25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

About Joker?

I don't favor him as an M/M option because he would fall under the trend of bisexual males who are represented far more as lovers of women than lovers of men.

Examples of this trend?

Sky. Had a wife.
Zevran: Had a girlfriend/female love interest, pretty much says he prefers women.
Anders: In Awakening he says that all he wants is a pretty girl.
Fenris: Has that short story where he winks at a pretty girl, has sex with Isabela if you don't romance either of them, and it's implied that his romance with male Hawke is his first time with a man.

It's tiresome to get all these bisexual male love interests who seem to be portrayed more straight than gay, as if to be safe.

[Quething]

What about Joker has ever particularly indicated that he's particularly hot for women?

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Quething wrote...

What about Joker has ever particularly indicated that he's particularly hot for women?

When Jack and Miranda are fighting Joker asks you to "take pictures".

[Finis Valorum]

Quething wrote...

DA2 is more equitable, I think. You're stuck with Anders no matter what, and even if you do kill him he gets the last word. Izzy you can't kill no matter how much her sexuality offends you, but you also don't have to recruit her. So I don't think there's that same dudebro disparity in the ability to punish NPCs for making you feel icky. Shame to think that it might be back in ME3 

The ME team isn't the DA team unfortunately, personally I'm all for every Li being bi since it allows anyone of us by far the most options to customize our characters to our liking.
Sadly it seems that after DA2 the they're all bi philosophy seems to be dead for the foreseeable future.

[MACharlie1]

Collider wrote...

About Joker?

I don't favor him as an M/M option because he would fall under the trend of bisexual males who are represented far more as lovers of women than lovers of men.

Examples of this trend?

Sky. Had a wife.
Zevran: Had a girlfriend/female love interest, pretty much says he prefers women.
Anders: In Awakening he says that all he wants is a pretty girl.
Fenris: Has that short story where he winks at a pretty girl, has sex with Isabela if you don't romance either of them, and it's implied that his romance with male Hawke is his first time with a man.

It's tiresome to get all these bisexual male love interests who seem to be portrayed more straight than gay, as if to be safe.

Pretty much? He states it outright. 

As for Fenris...it's also strongly implied that he and Denarius were...intimate...during the confrontation. Not sure if that really counts as its more like rape but then again, Fenris seemed to be a willing participant. With him making the choice to do the whole lyrium veins thing and all...

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

What about Joker has ever particularly indicated that he's particularly hot for women?

In LotSB he (off camera) propositions Liara if Shepard is male or NOT her lover, or he hopes that female Shepard and Liara will recreate some lesbian scenes from "Vaenia."  I assume that he is just being a smart ass.

Modifié par Abispa, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:32 .

[Collider]

Quething wrote...
What about Joker has ever particularly indicated that he's particularly hot for women?

Watching porn with women in it.
Interest in Morinth for "being lithe and sexy."
"Take pictures" during the Jack/Miranda fight.
I believe he might have made a comment about Miranda's body somewhere.
And EDI in general.

It's that + the lack of any comments about men.

There's nothing wrong with this, but I don't like that all of the bisexual male options so far are expressive (often quite so) about their interest in women but generally completely mute about interest in men unless you pursue them as the male PC. Zevran may be an exception regarding muteness, but he ends up saying that he prefers women anyway, I believe.

[ReallyRue]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Quething wrote...

What about Joker has ever particularly indicated that he's particularly hot for women?

When Jack and Miranda are fighting Joker asks you to "take pictures".

*de-lurking*
If you hang around the cockpit to hear his random dialogue, there's one where you hear what's obviously porn, with a woman moaning.
*rel-urking*

[Collider]

Pretty much? He states it outright.

I haven't played DA:O in a while.

As for Fenris...it's also strongly implied that he and Denarius were...intimate...during the confrontation. Not sure if that really counts as its more like rape but then again, Fenris seemed to be a willing participant. With him making the choice to do the whole lyrium veins thing and all...

Er, I don't think that counts, exactly. Nor does it look good.
I was going by male Hawke asking Fenris (in the romance scene after sex) if he's feeling strange because he was with a man. That implies that Fenris hasn't done it before, or at least not in a consensual loving way.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

I thought Aveline sides against you if you side with the mages and you don't have enough rivalry/friendship.

You can't kill her though. She refuses to fight you and walks away.

Oh yeah I forgot Isabela's also unkillable.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

I thought Aveline sides against you if you side with the mages and you don't have enough rivalry/friendship.

You can't kill her though. She refuses to fight you and walks away.

Oh yeah I forgot Isabela's also unkillable.

Hmm. Maybe they want those characters for another DA game, then. Probably.

[MACharlie1]

Collider wrote...

Pretty much? He states it outright.

I haven't played DA:O in a while.

As for Fenris...it's also strongly implied that he and Denarius were...intimate...during the confrontation. Not sure if that really counts as its more like rape but then again, Fenris seemed to be a willing participant. With him making the choice to do the whole lyrium veins thing and all...

Er, I don't think that counts, exactly. Nor does it look good.
I was going by male Hawke asking Fenris (in the romance scene after sex) if he's feeling strange because he was with a man. That implies that Fenris hasn't done it before, or at least not in a consensual loving way.

I know. I just like picking out little irrelevant details. 

Should mention that if the leak is anything to go by, if Vega is bi, then he will be exactly the same way. 

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh yeah I forgot Isabela's also unkillable.

Sebastian (unfortunately) too.

[Collider]

Should mention that if the leak is anything to go by, if Vega is bi, then he will be exactly the same way

Sadly. Granted, Joker still seems more overt about it.

Though Steve teases Vega about liking bears or something (which is a gay slang term for burly men), so there's hope yet.

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Collider wrote...

Though Steve teases Vega about liking bears or something (which is a gay slang term for burly men), so there's hope yet.

He could actually be talking about the animal itself because (like Vega) they're large, loud, and destructive.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...
I was going by male Hawke asking Fenris (in the romance scene after sex) if he's feeling strange because he was with a man. That implies that Fenris hasn't done it before, or at least not in a consensual loving way.

That's Hawke's perception of the situation and therefore it's not necessarily true.

[shepskisaac]

MACharlie1 wrote...
Should mention that if the leak is anything to go by, if Vega is bi, then he will be exactly the same way. 

Unfortunately Would still like him though

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

He could actually be talking about the animal itself because (like Vega) they're large, loud, and destructive.

Urhm, no, the joke is not abotu what Vega is like but what Vega likes. Honestly, at this point I don't see any other possible context for that joke than 'bear' type of guys

Modifié par IsaacShep, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:45 .

[MACharlie1]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Collider wrote...

Though Steve teases Vega about liking bears or something (which is a gay slang term for burly men), so there's hope yet.

He could actually be talking about the animal itself because (like Vega) they're large, loud, and destructive.

...nah. Since the line immediatley following (by I guess Vega) is:

"What's so funny?"

I can't remember; who tweeted immediatly following Casey's announcement of m/m love interests that 30 years ago it would have been controversal about the interacial relationships? 

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...
I was going by male Hawke asking Fenris (in the romance scene after sex) if he's feeling strange because he was with a man. That implies that Fenris hasn't done it before, or at least not in a consensual loving way.

That's Hawke's perception of the situation and therefore it's not necessarily true.

Sure, but if it wasn't actually Fenris' first experience, it might have been worth mentioning as they did with Anders.
Fenris also says "It's not that" after male Hawke asks that question, instead of denying it.
In addition, I question the point of writing male Hawke bringing that up if it's not even true or relevant.

Ultimately, Isabela and the short story are enough for my point, though, whichever case.

[Quething]

Yeah, Abispa said it, Joker's a smartass. None of that says anything about his personal life or what he's actually into and doesn't push him at all as primarily lady-focused (though it would, I agree, at least make him a stretch for completely gay). It just means he likes to crack vaguely sexist jokes. And we don't know what kind of porn he's into, only that it's kinky - but for the record, big ole lesbian here, and I read and get off on het and boyslash porn just fine. A woman moaning in his porn one time isn't at all on the same level as Zevran's "oh I love the ladies, totally, all about the ladies, but hey, if a guy really pushes it I suppose I don't mind."

Fenris/Isabela vexes me for a number of reasons, but yeah, the fact that it's het for both of them is one of them. (Izzy's one love is also male, but since Merrill has no history either way and DA:O gave us Leliana who I still think was swapped from lesbian to bi 75% of the way through the production schedule, the female half of the equation is less vexing on the whole, I think.) But as Finis Valorum points out, they're (mostly) different teams between games; and Liara and Kelly, at least, never seemed remotely biased one way or the other.

Though on that point, I suppose Kaidan does spend half his dialog in ME1 telling you about the ex-not-quite-girlfriend who shaped his whole outlook on life, so. Another reason to hope Steve is exclusive and Vega's also an option.

[Ryzaki]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh yeah I forgot Isabela's also unkillable.

Sebastian (unfortunately) too.

I forgot about poor Seb. D: 

[Wulfram]

Merrill does comment that the Qunari are "Easy on the eye". And arguably flirts with Carver

[Collider]

Yeah, Abispa said it, Joker's a smartass. None of that says anything about his personal life or what he's actually into and doesn't push him at all as primarily lady-focused (though it would, I agree, at least make him a stretch for completely gay). It just means he likes to crack vaguely sexist jokes. And we don't know what kind of porn he's into, only that it's kinky - but for the record, big ole lesbian here, and I read and get off on het and boyslash porn just fine. A woman moaning in his porn one time isn't at all on the same level as Zevran's "oh I love the ladies, totally, all about the ladies, but hey, if a guy really pushes it I suppose I don't mind."

To clarify, I'm not arguing about whether Joker actually prefers women over men. More to do with how he is represented and the image he impresses, which is many references to women & sex (whether genuine or jocular) and none whatsoever for men.

It's not bad as Zevran - but it would still be in the trend of bisexual male love interests generally being expressive/experienced only or mostly for women outside of the actual same sex romance.

As you noted, it's different for female bisexual love interests because some of them are either relatively neutral (Merill, Liara) or have history/tendency with women (Juhani/Leliana/Isabela) or something. On the other hand you have Silk Fox, who had more experience with men I believe. In other words, F/F love interests are more diverse about this than male love interests, who are pretty much uniform.

It's possible that Vega is another iteration of this - but that's not for certain especially with the bear comment mentioned.

Modifié par Collider, 17 janvier 2012 - 12:05 .

[shepskisaac]

Quething wrote...

Though on that point, I suppose Kaidan does spend half his dialog in ME1 telling you about the ex-not-quite-girlfriend who shaped his whole outlook on life, so. Another reason to hope Steve is exclusive and Vega's also an option.

That one wasn't even much of an issue to me like the Liara comment was. It's like two different pople wrote some of Kaidan dialogues. In one, Kaidan basically says he's not into Liara or asari ("She's a nice girl but I never claimed to be big into alien culture blah blah" line), in another, he's transforming into "Yeah Liara's easy on the eyes!" bro lol.

[bleetman]

Wulfram wrote...

Merrill does comment that the Qunari are "Easy on the eye". And arguably flirts with Carver

I'm not sure flirting is something Merrill's really got figured out.