25715 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Patrick Weekes explaines in a remarkable LJ post why he typically writes Shepard as gender neutral character.  Here is his follow up post too, which is also a good read.

And he writes like that to have characters & story treat male & female Shep equally when the content is available for both of them (which is, 99,99% cases). But when a romance is restricted to one gender, then there's nothing to compare dialogues to that one gender to and thus this is why in case of o/s romances, they don't really write gender-neutral. Case in point - Garrus ME3 romance lines. They leave no doubt he's only for FemShep. Neither did Kaidan's lines for FemShep in ME1. Then why are Kaidan's lines for new romance in ME3 different?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:12 .

[jlb524]

I'd say most of the romance dialog they write (even for het-only options) is pretty gender neutral, with possibly a few differences.

I think it's better to say that you didn't find any dialog that was specific to only one gender and not the other.

[JamieCOTC]

jlb524 wrote...

I'd say most of the romance dialog they write (even for het-only options) is pretty gender neutral, with possibly a few differences.

I think it's better to say that you didn't find any dialog that was specific to only one gender and not the other.

Agreed.  Case in point, femshep/Jack and femshep/Tali work equally well to broShep in ME2.  And ME1 is a different animal.  Even ME1 Liara has more gender specific dialogue than most ME2 characters. I haven't read the Kaidan/Ash dialogue from the leaks, so I don't know how different they may be.  If K & A romance dialogue is vastly different from one another as in ME1, then IsaacShep may have a good case.  If they are the same, VS dialogue will probably virtually the same throughout the game as in ME2.

[jlb524]

JamieCOTC wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'd say most of the romance dialog they write (even for het-only options) is pretty gender neutral, with possibly a few differences.

I think it's better to say that you didn't find any dialog that was specific to only one gender and not the other.

Agreed.  Case in point, femshep/Jack and femshep/Tali work equally well to broShep in ME2.  And ME1 is a different animal.  Even ME1 Liara has more gender specific dialogue than most ME2 characters. I haven't read the Kaidan/Ash dialogue from the leaks, so I don't know how different they may be.  If K & A romance dialogue is vastly different from one another as in ME1, then IsaacShep may have a good case.  If they are the same, VS dialogue will probably virtually the same throughout the game as in ME2.

I've watched some FemShep/Ashley vids from the modded ME1 romance and it didn't seem that bad as far as not fitting with Shepard's gender (heck, Hale even had VO).   Well, besides Shepard being referred to as 'he' or 'sir'.

IIRC, the only difference the ME1 Liara romance has is Shepard saying 'But you're a woman' (for FemShep) vs. 'But you're an alien' (for ManShep) and Liara's answer differs of course (telling Femshep "but I'm not a woman!  Trufax!")...well, plus the confrontation dialog is different if it's Liara vs. Kaidan or Liara vs. Ashley.

[Gespenst]

IsaacShep wrote...

This doesn't happen with FemShep since Kaidan is the only LI.

...and Liara.

[shepskisaac]

Gespenst wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

This doesn't happen with FemShep since Kaidan is the only LI.

...and Liara.

And how many straight female players romance Liara? Exactly.

[Gespenst]

How does that make Kaiden the only LI for FemShep? You weren't even talking about the orientation or gender of the player.

Modifié par Gespenst, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[shepskisaac]

Gespenst wrote...

How does that make Kaiden the only LI for FemShep?

For most of the players he is since straight people are in majroty. Ain't that obvious?

[jlb524]

IsaacShep wrote...

Gespenst wrote...

How does that make Kaiden the only LI for FemShep?

For most of the players he is since straight people are in majroty. Ain't that obvious?

Still, how does that make him the 'only' LI for FemShep?

He wasn't and I'm guessing a decent amount of FemSheps romanced Liara (or no one) in ME1 and also possibly Virmired him.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[Quething]

jlb524 wrote...

I've watched some FemShep/Ashley vids from the modded ME1 romance and it didn't seem that bad as far as not fitting with Shepard's gender (heck, Hale even had VO).   Well, besides Shepard being referred to as 'he' or 'sir'.

Actually I think there's only one "he" in the whole game ("That's not his fault!" when Anderson is defending the Beacon's destruction to Udina). Ash will also call you a man with a great ass if you pick the "Is that all you see in me" line during the precoital conversation. Two lines in easily sixty hours if you're a completionist and slow at combat.

(Far more distracting are the two cutscenes where you get Meer's voice out of femShep's mouth, but that has nothing to do with the writing, which is sheer gender-neutral the whole way through.

It's much harder on a dudeShep trying to romance Kaidan; "ma'am" is decidedly not gender-neutral, and honestly that's a bit annoying, main!Shep would have corrected Pressly to "Sir" the first time he opened his mouth so it's pretty convenient for her to play the hack to begin with if only for that.

It is a standing annoyance that she isn't able to smack upside the head all those characters in ME2 who insist on disrespectfully calling her "Shepard" all the damn time.)

[shepskisaac]

jlb524 wrote...

He wasn't and I'm guessing a decent amount of FemSheps romanced Liara (or no one) in ME1 and also possibly Virmired him.

This is not about "I know that there are some FemSheps that romance Liara". This is about general, larger trends due to such facts as that male players dominate heavily, have greater selection of o/s LIs thus the "save your lover" thing plays lesser role on Virmire. BioWare did say there are only about 20% FemSheps. And yes, some girls play ManSheps, some guys play FemSheps. But these ain't huge numbers.

Not sure why are people getting defensive on this. I simply said Liara, as an additional o/s LI for straight male players who simply DO dominate this franchise gives Kaidan the advantage. After he was at disadvantage because there's much less FemSheps.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 18 décembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[shepskisaac]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

MShep has 5 o/s options; FShep has 4. I suppose that is a difference, but it's a pretty minor one.

There's also Kelly. And there's also the fact that before ME2, the majority of people didn't know there would be more LIs, who will be, didn't think "ohh I will wait for someone unknown". Of course some did, but most hooked up with existing LIs. And in the ME1 LIs, straight male players who skew the statistics the most due to their dominance, had extra o/s LI, straight FemShep had one. A general statistic was brought up to discuss Kaidan's survival rate so I'm also talking general trends based on general facts like straight male players, who have more LIs, dominating the game and that this will simply naturally help Kaidan survive Virmire in more saves, then it would be the case if straight ManShep only had Ashley as a LI option.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 18 décembre 2011 - 01:00 .

[Quething]

IsaacShep wrote...
BioWare did say there are only about 20% FemSheps.

BioWare said that 80% of people play dudeShep. There's a difference.

(And most players never play a romance at all, so that wouldn't impact the Virmire choice for the Xbox rental majority to begin with.)

Modifié par Quething, 18 décembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Quething wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
BioWare did say there are only about 20% FemSheps.

BioWare said that 80% of people play dudeShep. There's a difference.

(And most players never play a romance at all, so that wouldn't impact the Virmire choice for the Xbox rental majority to begin with.)

Either way the majority of content is being seen by male Shep.

And yeah it doesn't make a difference because romancers are a minority. So yeah... Either way alot of people aren't seeing said content.

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
BioWare did say there are only about 20% FemSheps.

BioWare said that 80% of people play dudeShep. There's a difference.

(And most players never play a romance at all, so that wouldn't impact the Virmire choice for the Xbox rental majority to begin with.)

True, but then it becomes a minefield of guessing and trying to work out who saved who, and why. 

We know in very vague terms that more people played maleSheps generally, that more players saved Ashley, generally, and that Bioware have the numbers to confirm this. 

That said, there are arguments for [character x] being more or less likely as an s/s if they're more or less numerous. We don't know which one Bioware is going to use, or if it's irrelevant. More [character x]s out in the gameworld means it's easier to justify the investment, but fewer of them means it's easier to put in content and not have an absurdly vocal segment of the fanbase scream about it.  

I think it's largely irrelevant; we've already seen that both characters have relatively equal game time and conversation options; that they have their own 'dates', and that there's a reasonably large fanbase for both VS characters. 

[shepskisaac]

Quething wrote...

BioWare said that 80% of people play dudeShep. There's a difference.

Urhm where exactly is the difference? If they said 80% play mShep, doesn't it equal the rest play FemShep. There's no OtherGenderShep to play lol

[Maugrim]

IsaacShep wrote...

Quething wrote...

BioWare said that 80% of people play dudeShep. There's a difference.

Urhm where exactly is the difference? If they said 80% play mShep, doesn't it equal the rest play FemShep. There's no OtherGenderShep to play lol

That number AFAIK, has never been elaborated upon.  For example I've played both Sheps...do I count towards both? Does each Shep count towards both? Does it only count ones who have played X amount of hours? Finished the game?  I don't think anyone is going to argue that generally speaking there are more people playing MShep for more hours but no one really knows to what extent.  The gulf could be smaller OR wider. We DO NOT know.  As the saying goes  "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[Quething]

IsaacShep wrote...

Quething wrote...

BioWare said that 80% of people play dudeShep. There's a difference.

Urhm where exactly is the difference? If they said 80% play mShep, doesn't it equal the rest play FemShep. There's no OtherGenderShep to play lol

As Mac said, there is no context there whatsoever and thus the statistic is completely meaningless.

Do 80% of players have one main Shepard, a male?
Have 80% of players played at least one male Shepard from chargen to the epilogue?
Have 80% of players started at least one male Shepard?

One of the femShep thread regulars had a poll out for a while. There were four answers:
I play always femShep,
I play mostly femShep but have one or more dudeSheps,
I play mostly dudeShep but have one or more femSheps,
I play always dudeShep.

"Always dudeShep" plus "mostly dudeShep" plus "mostly femShep" added up to ~80%. And hey, every one of those players could be considered to "play dudeShep," so there you go, 80%. Except that looking at all the information in that poll revealed that about 50% of the BSN's Shepards are still female. Because a lot of people play dudeShep who also play femShep. Some people have nine or ten femSheps ready for ME3 import and one dudeShep languishing on Freedom's Progress. Doesn't that still count as "plays dudeShep" to the game flag?

That poll doesn't account for 1-playthrough casual gamer purchases, of course, since those people aren't likely to hang out at the BSN, and I can believe that group skews more toward dudeShep. But it is a really quick and obvious demonstration of how blatantly pointless, misleading and useless that "80%" statistic is, given that we have absolutely no details or context for it of any kind.

(also, I imagine femShep players are more likely to turn off feedback. Seems like those would be overlapping demographics.)

Modifié par Quething, 18 décembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Oooooh I'm dense. Nevermind me.

That said I see the point.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[shepskisaac]

Quething wrote...

snip

So basically all statistics are just fun and don't give any insight. Then why do people get defensive when I talk about statistics like number of FemShep but keep referring to statistics when it comes to Kaidan Because if we use BSN as a barometer, than Kaidan has only around 60% death-rate.