25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

Eustacia wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

I just want to see the exclusively gay character mention something about his sexuality and the struggles that come with it (if that pertains to the lore of ME as it says nothing of the future of gay marriage and such; at least that I know of) because it can add an emotional depth / connection with my lonely gay shep.

So nobody likes this idea? I thought it was a good RP tool...

I have no problem with the writers doing that if they want to, but it isn't something that I personally am asking for. I can't speak for anybody else though. Sorry, didn't mean for you to think we're ignoring you.

[Xilizhra]

Eustacia wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

I just want to see the exclusively gay character mention something about his sexuality and the struggles that come with it (if that pertains to the lore of ME as it says nothing of the future of gay marriage and such; at least that I know of) because it can add an emotional depth / connection with my lonely gay shep.

So nobody likes this idea? I thought it was a good RP tool...

I think it may work, yes.

[ElitePinecone]

Eustacia wrote...

I just want to see the exclusively gay character mention something about his sexuality and the struggles that come with it (if that pertains to the lore of ME as it says nothing of the future of gay marriage and such; at least that I know of) because it can add an emotional depth / connection with my lonely gay shep.

According to the leaked dialogue Shepard and Gay Character S can talk about it briefly, but it's not at all about 'struggles and hardship'. Character S asks about Shepard's relationship history and out of several responses ('I loved a woman and she died, I'm with someone, I'm with nobody because the mission is too important') there's "I'm waiting for the right man". 

I actually have a problem with dialogue that strays into "oh woe is me, I'm gay and lonely and struggled for 20 years", for a few reasons.

Firstly, by all accounts sexuality means literally nothing in the 22nd century. Every gay or lesbian character we've encountered in the books, games, and especially ME3, is treated absolutely no differently to any other character. Most of the time others don't even mention their sexuality, and if they do, it's casual acknowledgement rather than approval or disapproval. 

Simply put: it's not even an issue in the setting of the games. *Beyond* not even an issue - it's so inconsequential as to be completely insignificant.

So a conversation where Shepard could reveal their emotionally tortured past of 'dealing' with being gay, or hear about another character who had the same experience, seems very jarring. The Alliance has absolutely no restrictions on sexuality, and for Shepard to have 'struggled' with anything doesn't fit the universe.

Secondly, Bioware don't do social activism (despite the desperate cries of people who accuse them of too much ghey). Yes, many of their writers are socially liberal and include themes of feminism, empowerment, liberation and especially alternate sexualities in their games - but they're fundamentally still a company with executive oversight, and (as we've seen) still open to cutting content from above.

Commentary on 'the struggles of being same-sex attracted' might be topical or relevant to modern times, but it's also a powder keg they'd want to steer well away from. It's not Bioware's job as entertainers, and it'd be struck down from the executive level the moment someone proposed it. The last thing they'd want is a conservative blog screaming about how ME3 encourages gays to be normal. 

Reading the leaked script, the s/s romances in ME3 are presented as unremarkable. Shepard embarks on them exactly like every other heterosexual romance in previous games, and there's no overwrought dialogue from either party. Which is exactly as it should be in this setting. 

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
No, I think they should have exclusively straight, bisexual and exclusively gay LIs, because IRL people of each of those sexual orientations exist. 

Even when all other 'real life' criteria for romance is being ignored?

You don't see a problem with this? 

While it would be cool if Bioware rigged up a facial beauty detection engine, I think that such technology is currently out of their reach. So we will have to live with ugly Shep Casanovas/Casanovettes for the time being.

And for the record, I don't think that the hetero relationships in ME are very internally consistent or psychologically realistic at all. Particularly bad offenders are the Talimance and the whole Virmire Survivor business from ME2, but Jack gets an honorable mention for the whole "creepy 'nice guy' wet dream" aspect. I am happy to discuss my various gripes with those, and have done so in the past. But once again, that's not what this thread is about.

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

[Eustacia]

ElitePinecone wrote...

According to the leaked dialogue Shepard and Gay Character S can talk about it briefly, but it's not at all about 'struggles and hardship'. Character S asks about Shepard's relationship history and out of several responses ('I loved a woman and she died, I'm with someone, I'm with nobody because the mission is too important') there's "I'm waiting for the right man". 

I actually have a problem with dialogue that strays into "oh woe is me, I'm gay and lonely and struggled for 20 years", for a few reasons.

Firstly, by all accounts sexuality means literally nothing in the 22nd century. Every gay or lesbian character we've encountered in the books, games, and especially ME3, is treated absolutely no differently to any other character. Most of the time others don't even mention their sexuality, and if they do, it's casual acknowledgement rather than approval or disapproval. 

Simply put: it's not even an issue in the setting of the games. *Beyond* not even an issue - it's so inconsequential as to be completely insignificant.

So a conversation where Shepard could reveal their emotionally tortured past of 'dealing' with being gay, or hear about another character who had the same experience, seems very jarring. The Alliance has absolutely no restrictions on sexuality, and for Shepard to have 'struggled' with anything doesn't fit the universe.

Secondly, Bioware don't do social activism (despite the desperate cries of people who accuse them of too much ghey). Yes, many of their writers are socially liberal and include themes of feminism, empowerment, liberation and especially alternate sexualities in their games - but they're fundamentally still a company with executive oversight, and (as we've seen) still open to cutting content from above.

Commentary on 'the struggles of being same-sex attracted' might be topical or relevant to modern times, but it's also a powder keg they'd want to steer well away from. It's not Bioware's job as entertainers, and it'd be struck down from the executive level the moment someone proposed it. The last thing they'd want is a conservative blog screaming about how ME3 encourages gays to be normal. 

Reading the leaked script, the s/s romances in ME3 are presented as unremarkable. Shepard embarks on them exactly like every other heterosexual romance in previous games, and there's no overwrought dialogue from either party. Which is exactly as it should be in this setting. 

Whoa..that's a lot of text so I'm only goint to comment on a few parts. 

Have there been gay characters already? I haven't read any of the book so I don't know. But that doesn't mean that homosexuality is widely accepted. (Also I don't care if it's not about struggles, I just don't want them to gloss over their sexuality)

But more to the point speaking about sexuality does not = political activism. If that were true then anything in the game could be seen as such. The goverment, morals, etc. This is strictly an immersion tool, so it has nothing to do with BioWare being an activist (although by adding the content they already are).

@Abispa Oh, I didn't think I was being ignored  I just wanted to make sure people saw it. Thanks!
 

Modifié par Eustacia, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:42 .

[wolf99000]

I read on another forum that if you are not in a romance with them in me3 squadmates can hook up between each other and one option the guy has seems to say if vega is s/s he is only bi as he says he can hook up with ashley

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
*snip*

Er...okay.

Still not answering my question.

[slimgrin]

Eustacia wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

I just want to see the exclusively gay character mention something about his sexuality and the struggles that come with it (if that pertains to the lore of ME as it says nothing of the future of gay marriage and such; at least that I know of) because it can add an emotional depth / connection with my lonely gay shep.

So nobody likes this idea? I thought it was a good RP tool...

I like it. I love it. But it would limit player options, and we all know how that goes in a dating sim. Teh gays want their dating options more than anything. They want relationships with no strings attached. How inclusive.

Modifié par slimgrin, 27 novembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[ElitePinecone]

slimgrin wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

I just want to see the exclusively gay character mention something about his sexuality and the struggles that come with it (if that pertains to the lore of ME as it says nothing of the future of gay marriage and such; at least that I know of) because it can add an emotional depth / connection with my lonely gay shep.

So nobody likes this idea? I thought it was a good RP tool...

I like it. I love it. But it would limit player options, and we all know how that goes in a dating sim. Teh gays want their dating options more than anything.

Please stop posting in this thread until you can resist resorting to generalisations.

Being rude doesn't make your argument any stronger. 

I've already pointed out why 'tortured gay history' dosen't work in the Mass Effect universe - because there isn't any. 

@Eustacia: A gay character in the books was an ex-Alliance marine and head of security at a school for biotic children called Hendel Mitra. Other characters had no opinion about his sexuality, and it was never mentioned as a source of conflict or personal stress. Once it'd been established, it wasn't mentioned again. 

Which seems pretty accurate for the time, in my opinion. 

[slimgrin]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Please stop posting in this thread until you can resist resorting to generalisations.

Being rude doesn't make your argument any stronger. 

Then perhaps I'll start a thread critical of the topic..but then that will get locked down almost immediately. So the subject is effectively safe from criticism. Convenient.

Modifié par slimgrin, 27 novembre 2011 - 01:49 .

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

Then perhaps I'll start a thread critical of the topic..but then that will get locked down almost immediately. So the subject is effectively safe from criticism. Convenient.

Why don't you start your 'realism' thread?

Oh yeah, that's right...you only care about that in relation to preventing 'teh gayz' from getting equal options and will only post here.

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Then perhaps I'll start a thread critical of the topic..but then that will get locked down almost immediately. So the subject is effectively safe from criticism. Convenient.

Why don't you start your 'realism' thread?

Oh yeah, that's right...you only care about that in relation to preventing 'teh gayz' from getting equal options and will only post here.

It would never be allowed, whereas straight folks can be derided to no end in this thread, but like I care.

[wolf99000]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Then perhaps I'll start a thread critical of the topic..but then that will get locked down almost immediately. So the subject is effectively safe from criticism. Convenient.

Why don't you start your 'realism' thread?

Oh yeah, that's right...you only care about that in relation to preventing 'teh gayz' from getting equal options and will only post here.

It would never be allowed, whereas straight folks can be derided to no end in this thread, but like I care.

I dont think anyone is deriding straight people infact some of the best post in here in support of s/s have been from straight people I think its more the views of some on why there should be no s/s in the mass games and visa versa

Modifié par wolf99000, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:20 .

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...
It would never be allowed, whereas straight folks can be derided to no end in this thread, but like I care.

What?

The only folks that have been derided in this thread as a group are 'teh gays'.

[ElitePinecone]

Transparent motivations are transparent.

[Chun Hei]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Then perhaps I'll start a thread critical of the topic..but then that will get locked down almost immediately. So the subject is effectively safe from criticism. Convenient.

Why don't you start your 'realism' thread?

Oh yeah, that's right...you only care about that in relation to preventing 'teh gayz' from getting equal options and will only post here.

It would never be allowed, whereas straight folks can be derided to no end in this thread, but like I care.

I am straight. I find you "logic" with s/s romance as consistent as your argument that Jacob is a clone of Shaft. But I guess you can use that to defend yourself since it proves you can be "less than intelligent" on a variety of topics and not just s/s LIs.

[slimgrin]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Transparent motivations are transparent.

Go ahead. Say it.

I wonder if you all would be against my idea if Bioware actually made gay or straight characters only. What would be the complaint then?

Modifié par slimgrin, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

Go ahead. Say it.

I wonder if you all would be against my idea if Bioware actually made gay or straight characters only. What would be the complaint then?

Um, they do make straight only characters.  Very unrealistic romances with straight only characters.

[Abispa]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
No, I think they should have exclusively straight, bisexual and exclusively gay LIs, because IRL people of each of those sexual orientations exist. 

Even when all other 'real life' criteria for romance is being ignored?

You don't see a problem with this? 

While it would be cool if Bioware rigged up a facial beauty detection engine, I think that such technology is currently out of their reach. So we will have to live with ugly Shep Casanovas/Casanovettes for the time being.

And for the record, I don't think that the hetero relationships in ME are very internally consistent or psychologically realistic at all. Particularly bad offenders are the Talimance and the whole Virmire Survivor business from ME2, but Jack gets an honorable mention for the whole "creepy 'nice guy' wet dream" aspect. I am happy to discuss my various gripes with those, and have done so in the past. But once again, that's not what this thread is about.

And I think you also may be losing sight of what I'm arguing, here. I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

I have no problem with the concept you describe so long as gender isn't the ONLY limitation to choosing a LI. But just as technology limits the "beauty detection" of LIs, I think limitations force Bioware to strongly consider making "bi" the default setting for LIs. VA isn't cheap and writers do not work for free, and comparing the limited interaction with eight "straight" and two "bi" LIs in ME2 to the depth of four "bi" LIs in DA2 definitely favors the latter in terms of quality. Unless you enjoy having Garrus calibrating most of the time, or Miranda going from renegade to Shepard groupie over the course of one mission. And no, I'm not saying the DA2 method is perfect.

ME3 is going its own way. We shall see if it is better. I have no reason to think that it will be bad, and I may even prefer it.

And I am another "straight" person participating in this thread. Hell, I rarely ever play a s/s character. I have actually had arguments other s/s supporters about the implementation of s/s romances. We are not a monolinth. One thing we don't tolerate as a group, however, is hypocricy. God bless you if you love Tali, but don't come on this thread complaining how only a s/s relationship with her would ruin her integrity as a character. And don't whine about "realism" in establishing LI limitations if the only limitation you want is making sure "teh gayz" can't romance all the same gender LIs.

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Go ahead. Say it.

I wonder if you all would be against my idea if Bioware actually made gay or straight characters only. What would be the complaint then?

Um, they do make straight only characters.  Very unrealistic romances with straight only characters.

Given your history of posts, I'm sure you'll find something to whine about, slimgrin. Maybe Capt. Anderson can say, "The Priiizze" just once so you can argue that saying that line cancels out all other aspects of his character and makes him a Shaft clone because he's Black.

[flemm]

slimgrin wrote...

It would never be allowed, whereas straight folks can be derided to no end in this thread, but like I care.

Serious question... Are you secretly an activist trying to get people fired up about supporting s/s romance options? If so, you're doing a wonderful job. 

Personally, it's not really a topic I care much about. Until I read posts like yours, in any event, at which point it starts to seem really important.
So, anyway, keep up the good work

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[slimgrin]

Surprised everyone remembers the Shaft comment.

[slimgrin]

flemm wrote...


Serious question... Are you secretly an activist trying to get people fired up about supporting s/s romance options? If so, you're doing a wonderful job. 
 

So you've signed up for the bonus reach around. Congrats.

Modifié par slimgrin, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[flemm]

slimgrin wrote...

So you've signed up for the bonus reach around. Congrats.

I didn't know it was included, but it sounds like fun!

[ElitePinecone]

slimgrin wrote...

flemm wrote...


Serious question... Are you secretly an activist trying to get people fired up about supporting s/s romance options? If so, you're doing a wonderful job. 

 

So you've signed up for the bonus reach around. Congrats.

Since your only contribution to this thread seems to be snide insults and deliberate misrepresentation of people, it might be better if you stopped posting in it.

Clearly many people are never going to agree with you, or find your argument nonsensical. Clearly, you have your own opinions and aren't going to change them.

Fine. But don't keep derailing this thread. Any points you've made have been answered ten times over. If nobody is going to change their mind, this argument is pointless and shouldn't be continued.

Go and start a thread if you want, or join a group. But posting here encourages arguments and debates that will satisfy no one.

If it continues, there are other options.

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:36 .