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[Abispa]

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Modifié par Abispa, 30 décembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Tietj]

Kawamura wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't get the appeal of 'exclusive' LIs.

I don't give a crap who else is romancing them as long as I can choose to romance who I want in my game, dangnabbit.

this. so much this. 

I hate to sound like I'm on the side of people who don't want Kaidan/Vega to be available as s/s (because I'm not), but they do have a point when they say that sexuality is an integral part of the character.  If Kaidan finds himself in a relationship with my male Shepard, I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

Whether it was resources or they didn't want m/m in the first ME1 game I don't know.

It was both in a certain way. One BioWare dev confirmed himself they were considering making Kaidan available for s/s romance, but due to the fact it was late in developement (after dialogues were already written and at least partially recorded) and that they considered it very low on their priority list, they dropped it. Now what does it tell us? Well, anyone can draw their own conclusion. To me it tells that the idea of male/male romance didn't even occur to them until late in the developement. Something like - "Ohh guys, I think we forgot about our gay male fans, now what? Do we have time to fix that? No? Whoopsie!".

[Kawamura]

Tietj wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't get the appeal of 'exclusive' LIs.

I don't give a crap who else is romancing them as long as I can choose to romance who I want in my game, dangnabbit.

this. so much this. 

I hate to sound like I'm on the side of people who don't want Kaidan/Vega to be available as s/s (because I'm not), but they do have a point when they say that sexuality is an integral part of the character.  If Kaidan finds himself in a relationship with my male Shepard, I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

Acknowledgement is different. I like how they did in DA2 when they mention it. But I don't like exclusive LI's. Not for gender/sex or species. 

Heck, I'm cool with LI's being exclusive to a certain morality, but as much as sexuality (all of it, orientation, gender identity, etc, etc) is important, I really think that sexual orientation isn't a big defining thing, especially in a world where s/s pairs seem to be less of a big deal than our own.

[priestess of blood]

Tietj wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't get the appeal of 'exclusive' LIs.

I don't give a crap who else is romancing them as long as I can choose to romance who I want in my game, dangnabbit.

this. so much this. 

I hate to sound like I'm on the side of people who don't want Kaidan/Vega to be available as s/s (because I'm not), but they do have a point when they say that sexuality is an integral part of the character.  If Kaidan finds himself in a relationship with my male Shepard, I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

Exactly, I'm a fan of kaidan/ash as well and would be thrilled to have them as a s/s option but a part of me doesn't sit right with the whole shepard/hawkesexual way they have handled it, and it would be nice to have character written from the ground up to be gay/lesbian, the risk of course is what if we don't like these new characters personality?

[jlb524]

Tietj wrote...
I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

No one acknowledges that heterosexual exclusive LIs are heterosexual.

Why must bisexuality/homosexuality have to be acknowledged in these romances?

I liked the fact that my DA2 romance (Merrill) didn't go on about how they were both chicks and how that is some big deal or something.

priestess of blood wrote...
and it would be nice to have character written from the ground up to be gay/lesbian, the risk of course is what if we don't like these new characters personality?

How do you write a character from the ground up as 'gay or lesbian'?

What I don't like about this is that it seems any LI that isn't heterosexual is a sexuality first and a character second.

A heterosexual LI is a character first and a sexuality second (or last...their sexuality is a non-entity, really).

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Tietj]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Whether it was resources or they didn't want m/m in the first ME1 game I don't know.

It was both in a certain way. One BioWare dev confirmed himself they were considering making Kaidan available for s/s romance, but due to the fact it was late in developement (after dialogues were already written and at least partially recorded) and that they considered it very low on their priority list, they dropped it. Now what does it tell us? Well, anyone can draw their own conclusion. To me it tells that the idea of male/male romance didn't even occur to them until late in the developement. Something like - "Ohh guys, I think we forgot about our gay male fans, now what? Do we have time to fix that? No? Whoopsie!".

I'm the last person to bash Bioware; I love them, it's probably my favorite game company, but I don't give them a pass for the lack of male s/s options in ME1 and ME2.  And ironically, I WOULD have given them a pass if they hadn't made Liara available to female Shepards.  And even given that, I would have given them a pass if they hadn't come up with the incredibly weak defense that she's not female, because she can protest that male and female have no meaning to the Asari all she wants but as she said that she was practically poking my eyes out with her boobs.  And if that weren't enough, in ME2 we were introduced to Kelly. 

[priestess of blood]

jlb524 wrote...

Tietj wrote...
I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

No one acknowledges that heterosexual exclusive LIs are heterosexual.

Why must bisexuality/homosexuality have to be acknowledged in these romances?

I liked the fact that my DA2 romance (Merrill) didn't go on about how they were both chicks and how that is some big deal or something.

You do bring up a very good point there, the idea that it isn't anything worth bringing up because it's natural is very important.

For me, I suppose the problem was that it didn't really feel like that was why

Modifié par priestess of blood, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:06 .

[Abispa]

Tietj wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't get the appeal of 'exclusive' LIs.

I don't give a crap who else is romancing them as long as I can choose to romance who I want in my game, dangnabbit.

this. so much this. 

I hate to sound like I'm on the side of people who don't want Kaidan/Vega to be available as s/s (because I'm not), but they do have a point when they say that sexuality is an integral part of the character.  If Kaidan finds himself in a relationship with my male Shepard, I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing).

As a hetero player who plays predominately hetero heroes, I can assure you that NONE of the straight relationships are "realistic" in their sexuality. I'm a guy, so every female who can will wink, stare, touch my arm, proposition me, rip off my pants in elevators, demand to be impregnated, bite my ear, slap my ass, "accidentally" reveal cleavage, and/or wear skin-tight cat suits with an ass-cam close up. Having "Shepard-sexual" characters who have to be approached first by the player seems, I don't know, more desirable somehow.

[Tietj]

jlb524 wrote...


No one acknowledges that heterosexual exclusive LIs are heterosexual.

Why must bisexuality/homosexuality have to be acknowledged in these romances?

I liked the fact that my DA2 romance (Merrill) didn't go on about how they were both chicks and how that is some big deal or something.

Well... to some people, it is a big deal.  Maybe not in the world of the game itself (although they do specify in Dragon Age that it's not common or usual; Anders even expresses surprise that Hawke is willing to be so open about his attraction, when most people don't speak of it often), but to some of the players it really does matter. 

[shepskisaac]

priestess of blood wrote...

Exactly, I'm a fan of kaidan/ash as well and would be thrilled to have them as a s/s option but a part of me doesn't sit right with the whole shepard/hawkesexual way they have handled it, and it would be nice to have character written from the ground up to be gay/lesbian, the risk of course is what if we don't like these new characters personality?

What's important is the final writing outcome. And frankly, if things stay the way they are, then Vega's gonna be a worse case of Shepard-sexual than Kaidan (assuming they're both available for s/s). Vega makes multiple comments on hot girls and their "assets", while nothing towards males. The way it looks like ATM, is that they will sell him as straight-bro who you wouldn't know he's bi unless you picked flirting option (if that option is even available for mShep).

[android654]

That's a good point, personally, Ash, Kaidan, Thane, Jack and Kasumi would have been my picks to be bisexual. Ash and Kaidan due to their immense attachment to Shepard, Jack because it's in her past so it's not a shift in character, Thane and Kasumi since their pasts are highly secretive and they both have recent tragic romances end right before ME2 so they're both emotionally susceptible to Shepards advances.

[Ryzaki]

IsaacShep wrote...It was both in a certain way. One BioWare dev confirmed himself they were considering making Kaidan available for s/s romance, but due to the fact it was late in developement (after dialogues were already written and at least partially recorded) and that they considered it very low on their priority list, they dropped it. Now what does it tell us? Well, anyone can draw their own conclusion. To me it tells that the idea of male/male romance didn't even occur to them until late in the developement. Something like - "Ohh guys, I think we forgot about our gay male fans, now what? Do we have time to fix that? No? Whoopsie!".

That makes me laugh way harder than it should've.

Not to mention they probably didn't want to draw short straws to do the scene where you had to see shadowy naked Kaidan and dude Shep. Even the FemShepxKaidan scene mainly focuses on FemShep's body.
(just playing devs. )

@Tietj: Same. 

[Tietj]

priestess of blood wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Tietj wrote...
I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

No one acknowledges that heterosexual exclusive LIs are heterosexual.

Why must bisexuality/homosexuality have to be acknowledged in these romances?

I liked the fact that my DA2 romance (Merrill) didn't go on about how they were both chicks and how that is some big deal or something.

You do bring up a very good point there, the idea that it isn't anything worth bringing up because it's natural is very important.

We get a sense of this in some of Cortez's leaked dialogue, which is awesome.

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...


That makes me laugh way harder than it should've.

Not to mention they probably didn't want to draw short straws to do the scene where you had to see shadowy naked Kaidan and dude Shep. Even the FemShepxKaidan scene mainly focuses on FemShep's body.
(just playing devs. )

@Tietj: Same. 

I don't have link to that post right now, but yeah, that BW dev who said it also mentioned the issue of having to create new cutscene for s/s scenes (well, only m/m really since Ash/FemShep could just reuse FemShep/Liara cutscenes)

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[Ryzaki]

IsaacShep wrote...
I don't have link to that post right now, but yeah, that BW dev who said it also mentioned the issue of having to create new cutscene for s/s scenes (well, only m/m really since Ash/FemShep could just reuse FemShep/Liara cutscenes)

They could've gone the JE route and had a fade to black after the kiss. I might've been "THAT'S IT?!? " but at least I would've gotten the stuff before that. 
 

[priestess of blood]

Ryzaki wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
I don't have link to that post right now, but yeah, that BW dev who said it also mentioned the issue of having to create new cutscene for s/s scenes (well, only m/m really since Ash/FemShep could just reuse FemShep/Liara cutscenes)

They could've gone the JE route and had a fade to black after the kiss. I might've been "THAT'S IT?!? " but at least I would've gotten the stuff before that. 
 

Haha I remember that from JE, I haven't played that game in forever, fade to black was a bit of a disappointment but at least bioware has always tried, something I can't say for a lot of other games.

Modifié par priestess of blood, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:24 .

[Tietj]

Ryzaki wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
I don't have link to that post right now, but yeah, that BW dev who said it also mentioned the issue of having to create new cutscene for s/s scenes (well, only m/m really since Ash/FemShep could just reuse FemShep/Liara cutscenes)

They could've gone the JE route and had a fade to black after the kiss. I might've been "THAT'S IT?!? " but at least I would've gotten the stuff before that. 
 

I agree, but I think it's kind of embarrassingly obvious that this was just an excuse.  I mean, the cutscenes were about five seconds long.  Plus they already had the models of shirtless Shepard and Kaidan and the location.  I'm no programmer but it doesn't seem like it would take all that long to add this in.

[Ryzaki]

Tietj wrote...
I agree, but I think it's kind of embarrassingly obvious that this was just an excuse.  I mean, the cutscenes were about five seconds long.  Plus they already had the models of shirtless Shepard and Kaidan and the location.  I'm no programmer but it doesn't seem like it would take all that long to add this in.

Eh a five second cutscene could take much longer than that to make. Plus they'd have to keep their...bits covered in shadow, and record the rest of the dialogue, and give the m/m romance some differences from the m/f. It would've taken some effort. I'm not saying it would've taken years but its not that much of a stretch that it would've required more time than they had.

They have no damn excuse for ME2 and that Liara's not female BS though.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[priestess of blood]

jlb524 wrote...

Tietj wrote...
I would prefer there were some acknowledgement that he's gay or bisexual and not just Shepardsexual.  From DA2 I would point out that Anders talks frankly about being bi while Fenris doesn't even mention it, which always kind of bugs me (I'm not bashing Fenris, he's actually the one I usually go with).  Maybe it comes from being gay and male myself (not saying anything about anyone else here's gender or sexuality, of which I know nothing). 

No one acknowledges that heterosexual exclusive LIs are heterosexual.

Why must bisexuality/homosexuality have to be acknowledged in these romances?

I liked the fact that my DA2 romance (Merrill) didn't go on about how they were both chicks and how that is some big deal or something.

priestess of blood wrote...
and it would be nice to have character written from the ground up to be gay/lesbian, the risk of course is what if we don't like these new characters personality?

How do you write a character from the ground up as 'gay or lesbian'?

What I don't like about this is that it seems any LI that isn't heterosexual is a sexuality first and a character second.

A heterosexual LI is a character first and a sexuality second (or last...their sexuality is a non-entity, really).

Poor choice of words is all, I didn't mean to focus on sexuality as their defining point and would be as you say. What I meant is create a character just like any of the others but decide that they are going to be gay or straight, like when they decide that they are going to make a m/f and a f/f scene for liara, but only a m/f for garrus/tali/ash/kaiden.

Make the rest of the character just as they would otherwise

Edit: leaving sexuality out entirely would be preferable if it impacted negitative on the character quality, as I've come to really enjoy biowares storytelling and character driven plots.

Modifié par priestess of blood, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[jlb524]

priestess of blood wrote...

Poor choice of words is all, I didn't mean to focus on sexuality as their defining point and would be as you say. What I meant is create a character just like any of the others but decide that they are going to be gay or straight, like when they decide that they are going to make a m/f and a f/f scene for liara, but only a m/f for garrus/tali/ash/kaiden.

Make the rest of the character just as they would otherwise

Edit: leaving sexuality out entirely would be preferable if it impacted negitative on the character quality, as I've come to really enjoy biowares storytelling and character driven plots.

That is what they do, I think.

They write focusing on the character...tweak the scenes for each gender (make some differences where appropriate) and call it a day.

Tietj wrote...
Well... to some people, it is a big deal.  Maybe not in the world of the game itself (although they do specify in Dragon Age that it's not common or usual; Anders even expresses surprise that Hawke is willing to be so open about his attraction, when most people don't speak of it often), but to some of the players it really does matter. 

I think it's okay to have this for some romances, but I don't get why it should be a requirement for every s/s romance to acknowledge that it is an s/s romance at some point in order for it to be 'good' or ideal.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:38 .

[mauro2222]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't get the appeal of 'exclusive' LIs.

I don't give a crap who else is romancing them as long as I can choose to romance who I want in my game, dangnabbit.

QFT!

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

They could've gone the JE route and had a fade to black after the kiss. I might've been "THAT'S IT?!? " but at least I would've gotten the stuff before that. 

Jade Empire example is the most baffling in all of this. How do they go from having m/m romance in JE to this "we pretend m/m doesn't exist" thing in ME1 & ME2? The main writers on both JE & ME (& KOTOR) were mostly the same. So where was the problem? The fact JE had different producers than ME & KOTOR?

[Kawamura]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

They could've gone the JE route and had a fade to black after the kiss. I might've been "THAT'S IT?!? " but at least I would've gotten the stuff before that. 

Jade Empire example is the most baffling in all of this. How do they go from having m/m romance in JE to this "we pretend m/m doesn't exist" thing in ME1 & ME2? The main writers on both JE & ME (& KOTOR) were mostly the same. So where was the problem? The fact JE had different producers than ME & KOTOR?

I always wondered if it was somehow related to DADT.

I mean, yeah, it's gays in space, but it's still gays in the millitary (in space). 

[Tietj]

Ryzaki wrote...

Tietj wrote...
I agree, but I think it's kind of embarrassingly obvious that this was just an excuse.  I mean, the cutscenes were about five seconds long.  Plus they already had the models of shirtless Shepard and Kaidan and the location.  I'm no programmer but it doesn't seem like it would take all that long to add this in.

Eh a five second cutscene could take much longer than that to make. Plus they'd have to keep their...bits covered in shadow, and record the rest of the dialogue, and give the m/m romance some differences from the m/f. It would've taken some effort. I'm not saying it would've taken years but its not that much of a stretch that it would've required more time than they had.

They have no damn excuse for ME2 and that Liara's not female BS though.

haha, well I agree with all of that, and the last thing I want to do is bash Bioware, which is my favorite company, or Mass Effect, which is my favorite series and was even before I found out they were adding s/s to ME3.  And they can talk about cutscenes and space and genderless boobs all they want and I'll accept it with only slightly rolling my eyes; the only thing that really kind of bugged me was when they insisted (I don't have a link but I remember reading an interview that said this) that male Shepard didn't have any s/s options because he was always meant to be straight.  It's the same thing that a lot of people have been clamoring about on the forums, and getting banned, when they say that Shepard was "obviously" not gay and making him so would be retconning the character, even if you played through the first two games with no LI.  It was kind of a slap to the face, and it's why I said in an earlier post that I wouldn't care if the conversation you have with Cortez is the only thing we got, it's enough to me that I can make my Shepard resemble me now.  And all is forgiven.