25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Sinekein]

Shep will have to control his "krogan-headbutt" reflex for the romance to happen.

[Abispa]

If Wrex and my Shepard have a son, they're going to name him Sue.

[Ravensword]

Abispa wrote...

If Wrex and my Shepard have a son, they're going to name him Sue.

As in Mary Sue?

[Abispa]

Ravensword wrote...

Abispa wrote...

If Wrex and my Shepard have a son, they're going to name him Sue.

As in Mary Sue?

Nope.





Back on topic before we draw the wrath of Woo...

Um...

I really hope that the rumored gay-male-only s/s LI doesn't keep telling Shepard that he reminds him of his dead husband/boyfriend/lover/brother.

[Quething]

I think they only think women think that's sexy.

Of course demographically I suppose they expect mostly women to play the m/m romances, so that doesn't help, does it?

[Gespenst]

Fleshdress wrote...

I imagine in the end any kissing will look like Wrex trying to eat Sheps head. Which honestly sort of fits his personality.

I imagine krogan kiss like Glaswegians.

Quething wrote...

I think they only think women think that's sexy.

Of course demographically I suppose they expect mostly women to play the m/m romances, so that doesn't help, does it?

Ah yes, "gay men". The mythical demographic buying videogames. We have dismissed that claim.

Modifié par Gespenst, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Quething]

In order of ascending fervency of belief, I think it goes

1) Only nerds play video games,
2) Female nerds don't exist,
3) Gay nerds don't exist,
4) Nerds of color don't exist,
5) Nerds combining at least two of these categories don't exist,
6) If any of these mythical unicorn people do exist, their money is actually less valuable than straight white cis male money. Like if a woman pays you a dollar, you as a man end up with 80 cents in your pocket, so it's significantly less worth your while to market things to them.*

* I'd make a wage gap joke, but it feels too obvious.

That said, if they figure 30% of their market is female** and no more than 10% is gay (since that's the maximum figure you can get more than two people to agree on for the general human population), gearing the m/m romances more toward what the slashers want than what the gay guys want *is* a more efficient use of resources. Or, what they think the slashers want, I should say, which obviously deflates the efficiency quite a bit when they're wrong.

** An average based on the gender demographics for RPGs and FPSes and how much BioWare probably managed to pull from each crowd. I don't know any figures for the ME franchise specifically.

Modifié par Quething, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:43 .

[Ryzaki]

Oi vey *puts head in hands*

The sad thing is I see those attitudes far too (why did I type more? Brain fart) often. Not too much 4 but everything else. *groans*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[Gespenst]

Quething wrote...

In order of ascending fervency of belief, I think it goes

1) Only nerds play video games,
2) Female nerds don't exist,
3) Gay nerds don't exist,
4) Nerds of color don't exist,
5) Nerds combining at least two of these categories don't exist,
6) If any of these mythical unicorn people do exist, their money is actually less valuable than straight white cis male money. Like if a woman pays you a dollar, you as a man end up with 80 cents in your pocket, so it's significantly less worth your while to market things to them.*

So what you're saying is... if you're a wealthy, black, gay, female nerd ... mathematically speaking you don't exist? (In the eyes of the marketing department anyway. Although that's probably an unusually specific group to aim for.)

[who would know]

Quething wrote...

I think they only think women think that's sexy.

Well, I can only speak for myself: being compared to an ex is not flattering or sexy in the least, and as a character trait, I don't know why it even makes it off the drawing board. Who wants that? I want my Shepard to connect with another person, not for that person to use my Shepard to reinforce their attachment issues, nor for that person to use my Shepard to get over them. Not interested in therapy, not in a video game.

[Ryzaki]

who would know wrote...

Quething wrote...

I think they only think women think that's sexy.

Well, I can only speak for myself: being compared to an ex is not flattering or sexy in the least, and as a character trait, I don't know why it even makes it off the drawing board. Who wants that? I want my Shepard to connect with another person, not for that person to use my Shepard to reinforce their attachment issues, nor for that person to use my Shepard to get over them. Not interested in therapy, not in a video game.

http://t0.gstatic.co...OnVhYBPnpRpumfH

That is all.

I don't know why they think Carth Syndrome is sexy. It's like...anti-sexy.

And also agreed. I don't find it sexy either. It's a turnoff.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[jlb524]

Someone somewhere has to find it sexy...

[Xilizhra]

jlb524 wrote...

Someone somewhere has to find it sexy...

I suspect it has to do with low self-esteem. Like, if you're told you just have various good qualities, you'll disbelieve it, but if you're compared to someone else whom you can't dismiss, it's harder to get rid of and sticks better as a compliment.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Someone somewhere has to find it sexy...

I suspect it has to do with low self-esteem. Like, if you're told you just have various good qualities, you'll disbelieve it, but if you're compared to someone else whom you can't dismiss, it's harder to get rid of and sticks better as a compliment.

"You're awesome!  You want to know how awesome?  You're just like my dead wife/husband who was my favorite person ever before they died!"

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Someone somewhere has to find it sexy...

Sure people find many things sexy. But...me personally? No. No thanks.

Edit: @above post: *shudders* That's exactly what I can't stand about it!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[Xilizhra]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Someone somewhere has to find it sexy...

I suspect it has to do with low self-esteem. Like, if you're told you just have various good qualities, you'll disbelieve it, but if you're compared to someone else whom you can't dismiss, it's harder to get rid of and sticks better as a compliment.

"You're awesome!  You want to know how awesome?  You're just like my dead wife/husband who was my favorite person ever before they died!"

I didn't say it had to make sense from an outside viewpoint. But that's pretty much how it'd go, yes.

[who would know]

jlb524 wrote...

"You're awesome! You want to know how awesome? You're just like my dead wife/husband who was my favorite person ever before they died!"

Also, it feels like filler in the writing to incessantly reference an absent third party because, otherwise, there might actually be a deeper bond developed between the two parties that are present. They're the ones who matter, or the ones who should matter, anyway.

[Abispa]

I think part of the problem is that game makers don't know how to write a confident, even aggressive male character who pursues a female hero. I am not sure how this applies to their rumored gay male LI in ME3, but I've read that he IS supposed to have a dead husband.

Imagine playing a female hero and the NPC designated as a LI tells you he wants you for your body, and EXPECTS that you are going to give in to his "charms"? Or that he wants you to give up adventuring so you won't hurt his baby you're carrying? Maybe Bioware is afraid to offend the women who don't want to be harassed in a fantasy game, or male players of female characters who are just looking for some HAWT lesbian action and are creeped out by enduring what so many women have to put up with from guys.

Thane was a "bad boy" (!?) according to Kelly and female Shepard? And Zevran makes his randier comments about the Warden AFTER s/he definitely accepts his advances. Until then he merely sounds hopeful.

I wonder how many players who claim Morrigan isn't "really" evil would feel about her is she were a male character with exactly the same attitude toward magic, heterosexual sex, and ethical treatment of others? Would the "dark ritual" have been as acceptable if he had to impregnate the Warden, and she had to agree to let him take the baby after it was born? Or if a nearly naked male Jack, had laughed and bragged about being a mass murderer, vandal, and psychopath? Would the renegade sex be considered "fun" then?

I get the feeling that the bad girls can be as bad, even evil, as they want and still be "good guys," because game players and designers don't really take them seriously. Tough bad girls are like the mythical Krogans, a silly and playful action game cliche.

Maybe renegade sex with male Jack would be fun? I would like Bioware to actually make some potentially offensive male LIs, provided they also give the player a variety of different ways to respond favorably or unfavorably. And I wonder what tropes will be created if Bioware continues to create gay-exclusive LIs, or will they cliches just switch genders preferences? I have a hard time picturing Bioware making a gay male Morrigan, but I have an easier time seeing a lesbian Carth Onassi.

Wow, does this post even make sense? It's WAY late for me and I'm going blind trying to proof read this. I'll revisit tomorrow.

Modifié par Abispa, 11 décembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[Olive Oomph]

I am not really ready to expose myself to the full extend of the spoilers, but I am rather curious, what kind of woman the rumored new lesbian LI is. Does anybody know of a short description of her personality, that doesn't spoil the actual dialog?

[Quething]

Abispa wrote...

I wonder how many players who claim Morrigan isn't "really" evil would feel about her is she were a male character with exactly the same attitude toward magic, heterosexual sex, and ethical treatment of others?

Huh. This is an odd statement to me because I feel like a lot of the people who like Morrigan do so because they think she's more evil than she actually is. I've always noticed a trend (across all media, certianly including BioWare games) that writers always try to tone women down as bad guys, compared to men. Isabela and Morrigan had ****ty childhoods and bad experiences, and they are *at worst* callous and supportive of the PC being so. Thane and Zevran speak fondly of their pasts and are unrepentant assassins. Jack, as you say, has committed heinous crimes, but she also has a hugely sympathetic sob story of being raised in a torture camp and conditioned to near-sociopathy by determined scientists with a profound understanding of human psychology. What's Zaeed's excuse?

I mean, I agree with you that writers don't tend to take dangerous women seriously - Ashley's new outfit is more than enough proof of that - but I would say it more usually takes the form of neutering them than handwaving them. Men can be driven by principle or self-indulgence or sheer malice, but women need something that makes them "not that bad, really," preferably if it's a horrible survival story that lets us know they've been powerless victims and takes the teeth out of any real threat they pose now. (Is my superhero fangirling showing?) If they're at all evil, they of course get a redemption story, so they can move toward more acceptable female behavior.

This translates really easy to a love interest plotline. We've got centuries of literature to draw from in terms of white knights saving princesses, dudes rescuing ladies and inspiring them to embrace true socially conforming femininity and morality. Pretty much any writer can write that with a fair degree of confidence, and rest assured that a lot of the target market, regardless of gender, will identify with and like it. It's a fine story after all, time-tested, and while it squicks the hell out of me when taken to excess (Merrill/Isabela Rivalmance, Jack romance), I can't deny its strong appeal when done well.

Thing is, you can't flip it around and have a male LI rescue and protect the female PC. Because seriously.  But you can't have the female PC rescue the male LI either; there's no precedent for that, there's no canon to draw on when trying to picture what a vulnerable male hero looks like. If a male is vulnerable he's not heroic. And if he's not heroic he's not a good match for the PC.

The Carth is, I think, the closest compromise they can think of. The one kind of thing it's okay for a woman to save a man from is loneliness. Emotional distress. Heartbreak. A lost ex is a good way to generate that, and so is an estranged son - those aren't "unmanly" things to be hurt by.

You can, of course, write a relationship of equals where neither saves the other from anything in particular or substantially shifts the other's outlook, but then you have to actually sit down and figure out some other form of character growth to drive the relationship, and find a way to portray it engagingly. That takes a lot of zots and talent, and you're not always going to have both, particularly not in an action-focused video game. And if you're looking at the game from the perspective of "most people playing this will be straight males who will, if they play a romance at all, play a straight romance with a male PC," and you yourself are a straight male, it will be both easier and more familiar and a more appealing use of your resources to spend that creativity and those zots on the female love interests.


edit: holy teal deer, Batman. Guess it's late over here too 

Modifié par Quething, 11 décembre 2011 - 01:53 .

[Xilizhra]

I mean, I agree with you that writers don't tend to take dangerous women seriously - Ashley's new outfit is more than enough proof of that - but I would say it more usually takes the form of neutering them than handwaving them. Men can be driven by principle or self-indulgence or sheer malice, but women need something that makes them "not that bad, really," preferably if it's a horrible survival story that lets us know they've been powerless victims and takes the teeth out of any real threat they pose now. (Is my superhero fangirling showing?) If they're at all evil, they of course get a redemption story, so they can move toward more acceptable female behavior.

That this is sexism-driven is unfortunate, because I love redemption stories and wish we could see more of them, for both genders.

[Abispa]

I guess I was mixing up my view by going back and forth about the LIs lives at large and their sex lives with the PC. Female LIs are "calmed down" by the hero having relations with them, but male LIs are "strengthened" by having relations with the hero. I really can't put my finger on exactly how I get that impression.

As for Morrigan in particular, I've always considered her to be JUST PLAIN EVIL. She not only has no empathy for others, but she is enthusiastic about others, even "innocents," being harmed if she can get some benefit. The one female CE character I beat the game with (my other BSN avatar) discovered this after giving her the mirror in Orzammar. She listened to Morrigan's weepy "we're sisters" speech and how she's envious that the hero loved HER mom. Awww. An hour later we're in the Alienage and she's throwing a fit because the hero won't allow the Tevinter mage to perform some vile blood magic ritual. A ritual sacrificing all of her friends and her own father to get some super powers.

Zevran could also be considered evil, but he, too, has a "tragic childhood." Zevran also is a bi-LI and the one thing I've noticed about him is how obvious he was about being "ready made" to assume the position for the hero, not just sexually but emotionally. Leliana was the same in that regard.

Modifié par Abispa, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:50 .

[misi-chan]

Hi guys! Long time no see I'm actually covering my eyes because I don't want to read *any* spoiler, but could any of you please PM me with the names of the possible s/s romances? Just, you know, the names, nothing super spoilerish. Thank you c:

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
As for Morrigan in particular, I've always considered her to be JUST PLAIN EVIL. She not only has no empathy for others, but she is enthusiastic about others, even "innocents," being harmed if she can get some benefit.

But she's very much a sympathetic character because of her awful childhood with Flemeth.  There's a reason she is the way she is...and we, the audience, are to pity her for it.  Morrigan's never been loved by another and the Warden can possibly fix that.

Also, I thought you could tell her to 'start being nicer' on the romance path?  I'm not sure how that works out, as I never take that option...I've heard it 'softens' her, similar to how you can 'harden' Leliana or Alistair.