25715 réponses à ce sujet

[who would know]

@CastonFolarus: Thing is, you've had choices, whereas before ME3, we've had none. Straight romances have been available, and they will be available. That won't change.

So if the new romances appeal to you, then try them. What's stopping you? I trudged my way through straight romances because they were all that was available, so you might be able to put aside your differences and enjoy a gay romance, too. Not everything can be designed for everybody, you know?

I was pretty shocked to learn that gay romance was absent from ME2, myself. Looked it up on GameFaqs just out of a need to plan ahead. Sure, I was disappointed, but I moved on to what was available, 'cause damned if I wasn't gonna round out my story with one of these romances...

I think the only thing I was dead set on was not romancing Tali, because she seemed like nerd bait, wish fulfillment, etc. What Liara was in ME1. Also, she has no face. Consequently, I was needlessly rude to her at every turn.

Modifié par who would know, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:43 .

[Gespenst]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I knew people would feel entitled to have everyone available for o/s romances and act like they were "cheated" if they did not get all romances o/s.  Then we get slimgrin (whatever his/her name is) complaining if you make some new people bi because "OMG bisexuals are so unrealistic!  My immersion!"  No matter what you do BSN disapproves.

Bisexuals are somewhat more plausible than faster-than-light travel, biotics and asari...

[HK-90210]

who would know wrote...

@CastonFolarus: Thing is, you've had choices, whereas before ME3, we've had none. Straight romances have been available, and they will be available. That won't change.

So if the new romances appeal to you, then try them. What's stopping you? I trudged my way through straight romances because they were all that was available, so you might be able to put aside your differences and enjoy a gay romance, too. Not everything can be designed for everybody, you know?

I'm not contesting that. I agree that the options for homosexual gamers have been practically non-existent, especially for men. Giving options for these players and their characters in ME3 is a great thing, and I applaud Bioware for doing so. They should have done it in the previous games, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

And I will be playing through the romances, even if they are strictly homosexual. I'm sure I will enjoy them. The one reason I haven't played a gay ManShep is that there were simply no options for him, so why bother. I'm glad that I can do so now, as it provides more roleplay opprotunities.

But I can't imagine that it will feel much better to me than 'trudging' through the straight romances of ME1 and ME2 felt to you. The fact that I have other options for any straight Shepard I play wouldn't make it much better if the s/s romancable characters are the ones that would fit that Shepard the best. I mean sure, my lesbian characters always had Liara and Kelly, but dammit, some of them would have fit so well with Miranda, Jack or Tali! Cutting out options for straight characters doesn't seem any better to me than doing so for gay characters.

Like I said, it doesn't bother me that much, but it does bother me.

[jlb524]

who would know wrote...
So if the new romances appeal to you, then try them. What's stopping you? I trudged my way through straight romances because they were all that was available, so you might be able to put aside your differences and enjoy a gay romance, too. Not everything can be designed for everybody, you know?

I don't like straight romances (for various completely subjective reasons) and won't play them.  Some feel the way about homosexual romances.

Why should I 'trudge' through it and do something I don't enjoy/can't relate to/can't get into/etc?

Modifié par jlb524, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:20 .

[Chun Hei]

I am a straight woman who always romances males with my characters even if my hero is male if the gay option is available or I have a mod. Maybe I read to much into it but the female LIs a lot to times seem to be written as LIs first that the writers then try to find a role for them in the game. The male characters seem to be written to fill a role in the game and THEN it seems TO ME that the writers decide if he is going to be a LI or not.

So far the only male LI that struck me as a LI-first style character is Thane and that may be why I really have no desire to romance him.

The thing that pisses me off about the male LIs is that Bioware seems to make them obsess over dead lovers, children or sisters. I swear I want to kill that warrior cleric in BG2 every time he told my female hero that she reminded him of his sister. That is why I am SO glad Fenris has amnesia and head canon a love scene where my female Hawke savagely bangs his brains out to reward him.

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Chun Hei wrote...
The thing that pisses me off about the male LIs is that Bioware seems to make them obsess over dead lovers, children or sisters. I swear I want to kill that warrior cleric in BG2 every time he told my female hero that she reminded him of his sister. That is why I am SO glad Fenris has amnesia and head canon a love scene where my female Hawke savagely bangs his brains out to reward him.

Bioware LOVES this trope.  They even do it to romances not relegated to
the PC (Aveline, Kasumi).  One of the brand-new romances has Carth
Onassi syndrome, even.

Modifié par Red by Full Metal Jacket, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Ryzaki]

I know!

I swear if *spoiler* compares shep to *spoiler* dead spouse I will lose it.

[Gespenst]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Carth Onassi syndrome, even.

*googles*

Oh right -

Aarin Gend. ...A rather unmemorable fellow.

I remember him. ._.

[Abispa]

Maybe they could have a female LI using the male LI formula. You know, have Liara constantly talkng about how you remind her of some incredible lover she once had but who died tragically. Oh wait, Bioware did do that with Jaheria. I was SO happy when she was petrified by that trap set by the Eyeless One. SMASH! And no chance for resurrection.

Modifié par Abispa, 07 décembre 2011 - 01:18 .

[who would know]

CastonFolarus wrote...

But I can't imagine that it will feel much better to me than 'trudging' through the straight romances of ME1 and ME2 felt to you.

It felt okay. Maybe "trudging" was the wrong word. What I meant to say was that, in the end, I was able to appreciate them for what they were, instead of wishing they were something they weren't.

I mean sure, my lesbian characters always had Liara and Kelly, but dammit, some of them would have fit so well with Miranda, Jack or Tali!

Tell me about it .

jlb524 wrote...

Why should I 'trudge' through it and do something I don't enjoy/can't relate to/can't get into/etc?

Um, you shouldn't? The content can't accomodate every interest, so if the genders involved pose an insurmountable barrier to your enjoyment, then you should skip it. CastonFolarus specifically said "Still doesn't feel good, since I like what I've heard about these new LIs so far." That's what I was responding to.

CastonFolarus wrote...

Going the opposite direction is no more fair an arrangment than before,

Except it is. The new romances do nothing but improve variety, balance, options. Even more fair would be opening up the new pure S/S romances to hetero, and then opening up every pure hetero romance to S/S. Alas.

and it's just going to tick more people off.

I don't mean to sound bitter, but I can't help but feel a mild elation that perhaps these same people that will get riled up over not being catered to for once will finally see a light of sorts about how I've felt for the past two games.

It's not the best feeling... but you get over it.

Modifié par who would know, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[silentassassin264]

CastonFolarus wrote...

But I can't imagine that it will feel much better to me than 'trudging' through the straight romances of ME1 and ME2 felt to you. The fact that I have other options for any straight Shepard I play wouldn't make it much better if the s/s romancable characters are the ones that would fit that Shepard the best. I mean sure, my lesbian characters always had Liara and Kelly, but dammit, some of them would have fit so well with Miranda, Jack or Tali! Cutting out options for straight characters doesn't seem any better to me than doing so for gay characters.

Like I said, it doesn't bother me that much, but it does bother me.

It isn't cutting out options, it is adding options.  Basically you are saying you are all fine and dandy if all the characters are available for heterosexual romance because that is how it should be and if a romance is just for homosexual players it is somehow removing content for heterosexual romances.  

I gave this example before but since I am ranting, let me rehash.  In this hypothetical case, Bioware devs decided late in the cycle to add exclusive s/s characters to ME2 since there were none so Zaeed and Kasumi, the DLC characters with no romance option available originally, were made exclusive s/s romances in addition to the three heterosexual ones for each maleshep and femshep.  If you complain that making Kasumi exclusively lesbian is taking something from heterosexual players then you are dead wrong because she was never going to be a romance for maleshep in this scenario.  

As it is, heterosexual romancers have at least like 4 exclusive romance options a piece from ME1 and ME2 (unless VS is bi *crosses fingers*) and as far as I know homosexual romancers will have one a piece in ME3.  It is a four to one ratio so forgive me but I can't feel any sympathy if you are actually bothered by the fact that there will be one female LI that your maleshep will not be able to romance.

[HK-90210]

who would know wrote...

and it's just going to tick more people off.

I don't mean to sound bitter, but I can't help but feel a mild relief that perhaps those same people that get riled up over not being catered to for once will finally see a light of sorts about how I've felt for the past two games.

It's not the best feeling... but you get over it.

Except they won't. They can't. There is no way a straight gamer can fathom what it is like to be unable to play a character of their own sexual orientation in a game. They'll just feel angry, and they will blame Bioware, the fight for the Love thread, everything but their own intolerance. It's a punishment they deserve, certainly, and I'll be laughing along with you guys at their own impotent anger once the game comes out.

But I'll also empathize with that anger, as much as I hate to admit it. People like me(and yes, I know my anger is closer to that of a spoiled teenager than someone with a legitimate gripe), will sit there feeling like we've done nothing wrong, but we're paying for having s/s romances in our favorite game. I've always supported Fight for the Love, and I'm relieved that I'll finally be able to play a gay ManShep. But that doesn't diminish my dissapointment that there will be great romances that I won't be able to experience with characters of my prefered sexual orientation.

I know I don't feel what you have for the past two games and more. I can empathize, but I can never understand. But at least you understand how I feel. Like you say, it's not the best feeling, and I'll get over it. But it still sucks. And it just seems like it was perfectly avoidable.

But I suppose if enough people get 'good' feelings over having exclusive s/s romances in ME3, it will offset making people like me feel left out. You can't please everyone, and maybe it won't be such a bad thing for straight gamers who have supported s/s romances to 'take one for the team'. But to be honest, it feels like a case of friendly fire right now.

[HK-90210]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I gave this example before but since I am ranting, let me rehash.  In this hypothetical case, Bioware devs decided late in the cycle to add exclusive s/s characters to ME2 since there were none so Zaeed and Kasumi, the DLC characters with no romance option available originally, were made exclusive s/s romances in addition to the three heterosexual ones for each maleshep and femshep.  If you complain that making Kasumi exclusively lesbian is taking something from heterosexual players then you are dead wrong because she was never going to be a romance for maleshep in this scenario. 

Three things would bother me about this senario. One, that there were no s/s romances in the first place. Two, that they added as an afterthought. And three, that both the o/s and s/s romances were exclusive. Three wrongs do not make a right. A half step forward, two and a half steps back.

silentassassin264 wrote...

As it is, heterosexual romancers have at least like 4 exclusive romance options a piece from ME1 and ME2 (unless VS is bi *crosses fingers*) and as far as I know homosexual romancers will have one a piece in ME3.  It is a four to one ratio so forgive me but I can't feel any sympathy if you are actually bothered by the fact that there will be one female LI that your maleshep will not be able to romance.

There are two homosexual romances, one male, one female. Not sure about the VS, but I am crossing my fingers as well. I have always been in favor of making the ME2 romances bi, and it is a damn shame that that doesn't appear to be happening. But making players like me pay for the mistakes of the developers doesn't seem indicative of fairness or equality, two things this thread(and it predecessor) were based around.

silentassassin264 wrote...

It isn't cutting out options, it is adding options. Basically you are saying you are all fine and dandy if all the characters are available for heterosexual romance because that is how it should be and if a romance is just for homosexual players it is somehow removing content for heterosexual romances.

I am saying that all romance options should be available to all sexual oreintations.

[who would know]

CastonFolarus wrote...

And it just seems like it was perfectly avoidable.

If it's any consolation, that tired time/resources argument might actually be legitimately employed here. From what I've read, the S/S romances actually are tailored for gender specificity, so it would cost BioWare more time and resources to develop them as gender neutral, in this case. That doesn't apply to, say, almost every other romance, which largely tend to be devoid of any reference to gender, making their gender specificity... frustrating, to say the least.

I think the S/S romances will feel all the more richer because of the gender specifity. It's another dimension to it. The hetero romances could have benefited from a heavier dose of gender references, too, because they were exclusive based on nothing but gender, after all. May as well give reasons.

[who would know]

How are you "paying" for anything? Remember that, despite your desire for the new romances to be open for both genders, there has been nothing lost, only gained.

Modifié par who would know, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[HK-90210]

who would know wrote...

How are you "paying" for anything? Remember that despite your desire for the new romances to be open to both genders, there has been nothing lost, only gained.

By that logic, the ME2 romances involved nothing lost as well. I would disagree with that. Making them only o/s was the wrong descision. It prevented player options. I hold the same opinion with these new s/s exclusive romances. What has been lost is the opprotunity to experience the romances in all sexual orientations. The new LIs appear to be designed as s/s only, and I think that is wrong. The same way that designing the ME2 romances as only o/s was wrong.

[who would know]

(I keep editing my posts after you've quoted them...)

CastonFolarus wrote...

By that logic, the ME2 romances involved nothing lost as well.

Indeed. The gains made were not what you and I would have done, but that isn't synonymous with a loss.

I think gender specificity is wrong only if there's no reason. The new characters seem to have reasons. Do you have any opinion on my feeling that their development as purely S/S romances will actually enrich them?

And I still don't see how you've been made to "pay for the mistakes of the developers" ?

[HK-90210]

who would know wrote...

(I keep editing my posts after you've quoted them...)

CastonFolarus wrote...

By that logic, the ME2 romances involved nothing lost as well.

Indeed. The gains made were not what you and I would have done, but that isn't synonymous with a loss.

I think gender specificity is wrong only if there's no reason. The new characters seem to have reasons. Do you have any opinion on my feeling that their development as purely S/S romances will actually enrich them?

And I still don't see how you've been made to "pay for the mistakes of the developers" ?

It is a loss of a maximum gain. It's a lost opprotunity. The romances are still great, just not as great as they could be if exclusivity was taken away. Hell, if I counted all the romances as loses, I wouldn't bloody play them in the first place.

To be honest, I don't think having a purely o/s or s/s romance really 'enriches' the romance. I think gender specificity adds next to nothing, and can only take away player options. Sounds like you and I disagree in that regard. Thank God for diversity of opinions, or this world would be damn boring.

In retrospect, 'pay for the mistakes of the developers' was too strong. It comes from the logic that Fight for the Love was a HUGE part of why s/s romances were included(I think that can be agreed upon), and Bioware making exclusive s/s romances in ME3 was a way to try to make up for the ME2 romances being what they were. That seems to be a lot of assumtion on my part, considering that all of this is based off a script that could be as much as a 10-12 months old. Retracted.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[Ryzaki]

I'm pretty sure FFTL is older than 12 months.

Pretty sure.

I think...

Good lord how old is this thread? Not this precise thread but the earliest FFTL thread?

Hm the earliest FFTL thread is about 9 or 8 months I think. The earliest S/S thread is back at least a year. Blargh why aren't the posts dated? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:38 .

[HK-90210]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm pretty sure FFTL is older than 12 months.

Pretty sure.

I think...

Good lord how old is this thread? Not this precise thread but the earliest FFTL thread?

Hm the earliest FFTL thread is about 9 or 8 months I think. The earliest S/S thread is back at least a year. Blargh why aren't the posts dated? 

Are you counting all the time FFTL was simply "Support Same-Sex Romance in ME3"? Because that was around in the first couple months of release. The movement just hadn't been organized yet.

But actually being called FFTL? I think the 8-9 month range sounds right for that.

Edit: You know, considering how long the Bioware Social site has been around, you'd think they would have made the dating more precise by now. I suppose they'll get to that after they make a better on-site search engine.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Yeah the first thread to be called Fight For the Love is only around 6 months but the one with the original OP is about a year old (it was called Same Sex Romances back then though pretty sure that's when the organization started).

I know. They're dating sucks. "About 1 year ago." Grrrr.

[who would know]

CastonFolarus wrote...

I think gender specificity adds next to nothing, and can only take away player options.

Even if there is dialogue/content integrated specially for that same gender? And yes, options do take a hit, but realistically, we won't see many currently-hetero romances become non-exclusive, so I don't see why it should go one way and not the other. Player options can only be so expansive, and that will continue to be the case, unfortunately but also understandably.

CastonFolarus wrote...

It's a lost opprotunity. The romances are still great, just not as great as they could be if exclusivity was taken away.

We agree on this. But before time/resources is spent making the S/S romances available as O/S, I want to know that every romance will be available as both, which, let's admit, is not gonna happen.

Modifié par who would know, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:16 .

[HK-90210]

who would know wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

I think gender specificity adds next to nothing, and can only take away player options.

Even if there is dialogue/content integrated specially for that same gender? And yes, options do take a hit, but realistically, we won't see many currently-hetero romances become non-exclusive, so I don't see why it should go one way and not the other. Player options can only be so expansive, and that will continue to be the case, unfortunately but also understandably.

That's true, but having romances available for both genders seems such an easy thing to provide. They had the dialogue recorded all the way back in ME1. They simply decided not to implement it. I'm not sure if they even got that far in ME2, but if they thought about it for the first game, they had to have thought about it for the second game, at least early in the process.

And for me, no amount of integrated dialogue/content can make up for the lost opprotunity of a Miranda/Femshep romance. Ever. And to make a similar exclusion now just to try to even the scales wouldn't be enough to make up for the ME2 mistakes anyway. So all the exclusivety does is limit player choices that could easily be provided. Hence why I disapprove.

who would know wrote...

We agree on this. But before time/resources is spent making the S/S romances available as O/S, I want to know that every romance will be available as both, which, let's admit, is not gonna happen.

Yeah, Tali, Garrus and VS might become s/s as well, since they are squadmates again. But it's still pretty slim. At least for Tali/Garrus. VS I put at about 60/40 chance, but the dialogue gives us no clues one way or the other. But Jacob, Thane, Jack and Miranda are are almost certainly forever o/s romances. Why o why didn't they go bi in ME2?! Think of all the pain that could have saved! And all the pissed off bigots it could have...pissed off.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[LukaCrosszeria]

Wondering if anyone knows when BioWare is expected announce the s/s LI for Shep. I'm not asking for an exact date, just a general idea in terms of months, weeks? I've missed the romance announcements about the previous ME and DA installments, so I don't know how it usually goes.

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

They said in March they'd give the list but really they should just have brand new LIs like Vega and flings like Shiala be the s/s romances.