25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

slimgrin wrote...

Surprised everyone remembers the Shaft comment.

It was so insanely... "not intelligent"... and revealed another aspect of your character as a person that, to me at least, wasn't a surprise at all. Rather than making you a champion of s/s critics, your various posts have pretty much made a great weight that drags your arguments down away from any chance of scaling the heights of clarity, consistency, or integrity.

[Olive Oomph]

slimgrin wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Then perhaps I'll start a thread critical of the topic..but then that will get locked down almost immediately. So the subject is effectively safe from criticism. Convenient.

Why don't you start your 'realism' thread?

Oh yeah, that's right...you only care about that in relation to preventing 'teh gayz' from getting equal options and will only post here.

It would never be allowed, whereas straight folks can be derided to no end in this thread, but like I care.

Will someone please have some compassion for the poor oppressed straight people!

Seriously though, this isn't literature. This is a game with a more or less great narrative, which can play out in different ways and not just one, where everything is set by the author. Social commentary isn't Bioware's buisness, entertainment is. You are looking for what you want in the wrong place.
You obviously have dfferent expectations towards the game than the developers, publishers and most of the fans - so why are you still here.
You can go read sitting on a park bench and complain, that the kids on the near-by playground are too loudly enjoying themselves, but everyone will tell you, if you want to read in peace, you should go to the library.

[slimgrin]

Olive Oomph wrote...

Seriously though, this isn't literature. This is a game with a more or less great narrative, which can play out in different ways and not just one, where everything is set by the author. Social commentary isn't Bioware's buisness, entertainment is. You are looking for what you want in the wrong place.
You obviously have dfferent expectations towards the game than the developers, publishers and most of the fans - so why are you still here.
You can go read sitting on a park bench and complain, that the kids on the near-by playground are too loudly enjoying themselves, but everyone will tell you, if you want to read in peace, you should go to the library.

As long as everyone thinks Bioware's writing is nothing more than pure entertainment, then I guess we all agree.

Modifié par slimgrin, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Abispa]

@ Olive Oomph -- I know I'm a bit of a hypocrite for saying this, but I think it's best to leave the "gentleman" alone. It's clear he loves the attention, and I apologize to ElitePinecone and the others for helping him develop carpal tunnel syndrome at our expense.

[Eustacia]

So...there is an exclusively homosexual character?

[syllogi]

Eustacia wrote...

So...there is an exclusively homosexual character?

Check out the Fight For the Love Spoiler Group for that kind of information.

[Sealy]

'Rants for years... reads, deletes. Don't need to rage' *Deep breath*

Um bioware, the more straight only options compared to s/s options are catering to homophobes like slimgrin, people who don't want the squad to be bi characters because it dilutes the awesomeness of the romance (aka: straightness)! People who actually think liking someone in the same gender of yourself makes you less awesome, whether it's even mentioned or not. People like that are actually getting what they want. Where as those of us who prefer s/s romances are left to be happy with our straight romances and sometimes a glitch/mod. And for the most part we simply accept this straight gamer world as the norm and... Bah. People like slimgrin should not be rewarded for being intolerant buttheads.

I really don't mind the straight romances I don't play enough bad ass females, this forces me too cause I want some Thane, so I'll play straight females without complaint. But, the wrong people are being rewarded for their actions, and the open minded, everyone is equal folk are working around the restrictions.

Bioware is leading the way in real, barrier breaking, sexuality has no boundries field, We are simply people, falling in and out of love. Don't give into the realism garbage, if they wanted realism thay would have started asking for it in ME1, what they want is to not have their fave character sullied by s/s feelings. Those people deserve to be upset.

'oh look... instead I posted a new rant* The deep breath didn't work.

[Eustacia]

TeenZombie wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

So...there is an exclusively homosexual character?

Check out the Fight For the Love Spoiler Group for that kind of information.

Thanks! 

[Abispa]

@ Fleshdress -- I understand your frustration, but we've been warned by Bioware NOT to refer to anyone as a "troll" or a "homophobe" even if we're convinced that they are. Apparently that is considered "trolling" as well by Bioware. Basically we're supposed to ignore them (where I sometimes fail spectacularly), and then report them to Bioware so their posts can be reviewed and they MIGHT be banned.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Abispa wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
...snip...
I think that Mass Effect should have gay, straight, and bisexual humans, because the real world has gay, straight, and bisexual humans.

I have no problem with the concept you describe so long as gender isn't the ONLY limitation to choosing a LI. But just as technology limits the "beauty detection" of LIs, I think limitations force Bioware to strongly consider making "bi" the default setting for LIs. VA isn't cheap and writers do not work for free, and comparing the limited interaction with eight "straight" and two "bi" LIs in ME2 to the depth of four "bi" LIs in DA2 definitely favors the latter in terms of quality. Unless you enjoy having Garrus calibrating most of the time, or Miranda going from renegade to Shepard groupie over the course of one mission. And no, I'm not saying the DA2 method is perfect.

I don't think either of those games has what I would consider a high-quality romantic subplot. ME2 definitely spread itself too thin, but DA2 shows us that using exclusively bisexual love interests to double the number of potential subplots per character isn't a panacea either. It comes off as the romance sublpot equivalent of recycling dungeon environments rather than any sort of genuine attempt to include sexual diversity in the game's cast. It's also somewhat annoying to me that Bioware gets a pass on sexual diversity, despite the fact that they seem to consistently avoid putting exclusively gay characters in their games.

Abispa wrote...

And I am another "straight" person participating in this thread. Hell, I rarely ever play a s/s character. I have actually had arguments other s/s supporters about the implementation of s/s romances. We are not a monolinth. One thing we don't tolerate as a group, however, is hypocricy. God bless you if you love Tali, but don't come on this thread complaining how only a s/s relationship with her would ruin her integrity as a character. And don't whine about "realism" in establishing LI limitations if the only limitation you want is making sure "teh gayz" can't romance all the same gender LIs.

Well, I think that it's more that any sort of sexual/romantic subplot with Shep that involves Tali constitutes a giant plot hole given the fact that she's massively allergic to A) Shep, Shep's bacteria. The characters' motivations don't really make sense in that subplot, and it feels like something they threw in because the fans wanted it vs. something they threw in because it makes sense in terms of the characters/story.

So, as you can see in the quote at the top, the only "limitations" I care about are the limits of plausibility and consistency. If Bio wants to say "gender is less of a barrier to romance in our future for xyz reasons" (see: Beta Colony in the Vorkosigan books) or "this species is bisexual by human standards" (which they did with the Asari) I'm totally cool with that. Unless they give us a good reason to expect the humans in their universe to behave differently than humans in the real world, however, it's not unreasonable to expect the humans in their universe to behave like the humans in the real world. This means including gay, straight, and bisexual humans in their story.

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I don't think either of those games has what I would consider a high-quality romantic subplot. ME2 definitely spread itself too thin, but DA2 shows us that using exclusively bisexual love interests to double the number of potential subplots per character isn't a panacea either. It comes off as the romance sublpot equivalent of recycling dungeon environments rather than any sort of genuine attempt to include sexual diversity in the game's cast. It's also somewhat annoying to me that Bioware gets a pass on sexual diversity, despite the fact that they seem to consistently avoid putting exclusively gay characters in their games.

This needs to be quoted more.  The "All Bi" solution seems less to me like Bioware being equal and more like an excuse to copy and paste their dialogue without doing the effort.  It's actually refreshing for Bioware to make an exclusively gay and lesbian LI for once because it shows they are willing to do the work.

[slimgrin]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I don't think either of those games has what I would consider a high-quality romantic subplot. ME2 definitely spread itself too thin, but DA2 shows us that using exclusively bisexual love interests to double the number of potential subplots per character isn't a panacea either. It comes off as the romance sublpot equivalent of recycling dungeon environments rather than any sort of genuine attempt to include sexual diversity in the game's cast. It's also somewhat annoying to me that Bioware gets a pass on sexual diversity, despite the fact that they seem to consistently avoid putting exclusively gay characters in their games.

This needs to be quoted more.  The "All Bi" solution seems less to me like Bioware being equal and more like an excuse to copy and paste their dialogue without doing the effort.  It's actually refreshing for Bioware to make an exclusively gay and lesbian LI for once because it shows they are willing to do the work.

Well, according some in this thread they have at least done that. We'll see how it goes.

[ElitePinecone]

^ I agree to a certain extent, but two things:

- Some see having more characters available as a good thing. If we have to choose between more player options and realism, I'd generally go with the former any time.

- Bioware's budget concerns trump practically anything else when it comes to game design and romances. For DAII, less zots available might've meant bisexual romances were the only way they could've been implemented. From their perspective, characters available for both genders frees up resources for other game content. They aren't trying for realism in romances, just making the most quality content with the least amount of money.

ME3 is different, clearly, and they have the resources to do more variety.

But "all Bi" isn't necessarily a bad thing - some people appreciate it, and sometimes, it's the only way to get romances in the game at all.

Bioware don't have infinite resources, particularly for DA2, and romance is a low priority when they want to focus on other parts of the game.

That said, I also appreciate that in ME3 they've tried to do things like exclusive gay and lesbian options.

[jeweledleah]

personally at this point i don't care if in future games they go with all bi solution. I prefer 2 straight, 2 bi, 2 gay, one per gender, personally, but all bi is fine too... provided its not copypasted and romance sublots have enough variation to them to feel unique and make you feel like you are playing a specific character rather then just genderless blank avatar.

as far as ME3 and previously established LI's? I'd rather they left them alone. because unless they create unique subplots for different genders that take into account prior possible interactions across different playthroughs (read don't just ignore that tehy seem to go for opposite gender originally but not same one), its going to be extremely jarring to me, obviously tacked on and just... about as bad as using the same exact cave over and over, just blocking off different passages even if they still show up on your map.

some people didn't care. I envy them their ability to just let it slide.

[Chun Hei]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

So, as you can see in the quote at the top, the only "limitations" I care about are the limits of plausibility and consistency. If Bio wants to say "gender is less of a barrier to romance in our future for xyz reasons" (see: Beta Colony in the Vorkosigan books) or "this species is bisexual by human standards" (which they did with the Asari) I'm totally cool with that. Unless they give us a good reason to expect the humans in their universe to behave differently than humans in the real world, however, it's not unreasonable to expect the humans in their universe to behave like the humans in the real world. This means including gay, straight, and bisexual humans in their story.

If the ME humans at large do not freak out about gay/bi Shepard or VS no explanation is necessary. The writers will have established that it must not be a big deal in the ME universe. There are dozens of reasons that a sane person can come up with to explain why 21st century "traditional values" may not be all the rage in the ME universe. They do not need to write some epic codex explaining it or have some VA waste five minutes justifying it. M/m LIs were just not an option presented in earlier games of the series just as multiplayer was not or the Garrus romance was not.

[Chun Hei]

jeweledleah wrote...

personally at this point i don't care if in future games they go with all bi solution. I prefer 2 straight, 2 bi, 2 gay, one per gender, personally, but all bi is fine too... provided its not copypasted and romance sublots have enough variation to them to feel unique and make you feel like you are playing a specific character rather then just genderless blank avatar.

as far as ME3 and previously established LI's? I'd rather they left them alone. because unless they create unique subplots for different genders that take into account prior possible interactions across different playthroughs (read don't just ignore that tehy seem to go for opposite gender originally but not same one), its going to be extremely jarring to me, obviously tacked on and just... about as bad as using the same exact cave over and over, just blocking off different passages even if they still show up on your map.

some people didn't care. I envy them their ability to just let it slide.

1) I have no problem with that.

2) Male Shepard never saw Kaidan stumbling over himself around female Shepard. Those are forever going to be two different games. And Bioware has said that the player must initiate the romances this time so the female Shepard is not going to notice any difference with Kaidan either. If Kaidan turns into Isabela in ME3 then I will be upset. And I will be upset if the romance is badly written as a whole.

[ElitePinecone]

^ That's another thing, Chun Hei...

If players never initiate a romance with a character (or attempt to), is that character bisexual? How does Shepard know?

I mean, within the universe you'd have no idea unless they told you or you approached them.

For people to freak out about 'bisexual' characters, they'd have to either be hit on by them (which won't happen in ME3), flirt with them (which they won't do, presumably) or else meta-game the whole thing, which seems entirely pointless. Get angry over a potential character path that Shepard couldn't possibly experience in the game unless they wanted it seems a bit unreasonable.

And if people really do freak out about the potential quantum-possibilities ('in this universe Character X could be with Shepard') it seems... pretty odd.

[jeweledleah]

ElitePinecone wrote...

^ That's another thing, Chun Hei...

If players never initiate a romance with a character (or attempt to), is that character bisexual? How does Shepard know?

I mean, within the universe you'd have no idea unless they told you or you approached them.

For people to freak out about 'bisexual' characters, they'd have to either be hit on by them (which won't happen in ME3), flirt with them (which they won't do, presumably) or else meta-game the whole thing, which seems entirely pointless. Get angry over a potential character path that Shepard couldn't possibly experience in the game unless they wanted it seems a bit unreasonable.

And if people really do freak out about the potential quantum-possibilities ('in this universe Character X could be with Shepard') it seems... pretty odd.

its the how.  I've been trying to explain it over and over and over, but it seems I'm in a minority of people who actualy has a problem with it.  just becasue your Shepard is not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  its like a child who covers their eyes and thinks they made it dark for everyone - it just doesn't work that way, not to me. I play multiple Shepards.  i WILL see it in game.  andf me the player knowing that something was one way in one playthrough and completely ignored in another is just.. jarring.  just like hearing Garrus say "just like old times" in a playtrhoguh where he wasn't even recruited was jarring.

to me - yes its worth it to spend a few minutes to explain why something didn't happen before if it preserves character consistency across the playthroughs, instead of destroying it even further.

and why does it bother you all exactly? you'd still get what you what, except that way we both get what we want?

[jlb524]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

This needs to be quoted more.  The "All Bi" solution seems less to me like Bioware being equal and more like an excuse to copy and paste their dialogue without doing the effort.  It's actually refreshing for Bioware to make an exclusively gay and lesbian LI for once because it shows they are willing to do the work.

Why assume they 'copy/paste' and not simply develop the two romance plots simulaneously?

That's like saying they copy/paste the Tali romance for both Paragon and Renegade Shepard.  Do they do that?

ElitePinecone wrote...
- Some see having more characters available as a good thing. If we have to choose between more player options and realism, I'd generally go with the former any time.

Considering gender/sexuality issues are not touched upon in these romance, why limit choice based on gender?  It's a superficial thing.

Like I said, if they want to delve into issues with homosexuality in the ME universe with an LI, then they'd have to make that LI s/s only, of course.  Otherwise, there's no point to do it in a narrative such as this.

As others have repeated, this isn't a book or a movie.  You are in control of what story you experience.

Modifié par jlb524, 27 novembre 2011 - 11:30 .

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

This needs to be quoted more.  The "All Bi" solution seems less to me like Bioware being equal and more like an excuse to copy and paste their dialogue without doing the effort.  It's actually refreshing for Bioware to make an exclusively gay and lesbian LI for once because it shows they are willing to do the work.

Why assume they 'copy/paste' and not simply develop the two romance plots simulaneously?

That's like saying they copy/paste the Tali romance for both Paragon and Renegade Shepard.  Do they do that?

Liara romance is almost completely identical in maleshep vs femshep playthrough.
every friendship/rivalry romance differences are minor - there are barely any differences between s/s vs o/s romances in DA2.

it doesn't matter which wording you use to describe their current solution - it FEELS like copy paste, because they use the same dialogue.

though I do believe paragon/renegade romances actualy have substantial dialogue differences.

[Xilizhra]

Liara romance is almost completely identical in maleshep vs femshep playthrough.

Asari don't really care about that sort of thing.

every friendship/rivalry romance differences are minor - there are barely any differences between s/s vs o/s romances in DA2.

Elves seem to have a racial trend towards bisexuality, and Anders and Isabela have their own reasons for not caring as opposed to relating with both sexes differently.

[ElitePinecone]

"to me - yes its worth it to spend a few minutes to explain why something didn't happen before if it preserves character consistency across the playthroughs, instead of destroying it even further."

I didn't realise that's what you were proposing.

Of course, I agree with this - and it's in the game, kinda, by the looks of it.

But even if it weren't, it's not a signal to instantly assume the romance is coming out of the blue.

An absence of a spoken explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. Leaving it unsaid is just as likely to mean "I've always felt something for you" as "For some reason now I'm attracted to you because Bioware said so."

[Chun Hei]

My female Hawke and male Hawke have both romanced Anders and they both have a different feel to them. Fenris less so but that was due to the character's personality not some writer having to worry about how "gay" or "straight" a relationship seemed. I understand that Merrill's relationship also had a different feel depending on gender. With the friendship/rivalry system that means the four LIs gave the game 16 romances a player could choose from (or just 12 if you want to argue that Isabela and Fenris' "bi" romances were not different enough to count).

But again ME3 is promised to be different. I will wait to see before I say it is better or worse than DA2.

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...
Liara romance is almost completely identical in maleshep vs femshep playthrough.
every friendship/rivalry romance differences are minor - there are barely any differences between s/s vs o/s romances in DA2.

it doesn't matter which wording you use to describe their current solution - it FEELS like copy paste, because they use the same dialogue.

They are similar but why is that an issue when these romances don't focus on gender anyway? 

Using the same dialog doesn't entail a copy paste.  

jeweledleah wrote...
though I do believe paragon/renegade romances actualy have substantial dialogue differences.

The romances still go the same route regardless of Paragon/Renegade status.  I'd imagine Liara would approach a Renegade Shepard differently from a Paragon, but she doesn't.  

[jeweledleah]

Isabela specifically shows with her ambient dialogue, that she does in fact see women and men differently, on all levels. Anders for all his "everyone was kissing everyone" comments - originally wanted to settle down with a girl. Fenris had a male slaveholder who was hinted at using Fenris in... variety of ways, so that could have been explored. the only one of DA2 crew that I could buy was Merril.

as for Liara... asari might not care about their partner's gender, but they have thousands of years to get used to dual gendered species and other then possibly Turians, all of those species have gender role differences.

@ Elitepinecone - so basicaly we have to keep headcanoning even more stuff?  it really gets tiresome, having to resort to fanfiction and headcanon to keep filling the holes bioware leaves all over the place.

@ Jib - its the same dialogue.  that feeling of dejavu is.. unpleasant to me.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 27 novembre 2011 - 11:39 .