25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Eh. The manifesto is supposed to be poorly written. Part of the point of Anders' arc in DA2 is that he sucks at expressing himself or his values. It's why he wants Hawke to lead the revolution for him. A poorly-written manifesto wouldn't be fun to read, and it's not likely to be all that fun to write either.

The thing about multiple playthroughs is, I can romance Garrus exactly the same way in six different playthroughs with six different Shepards. I can't romance him any differently no matter how hard I try. It's always, always, always "suave Shep is amused by flaily Garrus." If I start up a new Shep and make her as shy and curt as humanly possible, she's still going to magically be slick and badass as soon as he brings up reach and flexibility. That knowledge means I'm only ever going to romance him with one Shepard: the one I specifically design for him, who will, of necessity, be suave.

Right now, she will also, of necessity, be female. That's not good game design. Making him react differently to a male still wouldn't be good game design. Because half of male Sheps (the suave ones) are also now romancing him in a way that makes no sense, and shy femSheps are still romancing him in a way that makes no sense. And me sitting there as a suave femShep player, I'm still knowing in my mind, "this would play out exactly the same if my Shep were completely different," and I mean actually different, not just the cosmetic difference of having a different body mesh and voice set.

Modifié par Quething, 28 novembre 2011 - 09:46 .

[silentassassin264]

What you said is true but it is the result of having one flirt button. Dragon Age 2 for example had your dominate personality adjust what you said with that one flirt button but the only thing Mass Effect could do with that is have Renegade and Paragon romances...with no middle ground which would annoy the hell out of me when my badass war hero Paragade starts doing some completely out of character emotional drivel. The only other way to deal with it is to add a whole bunch of flirt options on the wheel which cause a whole bunch of "This isn't suppose to be a dating sim! FANRAGE!" comments.

[Quething]

Nah. I can see two ways to do it, offhand. One, instead of having flirt dialog be one line with an icon or a really ridiculous paraphrase, have it be just a left-side wheel option that says "flirt," and just like "investigate," it opens up a subset of two to four different responses. People not interested in flirting never have to see those options, and they still aren't all that numerous, so it's fairly unobtrusive while still allowing flexibility.

Two, do it more ME1 style but with less ninjamancing: that is to say, friendship and romance should be basically the same. They'd be about 80% identical conversations, and each of those conversations can resolve a dozen different ways for every Shep. So whether you're paragon or renegade, sincere or dogmatic, impacts every discussion anyway. The romance flag, you'd have one or two opportunities to trip throughout the game, and it would result in a few different single lines or scenes where appropriate, which isn't all that often, because this is an action game, after all. Romance would become just another minor variable in "is this line available" and "how does this character respond," just like morality and loyalty and other such flags are now, making all parts of Shep's personality equally important in shaping your interactions with NPCs. This would actually be my preferred method, because I hate ME2/DA2's incredibly limited and linear conversations and want them gone in favor of old-school KotOR-style trees that never play out the same way twice. But it's also far more resource-intensive, so I'm pretty sure ME1 was the last we'll see of it.

Modifié par Quething, 28 novembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[Chun Hei]

Maybe there should be a good flirt (I love you and want to commit to a long term relationship), a playful flirt (have some fun and see what happens) and a blunt flirt (you are another notch in my belt baby). I would like the LI to be happy or offended based on his/her personality. Just have them show up on the left side of the wheel.

EDIT: I would love to see the party respond if you flirt with someone in their presense. I could see Isabela get angry if you do the blunt flirt on Merrill or Aveline sigh with disapproval if you blunt flirt with Isabela.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 28 novembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Chun Hei wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

So, as you can see in the quote at the top, the only "limitations" I care about are the limits of plausibility and consistency. If Bio wants to say "gender is less of a barrier to romance in our future for xyz reasons" (see: Beta Colony in the Vorkosigan books) or "this species is bisexual by human standards" (which they did with the Asari) I'm totally cool with that. Unless they give us a good reason to expect the humans in their universe to behave differently than humans in the real world, however, it's not unreasonable to expect the humans in their universe to behave like the humans in the real world. This means including gay, straight, and bisexual humans in their story.

If the ME humans at large do not freak out about gay/bi Shepard or VS no explanation is necessary. The writers will have established that it must not be a big deal in the ME universe. There are dozens of reasons that a sane person can come up with to explain why 21st century "traditional values" may not be all the rage in the ME universe. They do not need to write some epic codex explaining it or have some VA waste five minutes justifying it. M/m LIs were just not an option presented in earlier games of the series just as multiplayer was not or the Garrus romance was not.

Oh, I wasn't referencing societal response to sexuality. I was talking about expression of sexuality - i.e., are there gay, straight, and bisexual people at all in this fictional world? Are these people love interests, comrades in arms, background characters, or some combination of the above?

[Abispa]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Oh, I wasn't referencing societal response to sexuality. I was talking about expression of sexuality - i.e., are there gay, straight, and bisexual people at all in this fictional world? Are these people love interests, comrades in arms, background characters, or some combination of the above?

While I don't mind the NPCs having a personal life outside of Shepard, for the sake of the game, whether or not they are straight, bi, or gay only matters if Shepard can romance them. However, if Zaeed is in the game and talks about having a "true love" somewhere, whatever gender or species, I have no problem with that. As for whether or not they are LI, comrades, background characters, or combination, I'm pretty much that will be determined fairly easily by players of the game.

Shepard was advertised as a character that WE help create, and choosing a LI, whatever the gender or species, is another means the player has to accessorize and customize their Shepard. This game is primarily about blowing up bad guys; it's not meant to be a dating sim.

If the leaked script is accurate, there will be some backstory for each of the LIs to flesh them out, but if a disproportionate amount of resources are devoted to enhancing the backstory (like those INSANELY LONG chats by the fire in DA:O), critics may have a legitimate gripe, especially if the game fails to deliver on the action/adventure aspects like many believe DA2 did.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Abispa wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Oh, I wasn't referencing societal response to sexuality. I was talking about expression of sexuality - i.e., are there gay, straight, and bisexual people at all in this fictional world? Are these people love interests, comrades in arms, background characters, or some combination of the above?

While I don't mind the NPCs having a personal life outside of Shepard, for the sake of the game, whether or not they are straight, bi, or gay only matters if Shepard can romance them. However, if Zaeed is in the game and talks about having a "true love" somewhere, whatever gender or species, I have no problem with that. As for whether or not they are LI, comrades, background characters, or combination, I'm pretty much that will be determined fairly easily by players of the game.

Shepard was advertised as a character that WE help create, and choosing a LI, whatever the gender or species, is another means the player has to accessorize and customize their Shepard. This game is primarily about blowing up bad guys; it's not meant to be a dating sim.

If the leaked script is accurate, there will be some backstory for each of the LIs to flesh them out, but if a disproportionate amount of resources are devoted to enhancing the backstory (like those INSANELY LONG chats by the fire in DA:O), critics may have a legitimate gripe, especially if the game fails to deliver on the action/adventure aspects like many believe DA2 did.

Too be honest, I liked the Zaeed/Kasumi between-mission dialogue a lot more than I did the dialogue trees - it just felt more natural for some reason.

My issue is not "more dialogue trees plz" - it's "more inclusion plz." The inclusion problem actually goes beyond sexuality - for instance, compare the porportion of people of Asian (including Indian) descent in ME2 with the porportion of Asian people IRL. Or do the same for Latinos, or people of African descent. Sexuality is just particular relevant to this thread because A) it's what the thread is about, and Bioware has a reputation for inclusion in its romantic subplots.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 29 novembre 2011 - 01:56 .

[Abispa]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

My issue is not "more dialogue trees plz" - it's "more inclusion plz." The inclusion problem actually goes beyond sexuality - for instance, compare the porportion of people of Asian (including Indian) descent in ME2 with the porportion of Asian people IRL. Or do the same for Latinos, or people of African descent. Sexuality is just particular relevant to this thread because A) it's what the thread is about, and Bioware has a reputation for inclusion in its romantic subplots.

The ME writers have already said that White people, particularly blondes and gingers, are an endangered segment of human since there is so much ethnic interbreeding between humans. Not the scientifically correct way to explain what will happen to humanity as we continue to intermarry, but since Time magazine (I believe) ran a story about the vanishing blondes I suppose I can't blame them.

I think it is no accident that Sheploo looks like he could have a "mixed" (I hate that term, but I'll use it for now) background. Ashley is supposedly a quarter Hispanic, Kaidan is a Middle Eastern name, and the names of many of the NPCs indicate that the background humans aren't all traditional western European descent.

Personally, I think Bioware is saying just about every human is "mixed" so they can pretty much design them to look any way they want and not have to worry about explaining their ethnicity in any great detail. Kasumi appears to be Japanese, but I wouldn't be surprised if her backstory had some Korean, Chinese or even, I don't know, an Irish grandmother.

Modifié par Abispa, 29 novembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[ElitePinecone]

The ethnic composition of humanity in 2185 isn't *quite* relevant to this thread, but like Absipa said, the writers have tried to explain what their vision for it was for the games.

(It's worth noting that two of the writers who created this 'vision' have since moved on to other projects, but Drew Karpyshyn and Chris L'Etoile have both written a lot on the background to the games.)

Basically, the books explain that rapid globalisation in Earth's 21st and 22nd centuries meant racial barriers were essentially non-existent by the time of Mass Effect, and people were liable to have all sorts of interesting ethnic combinations (David Anderson was meant to be British/Caribbean/African and possibly Slavic, if I'm remembering correctly). Hendel Mitra had Swedish and Indian parents.

Whether that was followed through well in the games is questionable. It's probably easier for the writers and artists to use stimulus they're familiar with, which is possibly why there doesn't seem to be a lot of ethnic intermingling in the games (let alone people of majority East or South Asian descent).

Dave! Yognaut, you're probably right that ME2 (in particular) wasn't quite as representative of the vision established in ME of human society as it could've been. If I have one criticism of the writing direction of the series, it's that all the fascinating sci-fi futurism stuff established in the books and first game haven't really been explored.

L'Etoile had an amazing series of essays on what he saw as the future for human nations and politics once globalisation got going (something he disagreed with Karpyshyn on), but so far it's hardly been referenced at all in the games.

I wouldn't necessarily say that not including non-heterosexuality is linked to the game being fairly white - there are probably different factors and reasons involved in both. Part of it might just be subconscious (an artist designing a character for a sidequest creates from what they're familiar with), part of it by necessity (matching voice actors with character appearances, say) and yes, possibly because having the 'muscly Afro-American soldier, white supersoldier sex goddess and grizzled vaguely-Arabian/British mercenary' might've been good for marketing.

I wouldn't accuse the developers of some deliberate plot to exclude non-white and non-heterosexual characters from their games because marketing told them to or because it sells well. Admittedly the explanation for the lack of s/s in ME2 was... dubious... *at best*, but no-one can accuse Bioware of timidity when they included them in ME3 (and to a large extent).

[Quething]

Abispa wrote...

The ME writers have already said that White people, particularly blondes and gingers, are an endangered segment of human since there is so much ethnic interbreeding between humans.

As Pinecone and Dave point out, the game canon does not agree with you. Or them, I guess, to be more accurate.

(Just another reason to want Kasumi for bi LI. Double diversity points! I have no ulterior motive in this at all! )

Modifié par Quething, 29 novembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...

Abispa wrote...

The ME writers have already said that White people, particularly blondes and gingers, are an endangered segment of human since there is so much ethnic interbreeding between humans.

As Pinecone and Dave point out, the game canon does not agree with you. Or them, I guess, to be more accurate.

(Just another reason to want Kasumi for bi LI. Double diversity points! I have no ulterior motive in this at all! )

That's a really, really interesting post, thanks for linking. 

For reference, the writers' 'vision' I was referring to is here: 

The Future Ain't What It Used To Be 

and its second part, 
Mere Anarchy Loosed Upon The Stars 

They're well worth a read, even unrelated to the discussion going on at the moment. 

L'Etoile covered a lot of the hard science in the series (or, at least, the more realistic parts of it) and wrote what I thought was one of the best parts of Mass Effect, Noveria. 

I was slightly surprised (and a little disappointed) that all the themes present in Mass Effect's complex main quests - unrestrained corporations, dubious human politics, the machinations of the Council - weren't really present in ME2, or played a subservient role to more tradtitional dramatic themes (betrayal, redemption, 'Cerberus is morally dubious', etc). ME had a really interesting subverted retro sci-fi thing going, and I don't think we're likely to see it again in the series, particularly as the quotient of alien conflicts and heroism (rather than human politics) seems to be ramped up for ME3. 

Back to s/s romances: it's a hard topic in sci-fi to address without also mentioning contemporary (or future) social norms; I don't blame the writers for wanting to skirt the issue. 

That said, in ME3 some things are made clear, and while I don't think it should be a platform for activism it's interesting to see some of the choices made that fit into what we know of humanity in 2185. 

[Abispa]

I have a qualm with everyone LOOKING "white" in the game, but I have always taken Bioware at their word that there is so much "intermarrying" among humans that it would be a bit laborious to have everyone give their background.

As for the characters looking white, I think the game designers, like television directors and comic book artists, assume that their predominantly white audience will more easily notice things like hair color and skin color to tell the difference between characters, and not more subtle (and meaningful) differences like skull shape.

Thus a television show, movie, game, or comic featuring a group will have a Black, an Asian, a blonde, a redhead, a brunette, a Latino, or a handicapped man/woman, but they'll RARELY have two of each UNLESS great care is taken to adjust the hair or "iconic" clothing to differentiate them if they're in the same scene. Now the predominately white audience can go, "Oh, I like that black guy on CSI!" or "That blonde chic on Battlestar Gallactica is HOT!"

I remember reading that the actresses who played Caprica and Starbuck on Battlestar had to make sure their blonde hair was a different as possible so as not to confuse viewers(?).

This simplistic way of defining the look of a cast favors Whites since they can be "different" based on their more noticeable range of hair color. As graphics become more sophisticated and close ups becoming standard in all conversation scenes, I hope we're seeing the final days of this practice.

As a Hispanic myself, I hope that as gays, bis, and ethic minorities are better represented in future Bioware games that the designers just put them in and NOT make a huge fuss over doing so. Just have more minority characters, but don't put a caption on the box saying, "Now with 25% MORE brown people!"

Modifié par Abispa, 29 novembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

Abispa wrote...

The ME writers have already said that White people, particularly blondes and gingers, are an endangered segment of human since there is so much ethnic interbreeding between humans.

As Pinecone and Dave point out, the game canon does not agree with you. Or them, I guess, to be more accurate.

(Just another reason to want Kasumi for bi LI. Double diversity points! I have no ulterior motive in this at all! )

Don't ruin my fragile immersion, darn you!

[Eustacia]

Quething wrote...

Abispa wrote...

The ME writers have already said that White people, particularly blondes and gingers, are an endangered segment of human since there is so much ethnic interbreeding between humans.

As Pinecone and Dave point out, the game canon does not agree with you. Or them, I guess, to be more accurate.

(Just another reason to want Kasumi for bi LI. Double diversity points! I have no ulterior motive in this at all! )

Which is really interesting considering most of the people still look white....

I can't believe this thread went an entire day without a post.

Modifié par Eustacia, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[ElitePinecone]

Eustacia wrote...

Quething wrote...

Abispa wrote...

The ME writers have already said that White people, particularly blondes and gingers, are an endangered segment of human since there is so much ethnic interbreeding between humans.

As Pinecone and Dave point out, the game canon does not agree with you. Or them, I guess, to be more accurate.

(Just another reason to want Kasumi for bi LI. Double diversity points! I have no ulterior motive in this at all! )

Which is really interesting considering most of the people still look white....

I can't believe this thread went an entire day without a post.

I think it's a good thing (and don't forget the spoiler group is quite active), if it's a sign that everything that could possibly be said about this topic has been said. Not just once, but probably 20 or 50 times. 

There hasn't been an "OMG gays in ME3!" thread for weeks now, and that's something. 

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Eustacia wrote...

Which is really interesting considering most of the people still look white....

That's really the laziness and/or limitations of the programming, not a conscious decision.  Like how there's only 1 body model for males and females, and no children (until now).

[Burneye Is God]

all for same sex gives people more choice and freedom also some people would obviosuly prefer that as it's there oritation!

[Quething]

Abispa wrote...
Just have more minority characters, but don't put a caption on the box saying, "Now with 25% MORE brown people!"

I think the trend the linked post points out is that ME2 was "now with 25% fewer brown people," which was the point (or 50% less, depending on how you measure it).

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Eustacia wrote...

Which is really interesting considering most of the people still look white....

That's really the laziness and/or limitations of the programming, not a conscious decision. Like how there's only 1 body model for males and females, and no children (until now).

And... that makes it better? 

(It really is depressing the first time you try to make an Asian Shep - any Asian Shep, and it's a damn big continent - and end up fighting the CC for six hours and still not being satisfied. Same kind of oversight as spending all game trying to make a gay Shep and never getting the chance to flirt with anyone your character would actually be interested in. Something worth seven or eight threads of 500+ pages about, y'know?)

Actually on that note, I think the thread is quiet more because of Leakgate. Most of the discussion we'd be having would involve spoilers that only half of us have any desire to know about. Makes things hard to talk about. Even once the actual game comes out, I still think there will be a use for this thread, because there will still be room to talk about how well the romances were implemented, and what that means or should mean for future ME content (since we know they're not done with the setting even once they're done with Shep).

Modifié par Quething, 02 décembre 2011 - 01:36 .

[Ryzaki]

These forums are gonna get ugly once ME3 comes out if even half of the leaked stuff stays in.

I have popcorn ready.

[ElitePinecone]

Ryzaki wrote...

These forums are gonna get ugly once ME3 comes out if even half of the leaked stuff stays in.

I have popcorn ready.

It could be worse - from the looks of it ninjamancing is very difficult. 

Though if people do flip out because of choices in games that they don't have to take, I'll be the first person diving in to defend their inclusion. 

(And hey, just quietly I'd love to see a Weekes rhetorical shellacking, if it ever came to it) 

[Mark of the Dragon]

Im happy to finally see s/s romances added to Mass Effect. Honestly im surprised it took this long. Eitherway I am a straight male and thats how I play my game. However it is that choice that makes the game feel so much better a more personal to each player. If people want  s/s relationship then its there choice and they should be allowed to choice it. Every person is unique and no game should be limited because others have a problem with how some people live there lives or just choose to play a game.

Kudos Bioware! The way you continue to support such issues is one of the many reasons you are my favorite game developers!!!:innocent:

[sriv99]

i don't think inclusion of same sex romance is the best idea by Bioware. Because the first two instalments didnot have them. And it wouldn't make much sense to romance a character that is present in M.E1&2 where u can't romance them. Like Garrus for male and Tali for fem shepards. It would have been acceptable if they had bought that option in MASS EFFECT 2.
So bringing the same sex romance in MASS EFFECT 3 is a pretty stupid move on part of BIOWARE.
Maybe they could bring that option in the next MASS EFFECT game after the TRIOLOGY.

[sriv99]

i only hope BIOWARE get some sense and remove that option of same sex romance........ its gonna really suck and screw up things......

[bleetman]

sriv99 wrote...

i don't think inclusion of same sex romance is the best idea by Bioware. Because the first two instalments didnot have them. And it wouldn't make much sense to romance a character that is present in M.E1&2 where u can't romance them. Like Garrus for male and Tali for fem shepards.

Irony.

So much irony.