25715 réponses à ce sujet

[SolidBeast]

I'm going to do another manShep playthrough and sparing Kaidan because the cut dialogue from ME makes me hopeful for a Kaidan s/s romance (it just fits), but Vega still seems more likely (not that I'm complaining!). After two games and a bunch of f/f action going on, I think we deserve more than one option.

I know the devs mentioned that there will be NPC romances, but I don't remember them saying that there will be a s/s option with a squadmate (I'm assuming Cortez doesn't count as one).

Also, one more question (sorry, been a bit out of the loop): Was that whole "Shep walking in on gay action" thing made up?

EDIT: @C-Sec - Preitor Gavorn, please! We even got a hint of that in LOTSB.

Modifié par SolidBeast, 11 janvier 2012 - 02:22 .

[MACharlie1]

SolidBeast wrote...

I'm going to do another manShep playthrough and sparing Kaidan because the cut dialogue from ME makes me hopeful for a Kaidan s/s romance (it just fits), but Vega still seems more likely (not that I'm complaining!). After two games and a bunch of f/f action going on, I think we deserve more than one option.

I know the devs mentioned that there will be NPC romances, but I don't remember them saying that there will be a s/s option with a squadmate (I'm assuming Cortez doesn't count as one).

Also, one more question (sorry, been a bit out of the loop): Was that whole "Shep walking in on gay action" thing made up?

EDIT: @C-Sec - Preitor Gavorn, please! We even got a hint of that in LOTSB.

I just mentioned this in the group but...

Cortez = man in Gavorn's quarters in LotSB? 

[C-Sec Nova]

SolidBeast wrote...

EDIT: @C-Sec - Preitor Gavorn, please! We even got a hint of that in LOTSB.

If it ain't Garrus, give me Lorik Qui'in, if it aint Lorik Qui'in, give me any of the alien coucilors, if it aint the councilors, give me Gavorn, if it aint Gavorn, give me Wrex or Grunt, if it aint them, give me Legion, if it aint Legion give me Captain Kirhee, if it aint Captain Kirhee, give me Aria or Shialla... if none of them are available... ill be let down... (In reference to possible LI with M'Shep)

[Quething]

ElitePinecone wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

Anyone else think we might get just one m/m LI - the Cortez guy?

It's definitely a possibility. Bioware do seem to be loading his character arc with incessant references to his sexuality, as if to make absolutely sure everyone playing the game knows he's the 'gay character'. 

The other male LIs have much more subtle dialogue, which mght suggest they aren't m/m at all. 

Still a bit early to tell, though, there's at least two characters whose current status is ambiguous. 

I'd be reasonably satisfied (though still slightly disappointed) even with one character. One is better than none, after all.

I don't know. BioWare has a strong history of emphasizing gender in any relationship where it's possible. Carth can't stop calling you "beautiful" every ten seconds, Ashley calls you "a man with a great ass," Alistair reminds you you're a woman every three sentences just in case you forgot. That does suggest Cortez is exclusive, but it also suggests any squadmate with gender neutral dialog isn't.

[bleetman]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Because the writers have no clue what they were talking about.  They gave the quarians all the symptons of having a hypersensitive immune system and then said they had a weak immune system and keep on adding randoms "facts" for each side.  It seems as if the writers got a physicist to consult on the all the physical science to make it seem like it was a sci-fi based in hard science but didn't ask a biochemist about anything and as a result got everything completely wrong pertaining to it (I'm an also looking at that horribly wrong chirality info).

Whilst I can't really argue with that due to knowing squat about human physiology, can it not just be sort of justified on the basis that Quarians have an entirely different biological makeup to humans right down to their DNA and that, as a result, human standards of how things work probably won't apply?

On another note, uh. How about them s/s romances, huh? They sure are great.

/is totally on topic

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Quething wrote...

I don't know. BioWare has a strong history of emphasizing gender in any relationship where it's possible. Carth can't stop calling you "beautiful" every ten seconds, Ashley calls you "a man with a great ass," Alistair reminds you you're a woman every three sentences just in case you forgot. That does suggest Cortez is exclusive, but it also suggests any squadmate with gender neutral dialog isn't.

Well..all of the previous m/m LIs at least mentioned something about the fact that you were both men in their script.  Even Fenris has one or two lines.  Kaidan and Vega don't.  Not to say it's solid proof, but it's a bit jarring.  Vega also talks about finding girls hot and stares at the butt of one of your female squad members.

C-Sec Nova wrote...
In all honesty, I will not be satisfied
unless there is an alien M/M relationship (Turian preferred) I will be
highly let down if there isnt one...

Um, prepare to be let down then.

Modifié par Red by Full Metal Jacket, 11 janvier 2012 - 05:06 .

[MACharlie1]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Quething wrote...

I don't know. BioWare has a strong history of emphasizing gender in any relationship where it's possible. Carth can't stop calling you "beautiful" every ten seconds, Ashley calls you "a man with a great ass," Alistair reminds you you're a woman every three sentences just in case you forgot. That does suggest Cortez is exclusive, but it also suggests any squadmate with gender neutral dialog isn't.

Well..all of the previous m/m LIs at least mentioned something about the fact that you were both men in their script.  Even Fenris has one or two lines.  Kaidan and Vega don't.  Not to say it's solid proof, but it's a bit jarring.  Vega also talks about finding girls hot and stares at the butt of one of your female squad members.

C-Sec Nova wrote...
In all honesty, I will not be satisfied
unless there is an alien M/M relationship (Turian preferred) I will be
highly let down if there isnt one...

Um, prepare to be let down then.

Dragon Age has different writers then Mass Effect. And in this genre of gaming, with shooting in space, writers probably feel the need to emphasize more on their masculinity to make them likeable while downplaying any potential "unmasculine" traits. Dragon Age has a different type of fan - it's fantasy with swords and magic - fans of which are probably more open to this freeness of sexuality. Sci-fi fans - not as much. 

So even if Vega and/or Kaidan end up being available to the male player, they aren't going to be the pretty, brooding, "Edward-Twilight" type. They are going to be "men". Espcailly since Vega is new, they have to make him work and likeable to the shooter crowd...which we know doesn't paticuliarly care for teh gays. 

[Ryzaki]

Eh *points at ME2 romances*

Mostly gender neutral. All straight. (Miranda is very gender neutral from what I remember in her romance...Tali I think only has that "how could she not fall in love with him?" comment dealing with Shep's gender [but I might've missed something], Thane is pretty gender specific with the Siha thing, not sure/don't care about Jacob, Garrus...I'm pretty sure Garrus is pretty or completely gender neutral, not sure about Jack either.)

At this point me being pessimistic is erring on the side of Vega being straight so I don't have to be crushed if he isn't and I can be happily surprised if he is.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 janvier 2012 - 05:33 .

[ElitePinecone]

SolidBeast wrote...

I'm going to do another manShep playthrough and sparing Kaidan because the cut dialogue from ME makes me hopeful for a Kaidan s/s romance (it just fits), but Vega still seems more likely (not that I'm complaining!). After two games and a bunch of f/f action going on, I think we deserve more than one option.

I know the devs mentioned that there will be NPC romances, but I don't remember them saying that there will be a s/s option with a squadmate (I'm assuming Cortez doesn't count as one).

Also, one more question (sorry, been a bit out of the loop): Was that whole "Shep walking in on gay action" thing made up?

EDIT: @C-Sec - Preitor Gavorn, please! We even got a hint of that in LOTSB.

I wouldn't ever use words like 'deserve', personally, because Bioware doesn't necessarily owe us m/m romances and I'm wary of anything that looks like entitlement on the part of fans. 

That said, would it be nice if we had more than one option? Definitely. Should Bioware invest in it? I think so. But I won't be horriblty let down if they don't. 

Up until six months or so ago, there were (as far as we know) no s/s romances planned for ME3 at all. Cortez and Traynor were added after the decision to delay the game's launch. 

Devs haven't given any info on s/s romances with anybody, let alone narrowing it down to 'squad' or 'crew'. We only know about Steve and Samantha (S/S, geddit) because of a file leak.  

"Was that whole "Shep walking in on gay action" thing made up?"

Yes. Someone created a fake forum post by a Bioware writer (who doesn't even work on Mass Effect) because they were dissatisfied with her work in DA2. They included fake quotes from this writer about having Shepard forcibly become gay, engage in an s/s romance and walk in on someone else. 

Unfortunately more people than I thought possible have believed that crap. It was all done to smear a writer and is 100% false. 

[Ryzaki]

I still can't believe people believed that.

They didn't even have enough brainpower to research and see she didn't even work on the ME games. Idiots.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 janvier 2012 - 05:36 .

[ElitePinecone]

Ryzaki wrote...

I still can't believe people believed that.

They didn't even have enough brainpower to research and see she didn't even work on the ME games. Idiots.

It even got media coverage. Yay for stupid people! 
http://digitalhippos...o-mass-effect-3 

I'm more upset though that it was done purely to attack her by stirring up ME3 fans, because she said a line in an interview five years ago that she preferred story to gameplay. 

The fact that people are still repeating them seven months later is proof that once someone makes something up, it's hard to shake. 

[MACharlie1]

Ryzaki wrote...

I still can't believe people believed that.

They didn't even have enough brainpower to research and see she didn't even work on the ME games. Idiots.

I don't even remember this ever happening. 

[draken-heart]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I still can't believe people believed that.

They didn't even have enough brainpower to research and see she didn't even work on the ME games. Idiots.

It even got media coverage. Yay for stupid people! 
http://digitalhippos...o-mass-effect-3 

I'm more upset though that it was done purely to attack her by stirring up ME3 fans, because she said a line in an interview five years ago that she preferred story to gameplay. 

The fact that people are still repeating them seven months later is proof that once someone makes something up, it's hard to shake. 

If it were true, it would also include her in there, to get it staight that shepard can be a lesbian (read gay woman). it could be in there though, you never know with Bioware.

ALso EP i'm guessing you're talking about starting a s/s romance in ME3, otherwise you would remember that a FemShep can have a minimance with Kelly in ME2 that  it has been said will continue into #3.

Modifié par draken-heart, 11 janvier 2012 - 06:58 .

[Ryzaki]

ElitePinecone wrote...

It even got media coverage. Yay for stupid people! 
http://digitalhippos...o-mass-effect-3 

I'm more upset though that it was done purely to attack her by stirring up ME3 fans, because she said a line in an interview five years ago that she preferred story to gameplay. 

The fact that people are still repeating them seven months later is proof that once someone makes something up, it's hard to shake. 

*facepalms*

Ugh yeah. Some gamers make me roll my eyes.

MACharlie1 wrote...

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

I don't even remember this ever happening. 

I
do. They also felt the need to insult her because how dare she not
overly enjoy combat in games! HOW DARE SHE NOT LIKE COMBAT!111!!!

Seriously I rolled my eyes so hard they almost came out of my head. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

[SolidBeast]

ElitePinecone wrote...
I wouldn't ever use words like 'deserve', personally, because Bioware doesn't necessarily owe us m/m romances and I'm wary of anything that looks like entitlement on the part of fans.

I knew this would come up, but I couldn't think of another word more fitting to use than "deserve". I still stand by it,  because of the already recorded dialogue from ME and subsequent fail of an explanation about why they didn't include s/s content for male characters. After all, including plenty of f/f flirting and whatnot but cutting the same content for males does seem unfair. But I understand this has been discussed hundreds of times already. Anyway, my point is that I wouldn't use the term "deserve", if for instance there was no same-sex content whatsoever present in any of the previous games.

Up until six months or so ago, there were (as far as we know) no s/s romances planned for ME3 at all. Cortez and Traynor were added after the decision to delay the game's launch.

That's just it - as far as we know. We can't know that they didn't plan it, only that they didn't announce it.
 

"Was that whole "Shep walking in on gay action" thing made up?"

Yes. Someone created a fake forum post by a Bioware writer (who doesn't even work on Mass Effect) because they were dissatisfied with her work in DA2. They included fake quotes from this writer about having Shepard forcibly become gay, engage in an s/s romance and walk in on someone else. 

Unfortunately more people than I thought possible have believed that crap. It was all done to smear a writer and is 100% false. 

Ah, thought so. Thanks for the reply.

[draken-heart]

anyone think the coming out thing would be a good idea? like especially if someone knows Shepard is with someone of the same sex?

[ElitePinecone]

SolidBeast wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
I wouldn't ever use words like 'deserve', personally, because Bioware doesn't necessarily owe us m/m romances and I'm wary of anything that looks like entitlement on the part of fans.

I knew this would come up, but I couldn't think of another word more fitting to use than "deserve". I still stand by it,  because of the already recorded dialogue from ME and subsequent fail of an explanation about why they didn't include s/s content for male characters. After all, including plenty of f/f flirting and whatnot but cutting the same content for males does seem unfair. But I understand this has been discussed hundreds of times already. Anyway, my point is that I wouldn't use the term "deserve", if for instance there was no same-sex content whatsoever present in any of the previous games.

It's a difficult debate, and it has come up a lot. 

I'll try to clarify what I mean. Sorry if this gets rambling.  

As a fan who would almost certainly appreciate m/m content, ME and ME2 were pretty dissatisfying. Not just because they went out of their way to cater for m/f romances, to the point of making certain interspecies relationships available solely because fans asked for them, but because the explanations given for the lack of any m/m options (and the refusal to admit Liara's relationship was f/f) struck me as inadequate, awkward, ridiculous and probably unfair.

Invoking the mindset of a PG-13 action movie (whatever that means?), or Shepard's mystical status as a 'predefined character' with a 'more predefined view' (gee, thanks Ray!) was verbal gymnastics, not an explanation. It was difficult to read and I'm sure it was awkward to say. When devs started insisting Liara wasn't female, and that a femShep-Liara romance wasn't same-sex, things turned a little farcical. 

Bioware were well aware of the absence of m/m prior to ME2, and they had adequate resources to provide for 6 m/f romances (plus Kelly, plus Gianna, plus Shiala). I've heard more than once that s/s romances were planned in development but vetoed by executives at a higher level than the writers. Then Gavorn popped up in a Shadow Broker video, in what I'm sure was a knowing nod that came offf a bit sour (here's your m/m romance, in a joke reel involving a minor character). Before the launch delay it looked like there wouldn't be any s/s in ME3, either - and if it turns out Sam and Steve are the only options, we can safely assume they were gracefully (?) shoehorned into the game when the writers realised they needed some s/s LIs.  

So, yes, I'd be the first to say fans 'deserve' a bit of lovin' from Bioware. As a fan, I can rage and gnash my teeth and wail at the state of the industry with the best of them. I completely agree that after two games' worth of stonewalling, obfuscation and PR-nonsense-speak, the least that could be done is more romance options. 

But here's the thing. Bioware owes us nothing. 

Really. They don't. They're a business, after all, and businesses have costs and risks and investments and pointy-headed people to tell them what will and won't sell. A creator of a work is perfectly entitled to have complete control over its content, particularly when we're dealing with an investment of tens of millions of dollars. If Bioware does its market research and crunches the telemtry, and considers that allocating x amount of zots to s/s romances isn't worth putting those same zots towards explosions or a robotic dog or twenty six preorder DLCs, that's what they'll do. 
 

One could argue, clearly, that as an artistic venture and an entertainment medium gaming studios have a unique relationship with their fans that might, on occasion, lead to using the word 'deserve' a bit more. I'm sure there are many people at Bioware who love interacting with fans and who work as hard as they can to create content fans will love and enjoy. The studio as a whole has a reputation for progressivism generally, especially with female and non-heterosexual characters, and I'm wary of accusing just about the only company who does s/s romances of being callous when I don't know the internal situation. 

But to invoke quaint notions of 'fairness' doesn't gel with the numbers. The market for s/s content, for example - clearly larger than people think, since Bioware are always surprised by how many people use it, but not so large that they feel the need to include it in every game. More to the point, if s/s content sold more units, rather than just causing controversy, we'd see it in many more games from other studios. Clearly, Bioware don't see the need to crusade for it, since its inclusion in Mass Effect has been divisive, inconsistent and marked by timidity. 

I don't doubt that fans 'deserve' s/s content, and I agree that they do. But Bioware are under no obligation to provide it, just as they're under no obligation to listen to any random fan who wanders into the forum screaming for more guns or boobies or The Witcher-style sex scenes. They're a company who listens to its fans, sure, but only to a point - and to imagine anything otherwise seems a little naive. 

One of the original purposes of this thread (or one of its incarnations over the years) was to suggest to Bioware that there was a market for s/s romances and that it made sense to include them because people would actually use the content in some numbers. If we're arguing about fairness and deservedness to a company that happily (and with good reason?) ignored fairness and deservedness for two games, and in an industry that still barely acknowledges that such content is possible, we've already lost. If that's a little pessimistic, I'd point you to ME and ME2, and 'pre-defined characters'. 

I'm glad that there's s/s content in ME3. It looks intriguing, well-written, allows us to define Shepard further and opens up the romance side of the game to more choices for more players. All of this is a good thing, and I'm glad Bioware are doing it. 

But they could've just as easily done nothing, and they'd have every right - particularly when m/m content in particular pisses off and probably disgusts the very people they're trying to attract as an audience. As much as I'd like to hope Edmonton had some sort of Damascene conversion (and I'd use a different idiom if I could) and graciously rained down s/s on their fanbase out of the goodness of their hearts, I suspect it has far more to do with a larger budget and the realisation that a market exists, than any real thoughts of fans 'deserving' anything. 

I could be wrong, and I hope I am wrong. It'd be lovely if the decision was made because of fan feedback about the absence of s/s in previous games. 

[who would know]

ElitePinecone wrote...

When devs started insisting Liara wasn't female, and that a femShep-Liara romance wasn't same-sex, things turned a little farcical.

That's putting it mildly...

[ElitePinecone]

draken-heart wrote...

anyone think the coming out thing would be a good idea? like especially if someone knows Shepard is with someone of the same sex?

No, not particularly - I mean, have it as an option but certainly don't make it mandatory for the s/s ones. We don't know what social mores are like in 2185, but some people play Shepard as having been out for years.  

The leaked script did have a few occasions where Shepard could discuss their love life with a random character (one of them was Kelly, I think) and the line for every LI is just "I've met [charater X]. s/he's a [job/role]."

[jlb524]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I still can't believe people believed that.

They didn't even have enough brainpower to research and see she didn't even work on the ME games. Idiots.

It even got media coverage. Yay for stupid people! 
http://digitalhippos...o-mass-effect-3 

I'm more upset though that it was done purely to attack her by stirring up ME3 fans, because she said a line in an interview five years ago that she preferred story to gameplay. 

The fact that people are still repeating them seven months later is proof that once someone makes something up, it's hard to shake. 

Oh geez, I missed that somehow.

All I can say is 

[SolidBeast]

ElitePinecone wrote...
<snip>

Well, that was a long read / write , that was actually altogether unnecessary, because I am already aware of all this - but then, it was my fault for not elaborating on my opinion earlier. It was a good read, nonetheless, and one I nearly completely agree with.
To clarify, though; the fact that I do understand how BioWare as a business ultimately owes us nothing, I was arguing the fairness of including such content in light of what has happened, not the realistic expectations for including it. I hope that makes sense.

[bleetman]

Ryzaki wrote...

They also felt the need to insult her because how dare she not overly enjoy combat in games! HOW DARE SHE NOT LIKE COMBAT!111!!! Seriously I rolled my eyes so hard they almost came out of my head.

A writer with a preference for story. Colour me astounded.

I don't know whether to be glad or disappointed I missed that whole thing. I'm going to shoot for 'both'.

ElitePinecone wrote...

Then Gavorn popped up in a Shadow Broker video, in what I'm sure was a knowing nod that came offf a bit sour (here's your m/m romance, in a joke reel involving a minor character).

It would've probably helped were that footage not part of a collection assembled for a notorious information broker and mixed in with other clips of characters running people over, meeting with cerberus operatives or being punched in the face by krogans. That his sexuality is apparently so interesting and noteworthy that it's worth assembling footage on rubs me the wrong way a little.

But then, I'm an unrelenting pessemist.

Modifié par bleetman, 11 janvier 2012 - 03:59 .

[ElitePinecone]

bleetman wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Then Gavorn popped up in a Shadow Broker video, in what I'm sure was a knowing nod that came offf a bit sour (here's your m/m romance, in a joke reel involving a minor character).

It would've probably helped were that footage not part of a collection assembled for a notorious information broker and mixed in with other clips of characters running people over, meeting with cerberus operatives or being punched in the face by krogans. That his sexuality is apparently so interesting and noteworthy that it's worth assembling footage on rubs me the wrong way a little.

But then, I'm an unrelenting pessemist.

I'd never considered that. :/ 

It doesn't lead to very nice conclusions. 

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh *points at ME2 romances*

Mostly gender neutral. All straight. (Miranda is very gender neutral from what I remember in her romance...Tali I think only has that "how could she not fall in love with him?" comment dealing with Shep's gender [but I might've missed something], Thane is pretty gender specific with the Siha thing, not sure/don't care about Jacob, Garrus...I'm pretty sure Garrus is pretty or completely gender neutral, not sure about Jack either.)

At this point me being pessimistic is erring on the side of Vega being straight so I don't have to be crushed if he isn't and I can be happily surprised if he is.

Garrus has the supportive waist comment, which in the context is clearly a comment towards a human female. Tali has "a young woman rescued by a dashing commander who lets her join his crew" line and "how could she possibly develop any kind of interest in him?" line. Thane has the Siha thing. Jack's romance is complaicated regarding the bisexual thing in general but in the end, for one reason or another, she has a rejection line for FemShep mentioning the female aspect specifically. Only Miranda & Jacob have really gender-neutral dialogues. But then, they mention other potential o/s LIs if you're flirting with two pople at the same time. Jacob mentions "Maybe you should hang on Thane or Garrus" in a scene he dumps you (if you play the cards wrong). And since you obviously can't romance Thane as MaleShep, even attempt to hit on him, it makes it clear who the line is directed at.

Which reminds me. In both ME1 & ME2 there were multiple lines for all LIs about resolving a situation where you would be 'caught' in a love triangle (flirting with 2 LIs at the same time). In ME1 there was the Liara confrontation scene, and before that both Kaidan & Ash would ask you about your flirting with her. ME2 LIs would tell you to dumb the other one first before progressing with them etc. Where are analogical lines for love triangles in ME3? Haven't seen any. Relationships from previous games are mentioned, but not the ME3-available flirting options. All romances seem to be self-contained. I wonder why that is. Does even small flirting with one person in ME3 automatically locks out relationship options with other LIs? Or were the romance dialogues in the leak indeed more incomplete than we think? Or perhaps we're missing some kind of an initial toggle for who you 'select' to romance wich makes all LIs aware of who you want (both the gender and a specific person)?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 janvier 2012 - 04:25 .

[bleetman]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'd never considered that. :/ 

It doesn't lead to very nice conclusions. 

I suppose it's probably nothing of the kind. There's a few clips of people doing nothing remotely interesting, or stuff just thrown in to stir the rumour mill. I'm just way too cynical.

Modifié par bleetman, 11 janvier 2012 - 04:27 .