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[Blacklash93]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...
What if they decided to make Steve and Sam bi to give more options to O/S players since there doesn't seem to be as many as ME2?

It's always possible, but to me this doesn't fit with the development process and the way Steve and Sam were created. 

Bioware planned the s/s romances from a long way out - something like eight or nine months ago, if I'm guessing correctly. They had all the tme in the world then to sit down and tally up who gets what romance in what combination. I'm sure they had the romance planning done *before* the decision to add s/s, which was achieved with new characters and possibly making a select few older characters avalable to both genders. 

Steve and Sam were written, very deliberately, as gay and lesbian crewmembers. I can't find many lines about Sam (that isn't in a Sam-Shep conversation) that don't mention her sexuality. Steve wasn't even given a wife just in case they wanted to make him bisexual one day. A husband is rather harder to retcon. 

What I'm saying is: I don't think it's at all likely that Bioware would write two s/s characters, in great detail, then change their plans. They changed them once already to introduce Steve and Sam, but at that point I'd guess all their other LIs were confirmed. 

It doesn't make sense to me that some time between April/May 2011 and now, somebody at Bioware suddenly realised that they were short on o/s romances and decided to make Steve and Sam available to both genders. If they were going to make them bisexual, they'd have done it when they created the characters. 

True. Changing them to that would require quite a few edits and additions to their dialogue. Big things Samantha's rejection of maleShep would have to be nixed amd small things like Steve mentioning he only likes Asari strippers for the dancing and isn't "hot and bothered" by them would need to be edited.

Not to mention their homosexuality is somewhat pronounced and it is brought up on multiple occassions like with Steve's husband or Samantha mentioning it. There would have to be additions to balance it out to make for a believable bisexual.

They would have had to make the decision to make them bi pretty early after E3 due to the nature of the VO process.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 03 février 2012 - 06:04 .

[silentassassin264]

ElitePinecone wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

GIven the green-light, I am pretty sure Priestly would go through us with a lightsaber like Anakin through the Jedi Temple younglings,

Now THAT is a fantastic mental image. 

Surely Woo cares?

Woo would probably use a couple dozen for target practice but I think he would leave some survivors.  He also seems like the type who would strike up a cordial conversation while his rifle barrel was still smoking and act like nothing just happened.  

And Garrus would do that as well...with the love of his life Sheploo at his side.  (Don't shoot me Woo:unsure:)

Modifié par silentassassin264, 03 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[ElitePinecone]

Blacklash93 wrote...
snip

I forget when E3 was (mid last year, ish?) but like Isaac said, s/s romances were announced in late April/early May, only a couple of weeks after the decision was made to delay the game's launch. 

I have no evidence for it, but I'm willing to suggest they only made the decision to include s/s romances in that period. They suddenly had an extra six months of development, probably had more resources to work with, and could do some extra tidbits (an embedded journalist, say) that they hadn't originally factored into their plans. 

Looking at the leaked script, 'Greg Cortez' and 'Sharon Allers' are two completely different characters who appear in what looks like redundant-but-kept lines. Greg Cortez is the XO, Allers was the communications specialist before Traynor. 

To change them into Steve Cortez, Diana Allers and Samantha Traynor would've required significant work - writing an extra character's dialogue, for instance, or planning new cutscenes and conversations. 

My point at the end of this ramble is that I'd argue s/s romances were solidly planned only back in April, and then the work for them was done with the rest of the game's VA. Changing them *after* that seems odd, given that they had the chance to make them bisexual when they were revising their original plans and characters. 

(Not to mention that more and more of the videos we've seen match up exactly with lines from the leaked beta.)

[Jazinto]

I wonder why they changed his name to Steve then. Or why they named him Steve, if they started from scratch. Either they tried to be witty, which clearly failed, supportive to the gay community, or it was subconscious thing, either way because of Adam and Steve. I always found that expression horribly straight and offensive, just like Romeo and Julian. It's part of this obsession, that only the bottom is really gay and emasculated though this act, replacing the woman in a relationship. All the more disturbing, if you think about how much the society likes to tell everyone how it's perception of women has changed or how the media encourages women to stereotypically male "be strong" behaviour. Correct would be Adam and Adam or Adam and some other random name, that doesn't resemble Eve. I'm not saying Bioware purposefully picked the name Steve with this negative intention. (There a probably loads of people supporting the idea of Adam and Steve with gayfriendly intentions.) But out of all the hundreds of thousands of names available they chose Steve. It's a video game. They could have picked a random word like they did with Kaidan or made one up like alien names. I don't mind the name so much by itself, but it's part of all the things adding up. I just hope this was kind of intern joke, though Vega's Esteban comments make me doubt that. Maybe somebody else noticed, since they usually think carefully about what they do. Maybe Steve was cut altogether. We'll find out soon enough.

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...
snip

Steve and Samantha are literally S and S. It's a little jab on the part of the developers. 

That's... basically all there is to it, I think. I find it pretty funny. 

There aren't too many common vaguely Canadian/American caucasian male names starting with 'S', a quick browse at some popularity lists of baby names only turns up 'Samuel' in the top 10 for the United States. 

Having a Samuel and a Samantha might get confusing, especially if we were to call both of them Sam.

I think you may be reading a bit too much into it.  

[Jazinto]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Steve and Samantha are literally S and S. It's a little jab on the part of the developers. 

That's... basically all there is to it, I think. I find it pretty funny. 

There aren't too many common vaguely Canadian/American caucasian male names starting with 'S', a quick browse at some popularity lists of baby names only turns up 'Samuel' in the top 10 for the United States. 

Having a Samuel and a Samantha might get confusing, especially if we were to call both of them Sam.

I think you may be reading a bit too much into it.  

Scott, Stan, Seth and Sean come to mind, there are enough names and his last names doesn't exactly limit the choice to anglo-american names. Out of all those names they just happen to pick Steve? No way. Maybe not consciously, but certainly not accidentally.

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Steve and Samantha are literally S and S. It's a little jab on the part of the developers. 

That's... basically all there is to it, I think. I find it pretty funny. 

There aren't too many common vaguely Canadian/American caucasian male names starting with 'S', a quick browse at some popularity lists of baby names only turns up 'Samuel' in the top 10 for the United States. 

Having a Samuel and a Samantha might get confusing, especially if we were to call both of them Sam.

I think you may be reading a bit too much into it.  

Scott, Stan, Seth and Sean come to mind, there are enough names and his last names doesn't exactly limit the choice to anglo-american names. Out of all those names they just happen to pick Steve? No way. Maybe not consciously, but certainly not accidentally.

Well, unless we get the chance to ask a Bioware dev I doubt we'll ever know.

But I think tying it to 'Adam and Steve' is still drawing a connection where one doesn't seem to exist. Even if it was a reference, it wouldn't be derogatory or malicious. Calling a married character 'Steve' can reference the line humourously without making all sorts of inferences about masculinity or gender roles. To be honest, I think you're overthinking the implications of 'Steve' replacing 'Eve'. The words rhyme. Complex thoughts on gender politics and queer theory are rarely the domain of the sort of people who come up with glib slogans. 

Bioware's writers are literally some of the most liberal and supportive of gay rights in the industry, if you follow some of their non-developer pursuits and postings. Making a joke through Steve's name, let alone one that you think is a jab at the audience they're providing him for, is certainly not something I'd ever accuse them of doing. 

[Maugrim]

Tempted to make a Sheploo named Adam now. Partially because there is no way that it's a jab and it would be a great answer back to the people who say it's not supposed to be "Adam and Steve" Well it is now!

[Jazinto]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. I don't think the developers had any bad intentions.
As to why I don't believe it's coincidence, Adam and Eve are one the most well known fictional couples of the world. Almost everbody in the western world knows the story about paradise, apple and snake. And most people will know this story from a very young age. You just have to see or hear "Adam and Steve" without even paying attention and it's in your head.

Modifié par Luca Stern, 03 février 2012 - 10:56 .

[Dirgegun]

Jumping in to add my two cents. I don’t think there is anything meant by the name Steve here (in my opinion, of course. You’re allowed to continue to believe whatever you like.) There are other S names they could have gone with, but writers tend to have an ear for names and sometimes certain names just ‘sound’ right, if that makes sense.

‘Scott Cortez’
‘Seth Cortez’
‘Sean Cortez’

Those combinations, to me, don’t sound quite as good as Steve/Stephan Cortez. I like the other names, but combined with that last name... I don’t feel the sound of the name is quite right. In the real world someone might have that combination and it works fine! But in fiction those small details become more important/are at least paid attention to more.

I’m not saying that’s 100% right, or that my opinion on the name is the same as the writer who created him, but sometimes decisions in writing really are that simple “Does this sound good?”

Also... no, not everyone immediatly thinks 'Adam and Steve' or even 'Adam and Eve'. The Adam and Eve story as well as that silly rhyme involving 'Adam and Steve' was not a thought I had at all when I found out there was a character called Steve. It was also the last thought from my mind when I found out he was likely the exclusive m/m... In fact I didn't think of it at all until just now, when I read that.

Sorry if any of that didn't make sense/just sounded like a ramble. ><

Modifié par Dirgegun, 03 février 2012 - 11:14 .

[bas_kon]

Maybe because there aren't many names beginning with an "S" with a Spanish counterpart, because his real name is Esteban. Scott, Sean...etc don't have Spanish form, at least none that I know of.

But I'm curious. Will he have spanish or southamerican heritage? From some dialog of his, it seems to me that Vega is southamerican, not sure about Steve, though. Maybe he is too.

[Dirgegun]

Brodyaha wrote...

Are there ACTUALLY complaints about the names of characters?

Steve is a nice name. Steve is a common name. Just like many other names that are used in Mass Effect for humans: Ashley, Shepard, Diana, Kelly, Jeff, Jack, David, James.

Seems to be?

You know, that made me realise there are quite a few J names for the 'main' characters.

James, Jacob, Jack, Jeff/Joker, John if you go with the default broShep name.

[Dirgegun]

bas_kon wrote...

Maybe because there aren't many names beginning with an "S" with a Spanish counterpart, because his real name is Esteban. Scott, Sean...etc don't have Spanish form, at least none that I know of.

But I'm curious. Will he have spanish or southamerican heritage? From some dialog of his, it seems to me that Vega is southamerican, not sure about Steve, though. Maybe he is too.

He has to have it somewhere to have that last name, I think? Though how far back that heritage is would be just a guess.

I really want to head canon that Steve and Mister Vega were childhood friends and came from the same part of town... if they were born on Earth, that is. Same space station/colony if they weren't born on Earth.

Edit: random capitals. ><

Modifié par Dirgegun, 03 février 2012 - 11:30 .

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...

I don't know how to make it any clearer. I don't think the developers had any bad intentions.
As to why I don't believe it's coincidence, Adam and Eve are one the most well known fictional couples of the world. Almost everbody in the western world knows the story about paradise, apple and snake. And most people will know this story from a very young age. You just have to see or hear "Adam and Steve" without even paying attention and it's in your head.

If they didn't have any bad intentions, I can't really see the problem.
 
I mean, Steve's *entire* character and dialogues are loaded with what look like in-jokes or references from the developers. 

The names themselves are 'S/S'. 

He's married (and in New York, no less) which subverts the Zevran stereotype right off the bat. 

He makes a joke with Vega about bears that goes right over James' head. 

I'm pretty sure this is the only Bioware video game in the history of ever that's included the words "eye candy". 

What's to say a joke about Adam and Steve is any different? It's a fun play on words. 

(As for the supposed effeminacy of replacing female names in fictional couples with a male name, I don't get that impression at all. I think reading it as a reinforcement of gender roles or stereotypes about femininity is overthinking it to the extreme. People subvert 'Adam and Steve' or 'Romeo and Julian' because there are male names that fit there, while still remaining familiar enough to be linked to their original form.)

I mean, if you're looking to subvert, parody or reference Romeo and Juliet as a gay romance, "Romeo and Julian" is a lot more recognisable than calling it "Banquo and Macduff". People doommongering about same-sex marriage couldn't make their point if the glib line went something like: "Marriage wasn't meant to be between Gary and Jim". 

[ElitePinecone]

bas_kon wrote...

From some dialog of his, it seems to me that Vega is southamerican, not sure about Steve, though. Maybe he is too.

You'd think so, but with heritage the way it works in Mass Effect (or is supposed to work, increasing paleness of the cast othewise) Steve could be a quarter Zulu, half Colombian, an eighth New Zealander and an eighth Canadian and nobody would bat an eyelid. 

Hendel Mitra's parents were Indian and Swedish, for example. Anderson and Kai Leng's ethnicities are also similarly mixed.

(That said, most or all of those characters were first encountered in Karpyshyn's books, and Karpyshyn really pushed the integration aspect of the Alliance that hasn't been reflected much in the games)

Getting to my point:

From the one line of dialogue in the beta (the shuttle to Sur'Kesh) that I heard months ago, Cortez doesn't sound overtly South-American or Spanish. Though obviously that could've been placeholder audio. 

[Jazinto]

Dirgegun wrote...

Jumping in to add my two cents. I don’t
think there is anything meant by the name Steve here (in my opinion, of
course. You’re allowed to continue to believe whatever you like.)

Also...
no, not everyone immediatly thinks 'Adam and Steve' or even 'Adam and
Eve'. The Adam and Eve story as well as that silly rhyme involving 'Adam
and Steve' was not a thought I had at all when I found out there was a
character called Steve. It was also the last thought from my mind when I
found out he was likely the exclusive m/m... In fact I didn't think of
it at all until just now, when I read that.

Sorry if any of that didn't make sense/just sounded like a ramble. ><

I never said everyone would think of Adam and Steve, when thinking about Steve Cortez. That's not my point. In fact I've said, the developers may not even be aware of it.

Dirgegun wrote...

There are other S names they could have
gone with, but writers tend to have an ear for names and sometimes
certain names just ‘sound’ right, if that makes sense.

‘Scott Cortez’
‘Seth Cortez’
‘Sean Cortez’

Those
combinations, to me, don’t sound quite as good as Steve/Stephan Cortez.
I like the other names, but combined with that last name... I don’t
feel the sound of the name is quite right. In the real world someone
might have that combination and it works fine! But in fiction those
small details become more important/are at least paid attention to more.


I’m not saying that’s 100% right, or that my opinion on the
name is the same as the writer who created him, but sometimes decisions
in writing really are that simple “Does this sound good?”

Brodyaha wrote...

Sam Cortez?

Sammy Cortez?

Salvador Cortez?

Sandy Cortez?

Salvatore Cortez?

Sherman Cortez?

Shane Cortez?

Stanislaus Cortez?

Except for the last one, I prefer Steve.

S-names were just examples to work with the S/S nod, it's not like anybody limited them to names starting with S. And even if they wanted to stick to those names, there was no need to stick specifically to "Cortez".

Modifié par Luca Stern, 03 février 2012 - 12:15 .

[Wittand25]

Luca Stern wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

There are other S names they could have
gone with, but writers tend to have an ear for names and sometimes
certain names just ‘sound’ right, if that makes sense.

‘Scott Cortez’
‘Seth Cortez’
‘Sean Cortez’

Those
combinations, to me, don’t sound quite as good as Steve/Stephan Cortez.
I like the other names, but combined with that last name... I don’t
feel the sound of the name is quite right. In the real world someone
might have that combination and it works fine! But in fiction those
small details become more important/are at least paid attention to more.


I’m not saying that’s 100% right, or that my opinion on the
name is the same as the writer who created him, but sometimes decisions
in writing really are that simple “Does this sound good?”

Brodyaha wrote...

Sam Cortez?

Sammy Cortez?

Salvador Cortez?

Sandy Cortez?

Salvatore Cortez?

Sherman Cortez?

Shane Cortez?

Stanislaus Cortez?

Except for the last one, I prefer Steve.

S-names were just examples to work with the S/S nod, it's not like anybody limited them to names starting with S. And even if they wanted to stick to those names, there was no need to stick specifically to "Cortez".

But for your Adam and Steve example to work, would we not need an Adam ? Shepard´s default name is John and no Crew member ever had the first name Adam.
Honestly I think you are trying a little too hard to see Cortez in a negative light considering that you complained that he can be killed (which is true for most other Lis as well) and now have problems with his name. OK I would understand if he was called ****** Dickins or something, but Steve is a rather common name isn´t it.
What I want to say is that while I am not 100% happy on how I interpret the leaked script and hope that there will be more options then him, I reserve judgement whether the options for m/m romances are satisfactory or not until after I have seen the final game.

Modifié par Wittand25, 03 février 2012 - 12:23 .

[Vapaa]

Wittand25 wrote...

But for your Adam and Steve example to work, would we not need an Adam ? Shepard´s default name is John and no Crew member ever had the first name Adam.

That could work with Chief engineer Adams

[Jazinto]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If they didn't have any bad intentions, I can't really see the problem.
 
I mean, Steve's *entire* character and dialogues are loaded with what look like in-jokes or references from the developers. 

The names themselves are 'S/S'. 

He's married (and in New York, no less) which subverts the Zevran stereotype right off the bat. 

He makes a joke with Vega about bears that goes right over James' head. 

I'm pretty sure this is the only Bioware video game in the history of ever that's included the words "eye candy". 

What's to say a joke about Adam and Steve is any different? It's a fun play on words. 

(As for the supposed effeminacy of replacing female names in fictional couples with a male name, I don't get that impression at all. I think reading it as a reinforcement of gender roles or stereotypes about femininity is overthinking it to the extreme. People subvert 'Adam and Steve' or 'Romeo and Julian' because there are male names that fit there, while still remaining familiar enough to be linked to their original form.)

I mean, if you're looking to subvert, parody or reference Romeo and Juliet as a gay romance, "Romeo and Julian" is a lot more recognisable than calling it "Banquo and Macduff". People doommongering about same-sex marriage couldn't make their point if the glib line went something like: "Marriage wasn't meant to be between Gary and Jim". 

Yes, that's probably true. It's certainly a reasonable explanation. Seems like I've interpreted too much into the vile nature of the hateful homophobes.

[Wittand25]

Vapaä wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

But for your Adam and Steve example to work, would we not need an Adam ? Shepard´s default name is John and no Crew member ever had the first name Adam.

That could work with Chief engineer Adams

Only if they are standing next to each other the whole time, since otherwise they have nothing in common to link them as a couple to make the jibe work.

Also remember the writing staff is not as deep to make such hidden jokes. Kenneth is Scottish because the wife of a writer really digs Scottish accents and no allusion to the first StarTrek at all. So such a complicated biblical jibe seems rather unlikely.

[Jazinto]

Wittand25 wrote...

But for your Adam and Steve example to work, would we not need an Adam ? Shepard´s default name is John and no Crew member ever had the first name Adam.
Honestly I think you are trying a little too hard to see Cortez in a negative light considering that you complained that he can be killed (which is true for most other Lis as well) and now have problems with his name. OK I would understand if he was called ****** Dickins or something, but Steve is a rather common name isn´t it.
What I want to say is that while I am not 100% happy on how I interpret the leaked script and hope that there will be more options then him, I reserve judgement whether the options for m/m romances are satisfactory or not until after I have seen the final game.

There's no Adam necessary. It's about Steve Cortez' name. S/S LI being called Steve and Sam and particularly Steve out of all names there are. And it appears the difference between unconscious and conscious is a mystery to some:? Anyway, it's just a name after all, but it's true the Steve Cortez we know from the script being the only m/m romance is not what I expected, nor what I've hoped for. However I don't see how this could prevent me from discussing him. It's not like this is a thread where no criticism is allowed. This thread is about discussing same-sex romance and that's what we do, isn't it? At least it's a topic that wasn't chewed up three times before.

[Wittand25]

Luca Stern wrote...
There's no Adam necessary. It's about Steve Cortez' name. S/S LI being called Steve and Sam and particularly Steve out of all names there are. And it appears the difference between unconscious and conscious is a mystery to some:? Anyway, it's just a name after all, but it's true the Steve Cortez we know from the script being the only m/m romance is not what I expected, nor what I've hoped for. However I don't see how this could prevent me from discussing him. It's not like this is a thread where no criticism is allowed. This thread is about discussing same-sex romance and that's what we do, isn't it? At least it's a topic that wasn't chewed up three times before.

If you think that Steve is called Steve because it rhymes with Eve and that Eve is a part of a famous couple called Adam and Eve you do need an Adam to make the though process valid. Especially considering if you go on to claim that the fact that Steve rhymes with Eve is a way to make him more femine.
One can just as easily claim that the responsible writer is a Dynasty fan (Steve married Samantha on that show).

Steve is just a name like many others and bananas are usually just fruit, not everything has some unconscious reasons.
The more hoops you have to jump through to get to a conclusion the less likely it is.
Steve=Adam&Steve=Adam&Eve is a very big leap considering there is no hint of Adam.

[ElitePinecone]

Wittand25 wrote...
OK I would understand if he was called ****** Dickins or something

That... could be a bit of a problem, yes.