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♂♂ • ♀♀ For The Love — The Same-Sex Romance Discussion Thread **may contain spoilers**


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#15201
Jazinto

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ElitePinecone wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm not bothered if Cortez is the only S/S option for males. He seems like a good character, even if he pales in comparison to Vega. Him being exclusive would be a huge plus.

It's not being fine with crumbs, but rather being fine with being given what you're commercially worth. I know I'm a minority and I won't get as much the majority gets and that's just something I have to make peace with. That doesn't mean I'm not going to fight tooth and nail when I want opportunities that will increase my enjoyment of a piece of entertainment, though.

But really, I'd say an entire romance dedicated to M/M or F/F is a pretty big deal and gesture by Bioware.


This. 

I understand that people would be disappointed if Cortez were the only option. I'm sympathetic to the idea that m/m options, in a perfect world, should be at least as numerous as f/f - and that ideally, players should have some sort of choice. 

But for two years (three?) this thread and its predecessors suggested to Bioware that having more s/s options in Bioware games would be a good thing, a sensible thing and probably even a fairer thing. We pointed out that there was a market for s/s content, that their explanations for its absence were pretty farcical, and that a not-insignificant section of their fanbase would be more engaged with the universe if it featured greater diversity. 

They did this, in ME3. They didn't need to. They didn't have to. It almost certainly would've been easier, cheaper and simpler not to. By all accounts, s/s romances weren't even on the cards up until about eight months ago. 

But they did it. Yes, it might not be as much as you'd hoped - and it might not even be with characters that you'd hoped it would be with. 

But remember: Bioware are under no obligation to provide anything to anybody. S/s romances provoke a storm of conrtroversy in any media, particularly videogames. This studio is literally one of the only ones - the only ones - to create s/s content that is unique, fleshed-out, story-appropriate and relatively inclusive. Every time they do, a legion of privileged and entitled people scream that there's too much s/s content in the game, or that it's too obvious, explicit or in the player's face. A studio wishing to avoid controversy may just cut s/s content altogether, and save themselves the trouble. 

I'm not going to say 'don't be disappointed'. But being angry with Bioware for not going far enough, when they had no obligation to do anything to begin with, seems a little unfair.

Plus it looks a little odd when the same people who were celebrating and lauding Bioware's inclusion of s/s romances a few months ago are now upset because it isn't the type or amount they wanted. 


Maybe we're not entitled to a romance, but neither is Bioware automatically entitled to praise. They might have been, if they hadn't announced a M/M romance rather than just let players discover it and go "Oh, look at that!" Or if they would have said in the announcement that the M/M option is only a crew member, not a squadmate. (As opposed to fostering expectations.) Of course Mr. Hudson tweeted on the very same day right before the S/S announcement:

CaseyDHudson
.@Jexx21 Love interests won't all necessarily be permanent squad members in #ME3 . Interesting new things happening in that area.


But in the S/S buzz this might have gone somewhat less noticed. Apart from Kelly all LI were squad members up until then. To be fair the name of a new male character was already known. And Bioware insists on not talking about LI. Naturally some people thought "It must be the new guy then." Others hoped it might be Kaidan. People got their hopes up and crushing hope obviously leads to disappointment and frustration, especially with everything gay, because it's so rare.

I was done with Mass Effect. When they announced ME3 I didn't care. Only when I read about M/M romance I got interested. I actually became one of those fans, waiting half a day in a way too loud, sticky convention hall just to play the demo for 10 or 15 minutes. If I would have known it was only a crew member, maybe I wouldn't have bothered. It's never happened before that a character outside the squad had as much interactions and was just as well developed as an actual squad member. Crew members don't fight alongside you, which also means they have much less opportunity to comment on what Shepard does. This time they might do it a lot better than Kelly in ME2, but that's still basically how it goes. It just looks like it wouldn't be equal to the other romances.
So I wouldn't mind so much if the single M/M option turned out to be a squad member. Only one option is fine as long as it's a good one. But having only one choice and for him to be a crew member seems like the worst of all possiblities. I'm still glad they're including us, but I won't praise Bioware just for that, not without seeing how they did it. I reserve my judgement until I know more.

#15202
dgcatanisiri

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IsaacShep wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
It's hilarious in the sad way don't you think? :lol:

And it's the reason why it's hard to me to take "well, I should be glad I'm getting anything at all" approach, when I see BW happily spending time to give ManShep another harem while *possibly* only willing to take time for 1 m/m LI :mellow:


That's my stance too. Yes, I love getting any kind of serious inclusion at all, because BioWare didn't have to do it at all - the romances are all optional in the first place anyway. BUT when straight male Shepards have HOW many women throwing themselves at him, straight female Shepards have an almost equal ammount, and lesbian Shepards still getting two or three options while there's only one for gay male Shepards... Yeah, that grates. I'm not asking for an equal amount of options for gay male Shepards (God knows at this point it'd be difficult to implement and obviously creating a lot more controversy about how 'I don't want no dudes hitting on me!' from the groups who got so twitchy about Anders and the sort), just options beyond 'this guy or Forever Alone.'

#15203
SolidBeast

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I can't get over the fact they'd consider it "less cost / resource efficient" to make a squadmate bi and expand player choice, but they could spend those resources on making the huge pile of nonsensical bullsh*t that is the EDI/Joker romance.
That is assuming Cortez is the only option (vs. 3 f/f LIs) and we get the "didn't have enough resources / needed to cut content" talk.

#15204
Ryzaki

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SolidBeast wrote...


I can't get over the fact they'd consider it "less cost / resource efficient" to make a squadmate bi and expand player choice, but they could spend those resources on making the huge pile of nonsensical bullsh*t that is the EDI/Joker romance.
That is assuming Cortez is the only option (vs. 3 f/f LIs) and we get the "didn't have enough resources / needed to cut content" talk.


...You just had to remind me of that s*** didn't you. <_<

Ugh.

And yeah if there weren't enough resources for gay Shep but enough for Garrus and Tali to hook up along with Joker and EDI. :pinched:

#15205
bas_kon

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I completely agree with Luca Stern, had I know they were gonna do this, I would have just borrowed the game from a friend, just to shoot the weapons and see the end as I do with other games.

If steve is the sole m/m, I don't know why they announced s/s for both genders in the first place, because in that case, the only truly s/s romance, would be Liara which is f/f and o/s but NOT m/m. Plus, she isn't anything new at this point...

To me, Steve and Samantha are just easter eggs, maybe well developed exclusive-to-s/s easter eggs which would have been welcome in ME2 alongside Kelly. But now, Liara is a full squad member and also f/f and while other players get a number of well developed romance/s and easter eggs, we m/m players get stuck just with just one well developed easter egg.

Also, I read some people think the silence from bioware is a good sign, and whilst if this were the DA team I would agree with them, I can't do it now, since last time they refused to say anything about s/s, ME2 happened.
Thus, to me they are making Steve the only s/s, to please their beloved straight teen fanbase (because I refuse to believe adult straight males would care about that) and "keep" their promise of giving an m/m romance.

PS: I'm not ungrateful for Steve, I apreciate having him there. But the thing that ****** me off is that they announced m/m romances when they didn't need to, just to turn out to be an improved Kelly.<_<

#15206
coldSnap

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SolidBeast wrote...


I can't get over the fact they'd consider it "less cost / resource efficient" to make a squadmate bi and expand player choice, but they could spend those resources on making the huge pile of nonsensical bullsh*t that is the EDI/Joker romance.
That is assuming Cortez is the only option (vs. 3 f/f LIs) and we get the "didn't have enough resources / needed to cut content" talk.


Joker and Edi have a romance... just... just no. Friendsip yes, romance...?

#15207
Finis Valorum

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SolidBeast wrote...


I can't get over the fact they'd consider it "less cost / resource efficient" to make a squadmate bi and expand player choice, but they could spend those resources on making the huge pile of nonsensical bullsh*t that is the EDI/Joker romance.
That is assuming Cortez is the only option (vs. 3 f/f LIs) and we get the "didn't have enough resources / needed to cut content" talk.


The whole Multiplayer crap falls in the same boat for me, if, indeed, we are going to get the whole "we're sorry but we didn't have the resources/needed to cut some content to meet deadlines" or some other talk in that direction when it comes to the lack of choice in m/m options, especially when compared to the fact that there's going to be at least three f/f options.

Also I'm still wondering exactly how optional multiplayer will turn out to be if we don't want to settle for the the you fail or you suck endings.

#15208
bleetman

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At the risk of derailing things any further: you don't need to do online multiplayer to get the best ending. This has been stated many, many times. Worst case scenario, I figure you'll be able to grind out lost save-the-day points if you make a particularly bad decision in singleplayer.

As for me, I don't really buy into the whole 'resources!' thing. I'm sure it's pretty accurate (I mean, assuming they don't have everything they need to implement it right there in front of them already, as with ME1), but, well... I have a hard time reading it as something other than "yeah, we aren't really all that bothered about implementing this" whenever it comes up under a given topic. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy and all that about it being included for once, but if it comes down to 'we only had the time and resources to add the one' alongside the veritable army of Hot Wimmins chrushing on Shepard, it's going to be pretty bloody obvious where their priorities lay.

/tries to be optimistic for once.

#15209
Medhia Nox

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To people like Luca_Stern and bas_kon: S/S romances are the only reason you play RPGs?

Was the story of ME 1 and 2 not good enough to sustain your interest without romance at all?

Do you really think the "romances" in video games satisfy the same type of storytelling niche they fill in say... a movie or a book?

Yes, romances in these games do form "connections" to characters - but it's far more based on the "what happens off game" imagination of the player - than what's provided in game (which I find extremely poor quality).

EDIT: I would understand your view more if the romances truly played an integral part to the story. But they certainly have not so far.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:06 .


#15210
SolidBeast

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Ryzaki wrote...
...You just had to remind me of that s*** didn't you. <_<


I need others to rage with me. ^_^

I mean, the Tali and Garrus thing, I guess I can even sort of see (although I always thought Garrus might have a bit of a crush on Tali, but she seemed completely disinterested - note: didn't study them). They're similar and they make a cute couple (in my opinion). But the only being I could see EDI hooking up with would be Legion. And why the obsession with finding every character a pair, anyway? The whole twist with her seems like something devs came up with drunk and "for the lulz". In other words, it's immature.

Modifié par SolidBeast, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:40 .


#15211
bas_kon

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Medhia Nox wrote...

To people like Luca_Stern and bas_kon: S/S romances are the only reason you play RPGs?

Was the story of ME 1 and 2 not good enough to sustain your interest without romance at all?

Do you really think the "romances" in video games satisfy the same type of storytelling niche they fill in say... a movie or a book?

Yes, romances in these games do form "connections" to characters - but it's far more based on the "what happens off game" imagination of the player - than what's provided in game (which I find extremely poor quality).

EDIT: I would understand your view more if the romances truly played an integral part to the story. But they certainly have not so far.


Well, it's not so much about the romance's importance in the game as a whole, but having a story as complete as anyone else's, since I pay the same price for less content.

And yes, one of the reasons I find Bioware games different enough from other RPGs or games in general, to want to replay them, is their romances. I wouldn't pay 70€ for a game to play it just once, to be honest, I'd just borrow it as I did with RE5, FFXIII or SR3. No matter how awesome the story is, once I know the end theres nothing there for me.

The reaper's story could have been told by any other game, RPG or not, even the fact that your character connects with someone at that level, beyond companions or friends has been used before.
It's the choice of you deciding who that person is, not some ramdom chick or wife they impose you, but the person you think fits your character better, what makes these games so appealing to me. Like watching an interactive movie. 

But when it comes to replaying, I rarely make different choices since I find the renegade ones too "teen-ish" and class differences are not enough to make me replay. Romances, though, make me want to, just to find out how the story turns out with certain character.

Edit: quoted myself, sorry

Modifié par bas_kon, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:48 .


#15212
bas_kon

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Modifié par bas_kon, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:46 .


#15213
Ryzaki

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SolidBeast wrote...
I need others to rage with me. ^_^

I mean, the Tali and Garrus thing, I guess I can even sort of see (although I always thought Garrus might have a bit of a crush on Tali, but she seemed completely disinterested - note: didn't study them). They're similar and they make a cute couple (in my opinion). But the only being I could see EDI hooking up with would be Legion. And why the obsession with finding every character a pair, anyway? The whole twist with her seems like something devs came up with drunk and "for the lulz". In other words, it's immature.


Grrr...well I'm raging all right.

And agreed with everything you said...but I actually *like* GarrusxTali. It's a cute couple.


EDI and Joker makes Joker look pathetic and EDI look like a fool. *to me just to clarify*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 janvier 2012 - 07:02 .


#15214
shepskisaac

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Medhia Nox wrote...

To people like Luca_Stern and bas_kon: S/S romances are the only reason you play RPGs?

Yes, obviously romances are the only reason Luca_Stern and bas_kon played ME1 & ME2 which had, let me count, ZERO m/m romances :huh:

#15215
SolidBeast

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Ryzaki wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...
I need others to rage with me. ^_^

I mean, the Tali and Garrus thing, I guess I can even sort of see (although I always thought Garrus might have a bit of a crush on Tali, but she seemed completely disinterested - note: didn't study them). They're similar and they make a cute couple (in my opinion). But the only being I could see EDI hooking up with would be Legion. And why the obsession with finding every character a pair, anyway? The whole twist with her seems like something devs came up with drunk and "for the lulz". In other words, it's immature.


Grrr...well I'm raging all right.

And agreed with everything you said...but I actually *like* GarrusxTali. It's a cute couple.


EDI and Joker makes Joker look pathetic and EDI look like a fool. *to me just to clarify*



What I find even funnier is Joker basically going "No thanks, Shepard, I don't date crew, but I think I'll go with the robot crew member." That's some serious Jokermancer trolling right there.

#15216
Ryzaki

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SolidBeast wrote...

What I find even funnier is Joker basically going "No thanks, Shepard, I don't date crew, but I think I'll go with the robot crew member." That's some serious Jokermancer trolling right there.


Yeah that was just...just...*rubs temples* that level of fail was astounding.

I would've preferred he said Shep wasn't his type. That's it. That's all that needed to be said.

Apparently his type is chrome fembots that don't have the messy complications organics have.

*takes a deep breath* seriously this whole subplot made my respect for Joker plummet.

#15217
Finis Valorum

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SolidBeast wrote...

What I find even funnier is Joker basically going "No thanks, Shepard, I don't date crew, but I think I'll go with the robot crew member." That's some serious Jokermancer trolling right there.


Maybe we also get to find out that the doctor Kaidan has been or is dating on the Citadel is male but he's still unavailable for MShep.

#15218
shepskisaac

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Finis Valorum wrote...

Maybe we also get to find out that the doctor Kaidan has been or is dating on the Citadel is male but he's still unavailable for MShep.

Nah don't worry, the doctor wasn't mentioned at all anywhere in the leak ;)

#15219
Vapaa

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SolidBeast wrote...
(although I always thought Garrus might have a bit of a crush on Tali, but she seemed completely disinterested - note: didn't study them).


Tali has a crush on Shepard, wheter you romance her or not, so Garrus would just be a backup option; I know this doesn't mean Bioware have to make her avalible for Femshep.......BUT STILL ! :pinched:

Modifié par Vapaä, 27 janvier 2012 - 07:25 .


#15220
Finis Valorum

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IsaacShep wrote...
Nah don't worry, the doctor wasn't mentioned at all anywhere in the leak ;)


The rather incomplete leak. It's not like the doctor is central to Kaidan like the dead husband is to Steve.
For all we know Kaidan might just refer to him in one brief remark somewhere.

#15221
shepskisaac

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Finis Valorum wrote...

The rather incomplete leak. It's not like the doctor is central to Kaidan like the dead husband is to Steve.
For all we know Kaidan might just refer to him in one brief remark somewhere.

Everything's possible, but then again, even in the Horizon letter he made it sound like it was really small unimportant date his friends basically made him to go on so I doubt that character has any importance, even for a mention

#15222
SolidBeast

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Finis Valorum wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

What I find even funnier is Joker basically going "No thanks, Shepard, I don't date crew, but I think I'll go with the robot crew member." That's some serious Jokermancer trolling right there.


Maybe we also get to find out that the doctor Kaidan has been or is dating on the Citadel is male but he's still unavailable for MShep.


Sadly, that's not so different from us finding out Gavorn is gay and into humans.... through a Shadow Broker video. :pinched:


Vapaä wrote...

Tali
has a crush on Shepard, wheter you romance her or not, so Garrus would
just be a backup option; I know this doesn't mean Bioware have to make
her avalible for Femshep.......BUT STILL ! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]


Yeah, I know she's into Shepard, but even so, it never seemed to me like she'd choose Garrus even as a backup option.
I was surprised when she used the whole "linking suit environments" line on femShep. But really? Another s/s option for femShep? I already feel like I'm playing a canon lesbian, even when I romance noone. In my opinion, they should have ditched all the minor f/f characters and made Tali available to female characters from the start instead. Of course, provided Thane (for example) was bi, too. I really dislike the female bias.

#15223
Blacklash93

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Hopefully we'll get that scene with Cortez on Sur'Kesh that was in the leaked beta, seeing as the demo should be similar to it. Without the lighting bugs, too.

#15224
shepskisaac

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Yeah, by Feb 14 we will know how he looks since Sur'Kesh will be in the demo

#15225
FFWarQueen

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I'm looking forward to seeing all the boys Kaidan, Vega, and, Cortez in the demo!