples.

I just want these stories to be meaningful and not just a removal of a gender flag.

Those are great examples, but gender doesn't play much of a role in the relationships as they are now, I think is my point.  Miranda never brings up the fact that she was trying to have a child to MShep.  I can't think of an equivalent counterpoint for Ashley, but I think you get what I mean.  Would you want to see gender acknowledgement in both s/s and o/s relationships, or did ME1/ME2 handle it about right for you?

[ArawnNox]

Aurellia wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

I can understand the desire to have the relationship play out differently depending on Shepard's sex.  Aside from Jack's, though, which of the romances do you feel would have needed to be written differently to include SS Shepards?

If done right, I think there could be an interesting story about Ashley, faith and same sex.  If we assume her monotheistic believes are in fact Judeo-Christian, this could be a vector into understanding how views of faith and same sex has evolved.  Maybe Ashley was wishing to be more traditional and FemShepard has shaken her views a bit making her evolve her view.

I think for all the relationships some acknowledgement of the hopefully obsolete taboos around the relationship could make for some interesting dialog.

For example Miranda may be wishing to make a baby and having Daddy issues so have these things come up and we can learn whether lesbians in ME time frame can do ovum fusion pregnancies.  Her daddy issues may make her more easily intimate with a female but then maybe she may be missing some of that energy in her relationship.

The possibilities are endless and I'm sure there are better ones than these contrived examples.

I just want these stories to be meaningful and not just a removal of a gender flag.

I'd rather not see this turn into another religion mud-slinging affair, so I'll just say this one bit and leave it at that.
Being of a particular faith does not mean you subscribe to a particular dogma.
Ash is faithful in God, we don't know what denomination of christianity/judeism/islam she is a part of. Or if it's even still an issue in the 22nd century Church.
It's a topic that doesn't need discussion as it's flame-bait territory.

[bleetman]

Clonedzero wrote...

i was fairly certain the concensus was that everyone was cool with s/s romances as long as they left established characters alone? when did that get railroaded?

Some time around the first page, I believe.

[Siansonea]

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@Clonedzero: Your observation does not add anything constructive to the conversation. If you have nothing worthwhile to add, please take your insults elsewhere.

well to be honest most of the posts in the last few pages havent added anything constructive either

i was fairly certain the concensus was that everyone was cool with s/s romances as long as they left established characters alone? when did that get railroaded?

I see we're continuing with the train metaphor. How about another one: Don't try to derail this thread into a discussion about what "everyone" wants. This thread is FOR everyone to discuss what each of them wants—which isn't ever going to be one single idea. So your assumption was not accurate.

[Siansonea]

bleetman wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i was fairly certain the concensus was that everyone was cool with s/s romances as long as they left established characters alone? when did that get railroaded?

Some time around the first page, I believe.

If anyone has concerns or suggestions about the scope of this thread, I would prefer to discuss that in PM, rather than in the thread. The purpose of this thread may evolve over time, but for now it is not the purpose of this thread to discuss the purpose of this thread. That is a PM subject.

[Aurellia]

Siansonea II wrote...

I see where you're coming from, but the Lazarus Project wasn't something Shepard undertook, it was something that was undertaken by others on Shepard's behalf. And if Shepard was transgendered, I imagine it was all taken care of when s/he was a child/teen, so we are introduced to post-transition Shepard in ME1. That's how I see it anyway. I can't imagine anyone as self-possessed as Shepard would have discovered their transgender nature in their late 20s, or be afraid to address beforehand. Don't forget, this is the 2180s. Transgender in that time period should be equivalent to any other medical condition for the most part. You identify it, you address it. Making a big to-do about it almost seems odd to me. I would be thinking "Wow, people in the next century are STILL wierded out by this?" 

As someone who is close to this issue myself.  While, I do agree that most gender dysphoria cases would likely get treated at an early age.  

Some people figure this stuff out early.  For various reasons gender dysphoria (transsexualism) may go undiagnosed for a period in life.  Some people just float very close to the center for a long time.  

In a future I would expect there to be more opportunities for gender fluidity.  Which leads me to this.  I'm sure you know but for the sake of others, not all transgender people are people with gender dysphoria or even gender identity disorder.  Some simply choose to live in the middle or otherwise wish to defy their normative gender role/presentation for whatever reasons.

Giving Shepard a choice to change genders would just make for an interesting vehicle to explore how that universe views gender variance.

[Erani]

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@Clonedzero: Your observation does not add anything constructive to the conversation. If you have nothing worthwhile to add, please take your insults elsewhere.

well to be honest most of the posts in the last few pages havent added anything constructive either

i was fairly certain the concensus was that everyone was cool with s/s romances as long as they left established characters alone? when did that get railroaded?

Well, I've always been for f/f Tali/Miranda and m/m Kaidan/Joker so that's at least one unit in favor of bi "established characters" right there. 'Tis what'd I call, concensus fail?