25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Chris Readman]

bas_kon wrote...
They did it with Miranda and Tali in ME2, two independent women turned into teens in heat, just to please the straight male crowd and they've done it again with Ashley in ME3. Lucky me she's buried in all my playthroughs to import.
I enjoy limitations, such as enemy difficulty and puzzles, but not the ones imposed on me because my character was born a certain way.
Sexuality is not such an important trait anyway, even irl, coz the person you sleep with doesn't and shoudn't make you any different than any another person. It's society what tells you that, and it's wrong.

It's not about representation it's just about having a good time, and having my money well spent.
I have to admit, though, that I find an m/m romance stories more powerfull than o/s and f/f, when it comes to the media. Maybe because the latters are everwhere, from porn to comertials, movies and tv shows. But m/m relationships between not effeminate stereotyped men with no homofofia drama going on are almost nonexistent.

I think you've been brainwashed or someting, since you talk about gay people, your people, as if they were something different. But what they get is also what you'll get unless you rather role play female, in that case just be and let others be.

I'm sorry, but I disagree; sexuality is a big deal in real life, that's why it's such a hot topic. It's rather pointless then isn't it, to have the same romance shared between genders. The simple truth is that men are different from women, even if such a distinction that is culturally imposed and artificial, we cannot deny that the difference is present.

So what is the point of having a romance that is essentially genderless? If the love interest were to treat me the same regardless of what gender my Shepard is, why don't I play as a woman instead?

It may seem like I am content with being satisfied with the status quo, but that is far from the truth. I want so much more, I want a gay relationship to be actually mean something, instead of being fed some diluted porridge. You say that you find m/m stories more powerful, but it's not really a m/m relationship if it's just the f/m relationship fed through a gender neutral dialogue, is it?

I want the characters to acknowledge the difference and actually do something about it. In Jade Empire, they did something to that effect with Sky. But again, they established that that was in his character, somewhat weakly, but they tried.

I want so much, but I know that it is not easy for such a thing to be done, since it's probably going to be too resource intensive to do this with every single s/s option, especially considering that the old characters already have set personalities. So instead, I'm being realistic and hoping that they focus their efforts elsewhere instead of providing some form of mild satiation to the desire in having characters becoming "bisexual".

Side note: I was irked somewhat by Tali's change in attitude when it came to her romance initiation, but when I think back, I see that there are slight damsel in distress traits in her. Also, Miranda's character design was so indicative of her role as a love interest that it was hardly surprising.

Side side note: I abandoned Ashley too, sorry Ashley! Kaidan was just more important to me.

[pizu]

IsaacShep wrote...

pizu wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


Well, hopefully in the future they won't make every female LI interested in the male PC no matter what....practically clawing at his clothes to get him into bed (cuz that's totally realistic)...that ruins character integrity the most, IMO.

Shepard is the sexiest.

yeah

That's beautiful.

Modifié par pizu, 09 janvier 2012 - 04:18 .

[pizu]

Chris Readman wrote...


It may seem like I am content with being satisfied with the status quo, but that is far from the truth. I want so much more, I want a gay relationship to be actually mean something, instead of being fed some diluted porridge. You say that you find m/m stories more powerful, but it's not really a m/m relationship if it's just the f/m relationship fed through a gender neutral dialogue, is it?

That's exactly my point.

[bas_kon]

@Chris Readman: About sexuality irl, perhaps it depends on which country you grew up and the people around you. Here, I've never seen anyone make much of a deal about it.

Concerning gender and relationships, I've been in a relationship with a man for four years, and now I'm married  to a woman, so I can tell gender doesn't make much of a difference in a relationship. I respect that it makes it to you, though.
I don't get what's the difference between m/f and m/m, though, except that imo, gay men are more courageous than straight guys, since they have to face homofobia and/or even violence depending on where they live, just to be able to love. But I don't want homofobia drama in the game, because the plot is about the reapers. I just wanna forget about christians and their god for once, and have a nice but compelling romance subplot. And bi Kaidan would do great imo.

Gotta go to work so I won't be answering for a while.

PS: If Steve became bi, it wouldn't be o/s turned into s/s, but the other way around.

Modifié par bas_kon, 09 janvier 2012 - 05:01 .

[syllogi]

pizu wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...


It may seem like I am content with being satisfied with the status quo, but that is far from the truth. I want so much more, I want a gay relationship to be actually mean something, instead of being fed some diluted porridge. You say that you find m/m stories more powerful, but it's not really a m/m relationship if it's just the f/m relationship fed through a gender neutral dialogue, is it?

That's exactly my point.

Why does it have to be gender neutral?  There are different lines for an Anders m/m or m/f romance in DA2, for example, so if they did something like that, wouldn't it actually add depth and replayability, for those who want to see both types of romances with the same character?

And if both same sex and opposite sex players enjoy the romance as it appears in game, even *if* the majority of lines are gender neutral, is it really diluted?

[1136342t54_]

bas_kon wrote...

@Chris Readman: About sexuality irl, perhaps it depends on which country you grew up and the people around you. Here, I've never seen anyone make much of a deal about it.

This. Hell I'm an American and its quite obvious that this issue is just made so freaking debated due to idiots. It really shouldn't be that highly discussed. A sane rational person who would dislike homosexuals for some reason would still allow them to marry since it isn't destroying the freaking country in anyway. There are no sane rational people in this country.

[LukaCrosszeria]

Ryzaki wrote...

Everytime I hear character intergrity being threatend by all bi romances I laugh.

Yes character intergrity was at the forefront when Alistair married (out of love) my Warden who purged the elves and killed Conner while telling him to shut up and fall in line, character intergrity was at the  forefront when my Warden took the gold from the Tevinter slavers and had the dalish elves slaughtered by the werewolves and Zevran still romanced him. Character intergrity was also very important when my Warden poisoned the ashes and still romanced Leliana. (hardened Leliana but I assumed that "I'll never forgive you for this!" wouldn't lead to a mere 10 disapproval points that I could easily make up by giving her one of those Andraste symbols she likes). Character intergrity is also very important when my Warden told Morrigan he believed in her survival of the fittest philosphy but in reality he helped everyone he came across. She never called him out on his hypocrisy either. That's real character intergrity right there!

Sorry if I don't take that nonsense that never existed in the first place in regards to romances in the first place as a serious reason for restricting choices for others.

Frankly if character intergrity was at all important I do wonder why Ash romances my Shep who punches women in the face or why Tali is swooning all over my renedouche. (or hell why anyone likes renedouche).

Why no cries for Ash dumping Shep for her character intergrity then? Apparently my Shep can bite her head off (in regards to everything except that out of line williams) by calling her incompetent and insulting her religion and she still wants to claw off his pants. That's character intergrity? If so that kind of character intergrity is worthless. Her preferences apparently do matter much if my male Shep wants to romance her not seeing why my Shep being a different gender all of a sudden crosses some imaginary line.

At least in DA2 they reacted to my Hawke being the kind of person who would agitate them. That alone made it head and shoulders above ME. As for vechiles for the player's desire sadly no my player wiles didn't make Merrill give up bloodmagic (she had to lose her whole clan for that to happen) nor did they make Anders give up the fight for mages, nor Fenris lose his mistrust of most mages. Alas! They were only vechiles for my desire in the way of romancing them! Nothing else I'm afraid. A shame because being able to stop Anders from doing a certain act 3 action with the power of my protagonist would've been appreciated!

Meanwhile Ash and Kaidan can be turned almost opposite alignments from what they started as due to Shep romancing them obviously a ...three four month relationship? Is clearly enough cause a grown man/woman to change his/her outlook on aliens because Shep's gentila are just that great (can't even be Shep because friendship Shep can't change their alignment.) They will have a relationship with a renedouche who punches women in the face, kills people for sheer amusement (look at Kaidan's face when Shep decides to open up the gate and kill the mindless salarians) and so on and this is obviously more true to their characters then the DA2 LIs all romancing Hawke no matter his/her gender and making references to his/her gender as well as acknowledging if his/her outlook (based off friend/rivalry) match their own.

Clearly.

Well said, my friend, well said. I agree with all of this, good post. :happy: Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 09 janvier 2012 - 06:47 .

[Ryzaki]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You might want to look in the spoiler thread. He's not bi.

You may want to remember the fact that his actual dialogues ARE gender neutral, especially in comparsion with Garrus and Kaidan's own dialogues from ME1 and that the lines with dev notes in curly brackets means they're the oldest ones. Bit of knowledge how BioWare deals with their files never hurts, in fact it helps alot. Again, you really should hold on with your celebrations till March 'cause you're gonna look extra mad if it turns out not the way you wanted. And check the spoilers group in 15 minutes, there's gonna be a surprise for you

Wrong. Liara's files specified that it was male AND female Shep from ME1. Try again.

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wrong. Liara's files specified that it was male AND female Shep from ME1. Try again.

And guess what was probably developed first lol. Try again. And don't forget about the surprise

[Unbannable]

bas_kon wrote...

And what about m!shep having all the women and "not exactly women" of the galaxy throwing themselves at his throat? Last time I checked, IRL, it was women the ones who have to stop advences from men not the other way around.

bas_kon wrote...

They did it with Miranda and Tali in ME2, two independent women turned into teens in heat, just to please the straight male crowd and they've done it again with Ashley in ME3

lb524 wrote...

Well, hopefully in the future they won't make every female LI interested in the male PC no matter what....practically clawing at his clothes to get him into bed (cuz that's totally realistic)...that ruins character integrity the most, IMO.

LOL, these arguements are ridiculous.  The both of you must be some unattractive looking people, because only unattractive looking people would make such silly comments.

Saying it's unrealistic or immersion breaking for multiple women to be interested in Shepard is asinine, because Shepard is scripted (written and coded) as being a very attractive and capable man, with an alpha male personality.

In real life, women relentlessly throw themselves at that type of man......especially if he is very famous and reknowned, like Shepard..  Therefore having multiple women be interested in Shepard isn't unrealistic at all..

Tali is perhaps Shepard's only unrealistic LI, for obvious reasons.

[Ryzaki]

@Chris: until that day comes when BW fixes those issues I listed the character integrity peeps (especially since all is well until the romances are expanded to all bi) to me have no argument. Plenty more things severely damage character integrity that they're content to ignore and it makes me feel their arguments don't really mean anything.

@Issac: Uh...no. Pretty sure MShep/Liara/FemShep were all developed around the same time considering their dialogue IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME SAVE 2 LINES.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 janvier 2012 - 07:39 .

[MACharlie1]

Unbannable wrote...
In real life, women relentlessly throw themselves at that type of man......especially if he is very famous and reknowned, like Shepard..  Therefore having multiple women be interested in Shepard isn't unrealistic at all..

Tali is perhaps Shepard's only unrealistic LI, for obvious reasons.

In real life, women also belong in the kitchen. <_<

(and I'm a guy who loves to make kitchen/women jokes) 

[Ryzaki]

In real life professional, well respected and influential women do not tend to throw themselves all at the same man.

Least not from what I've seen.

[Unbannable]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Chris: until that day comes when BW fixes those issues I listed the character integrity peeps (especially since all is well until the romances are expanded to all bi) to me have no argument. Plenty more things severely damage character integrity that they're content to ignore and it makes me feel their arguments don't really mean anything.

The thing is, sexuality attracts a lot more attention than those quirks which you outlined, most of which come down to poor writing and incomplete characterization.  Sexuality by it's very nature is highly combustible, which is why this issue is often discussed on the forums.

So pointing out other integrity flaws in the characters or story, doesn't really do much to detract from the sexuality issue.

[Ryzaki]

Unbannable wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Chris: until that day comes when BW fixes those issues I listed the character integrity peeps (especially since all is well until the romances are expanded to all bi) to me have no argument. Plenty more things severely damage character integrity that they're content to ignore and it makes me feel their arguments don't really mean anything.

The thing is, sexuality attracts a lot more attention than those quirks which you outlined, most of which come down to poor writing and incomplete characterization.  Sexuality by it's very nature is highly combustible, which is why this issue is often discussed on the forums.

So pointing out other integrity flaws in the characters or story, doesn't really do much to detract from the sexuality issue.

So they don't really care about character intergrity then. It only matters when it has to do with sexuality then? 

Because if you say "well I only care about Y when X happens." you really don't care about Y. You care about X.

[AngelicMachinery]

IsaacShep wrote...

pizu wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


Well, hopefully in the future they won't make every female LI interested in the male PC no matter what....practically clawing at his clothes to get him into bed (cuz that's totally realistic)...that ruins character integrity the most, IMO.

Shepard is the sexiest.

yeah

He's glorious!

[Unbannable]

Ryzaki wrote...

In real life professional, well respected and influential women do not tend to throw themselves all at the same man.

Least not from what I've seen.

You mean women like that female Astronaut Lisa Nowak who tried to kidnap (and was possibly planning to murder) a female rival over the affections of a male astronaut? 

Yeah that never happens.

Anyway, what does professionalism, influence etc have to do with being attracted to the opposite sex? 

You're making this a lot more complex than it really is.  If you find someone attractive, then you do.  No amount of professionalism, respect or influence can change that.

Although those factors could impact on whether you choose to act on those feelings or not.

Modifié par Unbannable, 09 janvier 2012 - 08:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Unbannable wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

In real life professional, well respected and influential women do not tend to throw themselves all at the same man.

Least not from what I've seen.

You mean women like that female Astronaut Lisa Nowak who tried to kidnap (and was possibly planning to murder) a female rival over the affections of a male astronaut? 

Yeah that never happens.

Anyway, what does professionalism, influence etc have to do with being attracted to the opposite sex? 

You're making this a lot more complex than it really is.  If you find someone attractive, then you do.  No amount of professionalism, respect or influence can change that.

Although those factors could impact on whether you choose to act on those feelings or not.

Do the words do not tend pass your eyes or what?

Do not tend = is not common.

That link you posted? Is not common. And I do not see anyone in ME doing suc a thing.

...I could say the same about you and gender you realize yes? 

[Unbannable]

Ryzaki wrote...

So they don't really care about character intergrity then. It only matters when it has to do with sexuality then? 

Because if you say "well I only care about Y when X happens." you really don't care about Y. You care about X.

It's not so much that the other integrity issues don't matter.  It's just that people tend to notice sexuality integrity issues a helluva lot more.

Like I said, sexuality is, and has always been a highly combustible issue since day one.  Contrary to what bas_kon says, sexuality is a very important, and controversial aspect of our lives.

[shepskisaac]

Unbannable wrote...

So pointing out other integrity flaws in the characters or story, doesn't really do much to detract from the sexuality issue.

But these flaws are MUCH more important. We're talking Mass Effect, a game about morals, how people react to Shep's actions etc. Sexual orientation is not the subject of the story.

[Ryzaki]

Unbannable wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So they don't really care about character intergrity then. It only matters when it has to do with sexuality then? 

Because if you say "well I only care about Y when X happens." you really don't care about Y. You care about X.

It's not so much that the other integrity issues don't matter.  It's just that people tend to notice sexuality integrity issues a helluva lot more.

Like I said, sexuality is, and has always been a highly combustible issue since day one.  Contrary to what bas_kon says, sexuality is a very important, and controversial aspect of our lives.

So sexuality is more important then morality now? Because I'm seeing morality and personality intergrity issues in almost all BW games.

[Unbannable]

Ryzaki wrote...

Do the words do not tend pass your eyes or what?

Do not tend = is not common.

That link you posted? Is not common. And I do not see anyone in ME doing suc a thing.

That particular circumstance was rare I admit, but it's not uncommon to see women in influential or powerful positions subvert themselves because of an attraction to, or fling with a man.

Female teachers have been getting a lot of press lately for their infractions with male students for example.  And in the Military where the gender ratios are severely lopsided, you see it as well.

...I could say the same about you and gender you realize yes? 

Well undoubtedly men do the same thing of course.  But women aren't excused from that sort of behaviour just because they are women, thats what I was getting at.

People in general have done crazy things in the name of sexual attraction.

Modifié par Unbannable, 09 janvier 2012 - 08:25 .

[1136342t54_]

Unbannable wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So they don't really care about character intergrity then. It only matters when it has to do with sexuality then? 

Because if you say "well I only care about Y when X happens." you really don't care about Y. You care about X.

It's not so much that the other integrity issues don't matter.  It's just that people tend to notice sexuality integrity issues a helluva lot more.

Like I said, sexuality is, and has always been a highly combustible issue since day one.  Contrary to what bas_kon says, sexuality is a very important, and controversial aspect of our lives.

Depends in which country. We Americans for some reason deem showing nudity being much worse than showing someone getting blown to bits and pieces.

[Ryzaki]

So it's not uncommon to see influential women all go after the same man and be young successful and single?

Female teachers aren't personally what I'd consider influential. No offense to any teachers. A principal yeah...a normal teacher...no.

And them being sexually attracted to someone of the same gender means they can't be crazy anymore?

[Destroy Raiden_]

Chris Readman wrote...

Jumping into this thread for the first time to give my two cents regarding the "all bi" thing. I kind of agree with pizu on this. And before anyone says that I'm just another straight person trying to spread anti-gay propaganda, I must clarify that I'm pretty sure that I'm gay.

To have all love interests suddenly turn bisexual is just... strange. I don't know if it takes away from their character, but it does show that the writers are unable to just tell the story that they wanted to tell. It really seems like fans are undermining the integrity of the writers just so that they can romance their love interest the way they want to.

I understand that people do want to romance the character they are interested in regardless of their character's gender, but it doesn't work that way. If I had the power, everybody I was interested in would be interested in me too. However, the reality is that most people are straight, I accept that fact and move on, that's just how it is.

I'm pretty pleased that they have finally decided to have representation of gay romances in this game, but it made me think whether it was something the writers wanted to do, or if it was something that they were forced to include due to the backlash of having none in the previous titles. If it were the latter, doesn't it seem sad that the writers are unable to tell the story as they intended? It sure feels like a hollow victory if that were the case. In the same line of thinking, if the constant outcry for making X character bisexual succeeds, where is the voice of the writers if fans can just drown them out?

I agree with this. It's far better that they make brandnew people like Vega the s/s options and not say make Thane into one (even though playing him w/mshep I sure got that vibe he at end game was not so shouldn't be in 3). Also moving forward its more then likely BW will start off the next ME title with bi main character and bi LIs and no one will care because its the 1st new BW game.

I think BW for ME Shep's story were trying to for once move away from the bi main lead when they wrote mshep as straight they kept fshep bi to a degree for past players but they've found out they now can't ever go in a new direction with their main characters and must now make them bi from the start as well get more then 1 bi option in there. BW has already gotten an option of main character representation cut off by the fans and will more then likely get more do/don't rules applied to them by their fans as the years go on from now on.