25715 réponses à ce sujet

[JoeShep]

jeweledleah wrote...

becasue they aren't.  its only in your headcanon, its not actual reality, anymore then saying that bisexual real person is straight or gay depending on their current partner.

and if that works for you, more power to you, but it doesn't work for everyone.

I hope you can appreciate the ludicrousness of debating the "actual reality" of essentially a 2-D action doll.

I understand that it bothers you that someone somewhere might be immersed in a storyline you don't like, but it does not in any way, shape, or form limit the actual universe of your Shepards. As a colonist or Earthborn Shepard, does one have have to accept that the name and voice of spacer Shepard's mother even applies to them? And if so, should BioWare remove the spacer option because non-spacers have to cope with the idea that Hannah Shepard is not dead in some other universes based on an out-of-game choice?  You are essentially taking a personal problem in your head and arguing that it justifies actual boxing in of other people's universes and their possibilities.

I fully support your ability to choose to only be exposed to heterosexual situations with respect to whatever characters you personally feel should be that way, but I would thank everyone to keep those prejudices out of my Shepards' universes where they would have an actual, real affect.

[Ryzaki]

Ugh please let's not argue. The VS isn't bi anyway.

*dodges tomatoes* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 janvier 2012 - 07:39 .

[Unbannable]

FaWa wrote...

Why can't people grasp on to the fact that characters could be bisexual in one pkaythrough, but straight in another. Why is that so hard to understand?

The characters aren't truly written as bisexual with the "all bi" option, any more than they are heterosexual or homosexual.

Their personal sexuality is practically nonexistent, and is completely subject to the whims of the PC.  Thats why so many people hate the "all bi" option, because it cheapens and degrades the NPC by making them nothing more than a tool for satisfying the PC's personal sexual tastes.

At any rate, last time I checked, Mass Effect 3 isn't a fecking date simulator so being able to romance every available NPC with your Shepard shouldn't even be on the table if you ask me..  It never ceases to amaze me why so many people care about the romances so much, when they are such a small part of the game.

Modifié par Unbannable, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:29 .

[jeweledleah]

JoeShep wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

becasue they aren't.  its only in your headcanon, its not actual reality, anymore then saying that bisexual real person is straight or gay depending on their current partner.

and if that works for you, more power to you, but it doesn't work for everyone.

I hope you can appreciate the ludicrousness of debating the "actual reality" of essentially a 2-D action doll.

I understand that it bothers you that someone somewhere might be immersed in a storyline you don't like, but it does not in any way, shape, or form limit the actual universe of your Shepards. As a colonist or Earthborn Shepard, does one have have to accept that the name and voice of spacer Shepard's mother even applies to them? And if so, should BioWare remove the spacer option because non-spacers have to cope with the idea that Hannah Shepard is not dead in some other universes based on an out-of-game choice?  You are essentially taking a personal problem in your head and arguing that it justifies actual boxing in of other people's universes and their possibilities.

I fully support your ability to choose to only be exposed to heterosexual situations with respect to whatever characters you personally feel should be that way, but I would thank everyone to keep those prejudices out of my Shepards' universes where they would have an actual, real affect.

way to misenterpret my post.

I don't want or need to be exposed to heterosexual situations only.  I, unlike apparently some of the people here, do NOT fear bisexuality.

Anders in my femHawke's games was ALSO in a relationship with Karl, he just hasn't told them about it. When he mentions that in Fereldan circle, everyone was kissing everyone, they don't go "must have been women only".  Leliana in my dwarf commoner's game is not a lesbian, she's a bisexual who just happens to fall in love with a woman at that particular time.  I don't pretend that characters lose/lack parts of themselves. they are all still there, a particular character that I'm playing simply didn't get to learn all about them, unlike me the player. Shepard is a player character.  Shepard is open to interpretation.  other characters?  not so much.  they are not merely 2-d dolls to me.  they are not SIMS.  they are characters with written personalities, responses, moralities and yes, preferences.  you can headcanon them to be whatever you want, but that's just it.  its your headcanon.

unlike you, I only headcanon characters I create myself.  so, selective sexuality doesn't work for me.

and I'm fairly sure that in a universe where shepard is sole survivor, Hannah Shepard still exists, she just didn't have a child, who goes on to become an N7 operative and then saves the world.  they merely adress it better in Dragon age origins, where you learn that those other warden origins? they still existed, they just didn't survive becasue Duncan decided to go in a different direction.

@ Ryz.  you know its a hot button for me.  I can resist a lot of statements, but this one.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:58 .

[Cathey]

The reason I liked the all bi in DA2 was because I do a lot of playthroughs of games like this. So regardless of my characters gender it allowed me to have more freedom when creating these characters and who they would romance. If I play a lesbian Hawke and go with Isabela, Anders and Fenris are straight for all anyone knows. Then if I play a gay male Hawke and decide to romance Anders, Isabela is still bi but that doesn't impact in any way on my game if I don't initiate anything. So it's completely up to me what sexuality someone is in the game regardless of whether or not they openly talk of it. Just because Anders was with that guy doesn't mean there's something wrong with him liking girls too.

The thought of exclusive s/s LI's makes me go all giggly inside because considering we already have straight ones (most of them) and bi ones (Liara) it's only fair, after all. They did it in Fallout: New Vegas with the perk system. Some of the characters in that game could only be flirted with if you were the same gender and had the perk for it. Whilst they weren't really 'romances' it was still a fantastic addition to that game.

Modifié par Cathey, 09 janvier 2012 - 11:13 .

[Chris Readman]

Jumping into this thread for the first time to give my two cents regarding the "all bi" thing. I kind of agree with pizu on this. And before anyone says that I'm just another straight person trying to spread anti-gay propaganda, I must clarify that I'm pretty sure that I'm gay.

To have all love interests suddenly turn bisexual is just... strange. I don't know if it takes away from their character, but it does show that the writers are unable to just tell the story that they wanted to tell. It really seems like fans are undermining the integrity of the writers just so that they can romance their love interest the way they want to.

I understand that people do want to romance the character they are interested in regardless of their character's gender, but it doesn't work that way. If I had the power, everybody I was interested in would be interested in me too. However, the reality is that most people are straight, I accept that fact and move on, that's just how it is.

I'm pretty pleased that they have finally decided to have representation of gay romances in this game, but it made me think whether it was something the writers wanted to do, or if it was something that they were forced to include due to the backlash of having none in the previous titles. If it were the latter, doesn't it seem sad that the writers are unable to tell the story as they intended? It sure feels like a hollow victory if that were the case. In the same line of thinking, if the constant outcry for making X character bisexual succeeds, where is the voice of the writers if fans can just drown them out?

[Ryzaki]

Everytime I hear character intergrity being threatend by all bi romances I laugh.

Yes character intergrity was at the forefront when Alistair married (out of love) my Warden who purged the elves and killed Conner while telling him to shut up and fall in line, character intergrity was at the  forefront when my Warden took the gold from the Tevinter slavers and had the dalish elves slaughtered by the werewolves and Zevran still romanced him. Character intergrity was also very important when my Warden poisoned the ashes and still romanced Leliana. (hardened Leliana but I assumed that "I'll never forgive you for this!" wouldn't lead to a mere 10 disapproval points that I could easily make up by giving her one of those Andraste symbols she likes). Character intergrity is also very important when my Warden told Morrigan he believed in her survival of the fittest philosphy but in reality he helped everyone he came across. She never called him out on his hypocrisy either. That's real character intergrity right there!

Sorry if I don't take that nonsense that never existed in the first place in regards to romances in the first place as a serious reason for restricting choices for others.

Frankly if character intergrity was at all important I do wonder why Ash romances my Shep who punches women in the face or why Tali is swooning all over my renedouche. (or hell why anyone likes renedouche).

Why no cries for Ash dumping Shep for her character intergrity then? Apparently my Shep can bite her head off (in regards to everything except that out of line williams) by calling her incompetent and insulting her religion and she still wants to claw off his pants. That's character intergrity? If so that kind of character intergrity is worthless. Her preferences apparently do matter much if my male Shep wants to romance her not seeing why my Shep being a different gender all of a sudden crosses some imaginary line.

At least in DA2 they reacted to my Hawke being the kind of person who would agitate them. That alone made it head and shoulders above ME. As for vechiles for the player's desire sadly no my player wiles didn't make Merrill give up bloodmagic (she had to lose her whole clan for that to happen) nor did they make Anders give up the fight for mages, nor Fenris lose his mistrust of most mages. Alas! They were only vechiles for my desire in the way of romancing them! Nothing else I'm afraid. A shame because being able to stop Anders from doing a certain act 3 action with the power of my protagonist would've been appreciated!

Meanwhile Ash and Kaidan can be turned almost opposite alignments from what they started as due to Shep romancing them obviously a ...three four month relationship? Is clearly enough cause a grown man/woman to change his/her outlook on aliens because Shep's gentila are just that great (can't even be Shep because friendship Shep can't change their alignment.) They will have a relationship with a renedouche who punches women in the face, kills people for sheer amusement (look at Kaidan's face when Shep decides to open up the gate and kill the mindless salarians) and so on and this is obviously more true to their characters then the DA2 LIs all romancing Hawke no matter his/her gender and making references to his/her gender as well as acknowledging if his/her outlook (based off friend/rivalry) match their own.

Clearly.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 janvier 2012 - 02:20 .

[ElitePinecone]

Chris Readman wrote...
it does show that the writers are unable to just tell the story that they wanted to tell. It really seems like fans are undermining the integrity of the writers just so that they can romance their love interest the way they want to. 

Interestingly enough, the characters that are *possibly* now open to both genders of Shepard after having only been available for one gender in previous games have pretty compelling dialogue that establishes an attraction was always there. Both Shepard and the LI have dialogue that suggests they act on feelings they've had for a while. 

Plus, the two characters who may be newly-bisexual-ised are open to 'new' romances with Shepard (of some gender, we don't know which) anyway. 

Bioware wanted to give new players to the series a chance to romance certain NPCs. We aren't sure if the romances are opposite-sex or same-sex (though I'd assume it's the former by default), but if they're going to go to all the effort of creating them, why not do it for both? 

People can scream retcon until they're blue in the face, but if a writer says '[character x] was always bisexual, and here in ME3 they feel it's the time to approach Shepard', then that's what it is. Believing they had every story arc for every character mapped out at the start of the series is naive. 

Frankly I think the writers care somewhat more about indulging fans than maintaining complete verisimillitude, that's why we have implausible alien romances, no? That sort of indulgance is awesome. We wouldn't have s/s romances at all if the writers didn't think some things were worth doing. 

Lastly: I wouldn't worry. The dialogue is good, in the jumbled bits that I've been able to piece together. At the most, two characters in ME3 are bisexual, and were only available for one gender previously. They have compelling lines, if they are really bisexual (it's very ambiguous and gender-neutral). 

[Ryzaki]

It's not all gender neutral.

The only gender description in the love scene for the VS is that of an o/s Shep I believe (well for Kaidan anyway).

[bas_kon]

Chris Readman wrote...

Jumping into this thread for the first time to give my two cents regarding the "all bi" thing. I kind of agree with pizu on this. And before anyone says that I'm just another straight person trying to spread anti-gay propaganda, I must clarify that I'm pretty sure that I'm gay.

To have all love interests suddenly turn bisexual is just... strange. I don't know if it takes away from their character, but it does show that the writers are unable to just tell the story that they wanted to tell. It really seems like fans are undermining the integrity of the writers just so that they can romance their love interest the way they want to.

I understand that people do want to romance the character they are interested in regardless of their character's gender, but it doesn't work that way. If I had the power, everybody I was interested in would be interested in me too. However, the reality is that most people are straight, I accept that fact and move on, that's just how it is.

I'm pretty pleased that they have finally decided to have representation of gay romances in this game, but it made me think whether it was something the writers wanted to do, or if it was something that they were forced to include due to the backlash of having none in the previous titles. If it were the latter, doesn't it seem sad that the writers are unable to tell the story as they intended? It sure feels like a hollow victory if that were the case. In the same line of thinking, if the constant outcry for making X character bisexual succeeds, where is the voice of the writers if fans can just drown them out?

You are reading too much into that. Games are just for having fun and relax every now and then, I don't enjoy limitations of reality when I'm trying to disconnect with it for a while.

But supposing we all wanted to have that king of limited game experience, why stop with sexuality? (which is discriminating), lets add morals, looks and even social class and race/species.
If writers neglect those things in order to give one gender a LI, they aren't telling the story they wanted as well, 'coz those things define characters more than whether or not the person they are romancing has a penis. But if we keep on like this, we should rather watch a movie. That way all character's and the story's integrity would be always intact, not only in your experience but in everyone's (which also seems to be a concern for some). 
And what about m!shep having all the women and "not exactly women" of the galaxy throwing themselves at his throat? Last time I checked, IRL, it was women the ones who have to stop advences from men not the other way around.

If you wanna ask for a realistic experience you are welcome to do it, but do it consistently.
Restricting LI's to o/s (or s/s for that matter) is not real, it's giving privileges to one customers over others (you being the latter) while they keep paying the same amount of money for the product.

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

The VS isn't bi anyway.

We all know how much you hope Kaidan won't be available but I would advise you to hold on with this kind of definite proclamations 'cause you may have a big, splashed egg all over your face come March

Modifié par IsaacShep, 09 janvier 2012 - 02:14 .

[Ryzaki]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The VS isn't bi anyway.

We all know how much you hope Kaidan won't be available but I would advise you to hold on with this kind of definite proclamations 'cause you may have a big, splashed egg all over your face come March

You might want to look in the spoiler thread. He's not bi.

[Chris Readman]

@Ryzaki
Those are all flaws in writing as well, and they do not justify the magical bisexuality. Just because a certain problem was allowed to exist doesn't mean that everything is allowed to follow that path of poor writing.

Instead of asking for universal bisexuality, we should be asking for the scenarios you've pointed out to be avoided in the future. Aren't those problems worth the time instead of having a generic gender neutral romance?

@ElitePinecone
I guess you can take that point of view... But to me it feels like the writers are becoming almost irrelevant at this point if all they do is listen to fans. Don't get me wrong, fan feedback is important, but a line must be drawn somewhere.

I support the inclusion of bisexual characters, hell, I'm hoping that Vega is an option. But I feel like it needs a little explaining if established characters like Kaidan or Ashley were suddenly available. In DAII, Isabella and Anders were believable bisexual options because it was in their character (although it is a little iffy for Anders because of his established character in Awakening, but I won't get into that now). On the other hand, Merrill and Fenris never displayed any interest in people of the same sex, at least not to my knowledge. It was like they were bisexual, just because. It was very... jarring... like it came out of nowhere.

I kind of hope they avoid it this time, since Kaidan and Ashley already had so many opportunities to express their interest in Shepard, but chose not to for some reason. It's going to take more than "oh by the way, I like guys/girls as well" to transition them into this newly discovered bisexuality.

@bas_kon
Yes, games are for having fun, but it's the limitations that help that. Games are about players navigating through sets of rules that are imposed by the developers in order to accomplish things. When it comes to RPGs, I believe that consistency in stories is pretty important, considering that the story is a huge point in such a genre. There is enjoyment to be had in having a degree of freedom, but the developers have to discover the proper balance between reality and fantasy without stepping to far into realism or absurdity. Turn the situation around, how would you feel if we could transform Jack, someone who is established as a biotic and a killer, into whimpering teenage passivist who is somehow a master swordswoman just because we wanted to?

Let's face it, the representation of same sex relationship is already quite forward thinking for this period in time. But it seems like people are never satisfied and they just keep asking for more.

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...
You might want to look in the spoiler thread. He's not bi.

You may want to remember the fact that his actual dialogues ARE gender neutral, especially in comparsion with Garrus and Kaidan's own dialogues from ME1 and that the lines with dev notes in curly brackets means they're the oldest ones. Bit of knowledge how BioWare deals with their files never hurts, in fact it helps alot. Again, you really should hold on with your celebrations till March 'cause you're gonna look extra mad if it turns out not the way you wanted. And check the spoilers group in 15 minutes, there's gonna be a surprise for you

[ElitePinecone]

I just like that they felt the need to include the word 'smouldering' in the VO notes for that line.

[Cathey]

I was talking to my friend recently, discussing Kelly in ME2 and wondering about ME3.

Right. Does Kelly count as a romance in ME2? Because I don't recall Liara mentioning it in LotSB like she does with Garrus for example.

So basically if you did the whole Kelly thing in ME2 whilst romancing Liara and imported that character into ME3 - would that count as having cheated on Liara even if you then don't flirt with Kelly in ME3? Or don't we know yet?

Bah I hope the story creator for ME3 (the equivalent of the comic they did for the ps3 ME2) is a good one and covers all possible romances. Some of my Shepards i'd rather just use the story creator for rather than having to run them through both games ready for ME3. I've already got a few i'm currently working on for imports.

[syllogi]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You might want to look in the spoiler thread. He's not bi.

You may want to remember the fact that his actual dialogues ARE gender neutral, especially in comparsion with Garrus and Kaidan's own dialogues from ME1 and that the lines with dev notes in curly brackets means they're the oldest ones. Bit of knowledge how BioWare deals with their files never hurts, in fact it helps alot. Again, you really should hold on with your celebrations till March 'cause you're gonna look extra mad if it turns out not the way you wanted. And check the spoilers group in 15 minutes, there's gonna be a surprise for you

Yep, stage directions for the cinematics people can easily be adapted (I think they can figure out where "she" means "he"), and nothing in the actual dialogue is gender specific.

[ElitePinecone]

Cathey wrote...

I was talking to my friend recently, discussing Kelly in ME2 and wondering about ME3.

Right. Does Kelly count as a romance in ME2? Because I don't recall Liara mentioning it in LotSB like she does with Garrus for example.

So basically if you did the whole Kelly thing in ME2 whilst romancing Liara and imported that character into ME3 - would that count as having cheated on Liara even if you then don't flirt with Kelly in ME3? Or don't we know yet?

Bah I hope the story creator for ME3 (the equivalent of the comic they did for the ps3 ME2) is a good one and covers all possible romances. Some of my Shepards i'd rather just use the story creator for rather than having to run them through both games ready for ME3. I've already got a few i'm currently working on for imports.

As far as I know, Kelly's romance is recorded in the game files (even if it isn't a Paramour achievement) so there's a chance it'll be reflected in dialogue with other characters. Perhaps someone could check the leaked script, since I don't have it on me. 

Kelly's romance is given much greater priority in ME3, though, to the extent that you can pursue her as a full LI (even if she's elsewhere). 

We don't know much about the story creator, except that it probably won't be a comic. It's possible that it's part of the trial scene before the proper intro of the game, in which case I don't think they'd go into huge detail. A lot is yet to be found out about the character creator, etc. 

[bas_kon]

Chris Readman wrote...

Turn the situation around, how would you feel if we could transform Jack, someone who is established as a biotic and a killer, into whimpering teenage passivist who is somehow a master swordswoman just because we wanted to?

Let's face it, the representation of same sex relationship is already quite forward thinking for this period in time. But it seems like people are never satisfied and they just keep asking for more.

They did it with Miranda and Tali in ME2, two independent women turned into teens in heat, just to please the straight male crowd and they've done it again with Ashley in ME3. Lucky me she's buried in all my playthroughs to import.
I enjoy limitations, such as enemy difficulty and puzzles, but not the ones imposed on me because my character was born a certain way.
Sexuality is not such an important trait anyway, even irl, coz the person you sleep with doesn't and shoudn't make you any different than any another person. It's society what tells you that, and it's wrong.

It's not about representation it's just about having a good time, and having my money well spent.
I have to admit, though, that I find an m/m romance stories more powerfull than o/s and f/f, when it comes to the media. Maybe because the latters are everwhere, from porn to comertials, movies and tv shows. But m/m relationships between not effeminate stereotyped men with no homofofia drama going on are almost nonexistent.

I think you've been brainwashed or someting, since you talk about gay people, your people, as if they were something different. But what they get is also what you'll get unless you rather role play female, in that case just be and let others be.

[jlb524]

Chris Readman wrote...
Instead of asking for universal bisexuality, we should be asking for the scenarios you've pointed out to be avoided in the future. Aren't those problems worth the time instead of having a generic gender neutral romance?

Yes...no one's really asking for that.

But if we don't ever get that (it seems most are happy with the system the way it is anyway so they can romance Tali with their Renegade if they wish), then how can you justify the only limits being gender?

[pizu]

Hello, everyone, I'm back. I see a lot of new posts and I'd like to say that I'm really happy to see that so many people took an interest in my argument and it pleases me to see that so many of you took some of your free time to reply. It's nice to see so many different opinions as well. Like I expected - some people agree with me, others say that I'm wrong, but that's how things work. I love it when someone approves of my thought, but I also appreciate it when someone writes a good and correct argumentation and explains his point of view in a civilized manner. I may be wrong, it could be that I don't see the good parts of universal bisexuality, but that's one of the reasons why I came her in the first place. I want to see your point of view and confront it with mine.

That was, in fact, my original intent. I wanted to create a discussion and such discussion is happening right now. Isn't that great? I know that I'm not a developer, I'm not from the staff either. I'm a mere member just like you and I don't have the power to change much, but I have the possibility and I'm willing to talk.

It saddens me to see that some people misunderstood what I wrote, though. I am by no means an anti homosexual person. I'm not a close minded guy at all. I've done my studies and I've read my books. I'm not here to complain about the homosexual characters in the Mass Effect universe.

I won't complain if the writers decide to put some more bisexual or homosexual characters into the game. I won't. If they make good characters, I will appreciate them. Sexuality doesn't even matter that much... but if they make every single one of them a bisexual character, even the existing ones, then I would have much to say on the subject.

Modifié par pizu, 09 janvier 2012 - 03:40 .

[jlb524]

pizu wrote...
I won't complain if the writers decide to put some more bisexual or homosexual characters into the game. I won't. If they make good characters, I will appreciate them. Sexuality doesn't even matter that much... but if they make every single one of them a bisexual character, even the existing ones, then I would have much to say on the subject.

Well, hopefully in the future they won't make every female LI interested in the male PC no matter what....practically clawing at his clothes to get him into bed (cuz that's totally realistic)...that ruins character integrity the most, IMO.

Modifié par jlb524, 09 janvier 2012 - 03:44 .

[bas_kon]

pizu wrote...

Hello, everyone, ....

I won't complain if the writers decide to put some more bisexual or homosexual characters into the game. I won't. If they make good characters, I will appreciate them. Sexuality doesn't even matter that much... but if they make every single one of them a bisexual character, even the existing ones, then I would have much to say on the subject.

If you are talking about my post, I apologize if I missunderstood you, English is not my first language and I thought the tone of your words was different.
I sometimes get a little tired, though, when some people keep asking why we want what we want, but they don't really care to read it, they just want us to know they don't agree with us as if their opinion was that important to us. It's like talking to a wall.
If you are willing to listen what others have to say and not your own words (I take it, you did because of your quotes), then I'm all for a debate.

PS: For the record, I'm not asking for universal bisexuality, just two or three s/s (Kaidan if possible) per gender among a whole straight and "technically straight" galaxy population and the 12 straight LI's that are already in the game in some degree.

Modifié par bas_kon, 09 janvier 2012 - 04:00 .

[pizu]

jlb524 wrote...


Well, hopefully in the future they won't make every female LI interested in the male PC no matter what....practically clawing at his clothes to get him into bed (cuz that's totally realistic)...that ruins character integrity the most, IMO.

Shepard is the sexiest.

[shepskisaac]

pizu wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


Well, hopefully in the future they won't make every female LI interested in the male PC no matter what....practically clawing at his clothes to get him into bed (cuz that's totally realistic)...that ruins character integrity the most, IMO.

Shepard is the sexiest.

yeah