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[shepskisaac]

Luca Stern wrote...
They decided not make him romanceable by ManShep. In other words they decided not to make him bisexual.

Going with the same logic, Zaeed must be asexual since neither Shep can romance him. Ohh and Tali & Garrus were asexual in ME1 and then "retconned" into heterosexuals in ME2 right?

Luca Stern wrote...
Bi Kaidan wouldn't be a meaningful, triology-arching friendship-gone-romance to me.

For you. Many other players see him as the only way to have any kind of quasi-trilogy romance arc.

Luca Stern wrote...
and of the unspoken words of Bioware it carries with it. That (while they bothered to include manic-depressive, asian, autistic, black, old, indian, disabled, bisexual and lesbian characters from different nations and aiming for complete gender equality) including gay content wasn't worth the effort and the trouble, not even a random side character somewhere. That bonus fantasy  romances with aliens were more important and still are. That we still wouldn't have any m/m content, if they hadn't pushed back the release date. That they didn't decide to include gay content this time, because it is right and a good thing to do, but because they had so much time, they could go so low on their priority list.
Thinking about it aggravates me. I know having m/m conent is a good thing no matter what. And depending on what options we have I will romance Kaidan. It just doesn't change, that I'm angry.

Urhm yeah, and Steve and Vega (if he's available) won't remind you of the fact that gay romances are here because of the delay exactly how? It's not like their romances were planned earlier than Kaidan's. And there's of course Liara and other Asaris who will keep reminding you how there wasn't any m/m content in ME1 & ME2 while there were lesbians. So yeah, what does it have to do with Kaidan I don't know

Modifié par IsaacShep, 07 février 2012 - 12:23 .

[SolidBeast]

Luca Stern wrote...
Bioware decided ManShep couldn't have Kaidan back then. To be honest having him be m/m now would be major fan service.

Having s/s at all is fan service. It has nothing to do with Kaidan.

They would make Kaidan bi, not reveal him as bi.

This should be irrelevant. That some of you people can meta all the way through amazes me. When I read a book, I don't think of what the author's reasons for including sex scenes are, for example. When I watch a movie, I don't think "they're really in front ot a green screen, my immersion is broken since the window behind them doesn't exist". The same way, in the game universe, Kaidan would tell Shepard he's in love with him and I will just imagine that he's been bi the entire time and I just didn't know it because he never decided to tell me. When you're in the game, you're in the game universe. What happens in real life in the process of making said game shouldn't matter.

Bi Kaidan wouldn't be a meaningful, triology-arching friendship-gone-romance to me. He would remind me of not being able to romance him in the first game and of the unspoken words of Bioware it carries with it. That we still wouldn't have any m/m content, if they hadn't pushed back the release date.

But you could say the same thing about Steve. I realize these are your feelings and I understand them and know you have the right to feel the way you do. But it's only ruining the experience for you. Really, it changes nothing and helps no one.
In the event that Kaidan is bisexual, shouldn't it make things better knowing that the devs finally made up for the lack of romance with him? It's better than only one option with Cortez.

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...

I'm not arguing against Kaidan being m/m, I was arguing against doing so for the wrong reasons. If he's available I will romance him. 

So if Bioware were to pretend they'd made him m/m to cater for people who want that option of an LI, rather than because they didn't have any other options and wanted to make up the numbers, you'd be okay with that? 

'Cause it's not likely we're ever going to know either way. 

If you're going to reject a potential m/m LI because it was only ever an afterthought, you may as well reject everything in ME3 - nothing was planned for s/s romances until April last year. 

Why not just enjoy whatever is in there?

[Sareth740]

Kaidan was planned to be bisexual, or ACTUALLY whatever the play wanted, since ME1. There are still files of Sheploo's voice actor doing the homosexual lines with Kaidan, as well as a few other choice spots in the game itself. So I think it's fitting that Kaidan be bisexual, considering the topic has never been explored in any detail for ANY character except for Kelly.

[xassantex]

SolidBeast wrote...
.... 

@xassantex - new gay exclusive characters. Steve is the shuttle pilot, while Samantha is the communications specialist. Each has their own thread, but they have not been officially announced yet.

thanks, i'll go check. 

[ElitePinecone]

Sareth740 wrote...

Kaidan was planned to be bisexual, or ACTUALLY whatever the play wanted, since ME1. There are still files of Sheploo's voice actor doing the homosexual lines with Kaidan, as well as a few other choice spots in the game itself. So I think it's fitting that Kaidan be bisexual, considering the topic has never been explored in any detail for ANY character except for Kelly.

It's a common misconception, but not true. 

Bioware had Hale and Meer record both Shepards' lines, since it was more economical - that's why Shepard refers to himself as a woman, in Meer's voice. 

There was never a plan to have Ashley or Kaidan available for both genders. They considered it early in development but decided not to go down that path. 

I'm sure someone has the relevant information / dev quotes - it's come up dozens of times in this thread. 

[Maugrim]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Sareth740 wrote...

Kaidan was planned to be bisexual, or ACTUALLY whatever the play wanted, since ME1. There are still files of Sheploo's voice actor doing the homosexual lines with Kaidan, as well as a few other choice spots in the game itself. So I think it's fitting that Kaidan be bisexual, considering the topic has never been explored in any detail for ANY character except for Kelly.

It's a common misconception, but not true. 

Bioware had Hale and Meer record both Shepards' lines, since it was more economical - that's why Shepard refers to himself as a woman, in Meer's voice. 

There was never a plan to have Ashley or Kaidan available for both genders. They considered it early in development but decided not to go down that path. 

I'm sure someone has the relevant information / dev quotes - it's come up dozens of times in this thread. 

Actually no.

While your scenario is the more likely one we have two dev quotes. 

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...

I didn't work on ME1 but I would venture to say that most of the developers feel that Liara/Femshep is an F/F relationship. I don't know if the "she's an asari" thing was ever intended to take away from the F/F aspect (since I wasn't around when the idea was put together) but nevertheless, she was intended as the gay female love interest.

As far as M/M love interests... I can say that it was planned, but as far as I know it was cut due to time constraints. Quite frankly the demand is small. I'm not defending it, but the choice is between a level that everyone will enjoy and a romance that only a minority will enjoy. We did it in Jade so we're not afraid of it; there just isn't enough time.

Sorry to all the gay ME fans

-Thomas

That was posted: Tuesday, 29 September 2009 05:56AM by Thomas Roy an Associate Programmer.

takrys wrote...

Apologies if I screwed up the quote-snipping.

Both Shepard voice actors recorded both sides of the romance. The romance dialog was included in the main follower conversation file, and ultimately, it was considered faster just to have the actor do a take on every dialog line, regardless of whether it was one that would ever fire in game, than to spend part of the VO session trying to figure out
whether a given line was on the romance track or not.

Once the lines were recorded, there was a brief high-level discussion about whether we should make Kaiden and Ashley bisexual, since the lines were already there. The leads decided not to do it. The lines work on a technical level, but they didn't do justice to the characters and  sounded very strange sometimes. Beyond that, there were questions about having to do a different cutscene for different genders.

But to be clear, it was never part of the plan. It was only briefly considered after the lines were recorded, and it was only recorded because it was easier and faster than marking some lines as "Hale only records".

That was posted 06-22-2008, 09:04 AM on the Penny Arcade forums by Patrick Weekes one of the writers.

It's clear the latter is the more likely and the one you have chosen to believe.  Even I admit it the more likely of the two but  for myself there will always be doubt.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 07 février 2012 - 02:47 .

[ElitePinecone]

I think I'll take the word of one of the lead writers over someone who didn't work on the game.

[bleetman]

Yeah, I'll go with the second one.

Though the reasoning for not going with it afterwards does grate a little, in a 's/s was apparently only an afterthought far enough into the development time that they'd recorded all the lines' kind of way. Grumble grumble.

[Ryzaki]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I think I'll take the word of one of the lead writers over someone who didn't work on the game.

Yeah this.

Frankly at this point I wouldn't care if any returning male was s/s (except Jacob and Thane...Jacob because...it's Jacob...and Thane for obvious reasons (he's an inch away from kicking the bucket as it is).

[shepskisaac]

And I would go with actually reading what Patrick said. It baffles me why some people read it as "it never happened and devs never allowed it because they wanted Ash & Kaidan straight as an arrow".

He says there was a discussion about making Ash & Kaidan available for s/s romance based on the lines that already were there, the o/s lines, recorded an all. It was decided against because like Patrick says, the o/s lines didn't fit in s/s context (because well, they don't). It was late in production, so obviously it was either using lines that didn't fit or not having s/s romance at all since there wasn't time to write & voice new lines, along with creating new cutscenes which Patrick also talks about.

Patrick's posts only confirms what the other Bioware dev said - time constraints.

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

IsaacShep wrote...
Patrick's posts only confirms what the other Bioware dev said - time constraints.

That would make little sense because if it were just a time issue, wouldn't they have put in male/male content in ME2?

On a side note, some people get access to the ME3 demo a week early, right?  We might get a glimpse of our shuttle pilot a lot sooner than we think.

[Collider]

Patrick's posts only confirms what the other Bioware dev said - time constraints.

I don't see where he outright states that Bioware would implemented same sex romances with the VS if they had more time. What you say seems to be supposition at best.

Modifié par Collider, 07 février 2012 - 04:31 .

[shepskisaac]

Collider wrote...

I don't see where he outright states that Bioware would implemented same sex romances with the VS if they had more time. What you say seems to be supposition at best.

A rather logical and likely supposition I say based on Patrick's description how the lines worked technically but (obviously) not contextually when straight-out copy_pasted and how it would be an issue for them to make new cutscenes combined with  Thomas_R_Roy's statement that it was a time issue.

[ElitePinecone]

IsaacShep wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't see where he outright states that Bioware would implemented same sex romances with the VS if they had more time. What you say seems to be supposition at best.

A rather logical and likely supposition I say based on Patrick's description how the lines worked technically but (obviously) not contextually when straight-out copy_pasted and how it would be an issue for them to make new cutscenes combined with  Thomas_R_Roy's statement that it was a time issue.

But how does it being a timing issue fit at all with the fact that it was decided during the development process to not have them? Thomas and Patrick are saying completely different things, both can't be right. 

If the intention was there, but they ran out of time, that's one thing. 

But if the intention was discussed then discarded, as Weekes suggests, it's totally another. 

(RE: ME2's development. There are stories floating around that some developers strongly pushed for m/m but were overruled by higher-ups within the team or the company. I have no idea whether that's true, but the sources at the time seemed genuine.)

[shepskisaac]

ElitePinecone wrote...

But if the intention was discussed then discarded, as Weekes suggests, it's totally another.

If you can't reuse existing lines, it means you have to write new ones (and voice them). So if Patrick's talking how creating new cutscene would've been an issue (time issue obviously, since unlike someone suggested once ity ain't exactly a rocket science for anyone to figure out how to pose 2 guys rolling in bed for mo-cap), then the same applies to writing & voicing new lines.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

lightsnow13 wrote...

At this point - I just want vega. If it has to be one - make it vega. Already he breaks the mold of a gay stereotype. If we only get one and it's cortez, it's like a slap in the face. Like we're not good enough for a legit romance.

Just give us vega..

It would just make his character infinitely more interesting too.

[ElitePinecone]

lightsnow13 wrote...

If we only get one and it's cortez, it's like a slap in the face. Like we're not good enough for a legit romance.

Sorry, but the entitlement is ridiculous. Bioware owes you nothing. It's a disservice to the work of this thread for two years to call m/m options 'a slap in the face' just because you don't like them. 

Steve is a legitimate romance.

He has just as many conversations as any other character, and a bigger role in the story than most of the returning ME2 cast. 

[KillTheLastRomantic]

ElitePinecone wrote...

lightsnow13 wrote...

If we only get one and it's cortez, it's like a slap in the face. Like we're not good enough for a legit romance.

Sorry, but the entitlement is ridiculous. Bioware owes you nothing. It's a disservice to the work of this thread for two years to call m/m options 'a slap in the face' just because you don't like them. 

Steve is a legitimate romance.

He has just as many conversations as any other character, and a bigger role in the story than most of the returning ME2 cast. 

So he gets a substancial amount of dialogue? I didn't want to completely spoil his character (and potentially the entire plot depending on what his dialogues are about). Is he well written, in your opinion?

[ElitePinecone]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

lightsnow13 wrote...

If we only get one and it's cortez, it's like a slap in the face. Like we're not good enough for a legit romance.

Sorry, but the entitlement is ridiculous. Bioware owes you nothing. It's a disservice to the work of this thread for two years to call m/m options 'a slap in the face' just because you don't like them. 

Steve is a legitimate romance.

He has just as many conversations as any other character, and a bigger role in the story than most of the returning ME2 cast. 

So he gets a substancial amount of dialogue? I didn't want to completely spoil his character (and potentially the entire plot depending on what his dialogues are about). Is he well written, in your opinion?

In my opinion, he's well-written. Though I'm not the biggest fan of his particular character problem (because every character in a Bioware game has to have a problem), I think it's well done for what it is. Steve is a much more grounded character than any of the other m/m LIs, and the character seems more believable as a result (no space assassins or brooding ex-slaves or angsty revolutionaries). 

And yes, Steve's dialogue is as much as any other LI in the game, probably more than what most of the ME2 squadmates get (apart from perhaps Garrus and Tali). 

[Augoeides]

ElitePinecone wrote...

lightsnow13 wrote...

If we only get one and it's cortez, it's like a slap in the face. Like we're not good enough for a legit romance.

Sorry, but the entitlement is ridiculous. Bioware owes you nothing. It's a disservice to the work of this thread for two years to call m/m options 'a slap in the face' just because you don't like them. 

Steve is a legitimate romance.

He has just as many conversations as any other character, and a bigger role in the story than most of the returning ME2 cast. 

Not to mention his backstory and such makes several pretty cool statements about how homosexuality is treated
in the Mass Effect-verse.

Now maybe it's just me being all jazzed up on delicious mocha but I think Steve is just as much a mold-breaker of gay stereotypes as Vega or Kaidan and he will fill just as many niche tropes and stereotypes about men/people as they do. If one thinks someone's value or worth as a romantic partner is determined by their ability within gameplay to run out and shoot things with their Shepard then they must have a pretty low opinion of all the crew members without whom the daily operations of the Normandy decline or stop altogether.

A Love Interest is just a NPC with whom the in-game character of Shepard can engage in a relationship of some description. If the relationship is not viable and comeplling in and of itself, then making the person with the poor or outright stupid/bad/sucky romance plot a squadmate isn't going to alter how bad that romance plot is, it just means the character with the crappy romance can now shoot a gun and use a few powers at your behest in a mission or assignment.

As much as I love Vega over Steve (so far) if he had a romance plot for Males and it went something like this:

Conversation:
Vega: I like girls
MShep: I see
Vega: I like to **** their ***** all night with a little **** and ****** and *****, so *** that you ******* sissy **** ****
MShep: I see. We'll talk later
Vega: See you Commander *quick sexy leer* 

Conversation 2:
MShep: Hey Vega
Vega: One sec Commander I'm looking up chick on chick porn
MShep: I see
Vega: Wanna take off our clothes and wrestle?
MShep: Sure.
*Wrestling, Vega wins*
Vega: Commander....
MShep: Yes Vega?
Vegva: I know this is out of the blue and all but... I want to **** your man ***** all night with a little **** and ****** and *****, so *** that you ******* sissy **** ****
MShep: Herp Derp good enough for me
Vega: Now we're gay lovers!
Liara: Oh look that Reaper looks like a Unicorn!

Then the fact that he can shoot a gun in battle for me isn't going to make up that hilarious disappointment, nor is it going to make his romance better than Steve's even if Steve's were to be essentially a carbon copy of the above.

We already know that it is not a carbon copy however, and from all reports it's a well thought out and fairly impressive subplot.

If that didn't make any sense or help at all then blame the mocha. MAN I LOVE MOCHA 

[bigbrowncows]

Augoeides, LMAO, please please please get a job at BW and start writing their dialogue. I want those conversations in EVERY game I play from now on. Racer, FPS, RPG, sim, I don't care.
Also unicorn shaped reapers are clearly gonna be the final boss fight in ME3... :-)

[ElitePinecone]

Augoeides wrote...
I think Steve is just as much a mold-breaker of gay stereotypes as Vega or Kaidan and he will fill just as many niche tropes and stereotypes about men/people as they do. If one thinks someone's value or worth as a romantic partner is determined by their ability within gameplay to run out and shoot things with their Shepard then they must have a pretty low opinion of all the crew members without whom the daily operations of the Normandy decline or stop altogether. 

Agree with both of these things. 

In contrast to many of the previous Bioware m/m LIs (except perhaps Sky?), Cortez isn't likely to be called promiscuously Zevranesque, or compared to an anime character, or accused of having bombastic angst with delusions of grendeur. He breaks moulds just by being grounded and human rather than exceptional. Unlike practically every other LI Shepard has (excluding Sam and possibly Kelly), Steve isn't superpowered and isn't a famous galactic hero. That provides its own dynamic. 

Plus, if 'worth' as an LI is measured by whether they can shoot things, then... I'm a bit stunned, honestly. If the concept of 'contributing to the war effort and fighting by Shepard's side' is narrowed to being literally next to the Commander at every possible moment, a whole lot of potential for drama is lost. 

For example: a particular element of Steve's dialogue (it could be romance or friendship, I forget) involves his admission to Shepard that he hates letting the Commander leave his shuttle because it means Shep might not come back. 

Steve does fly missions in some of the main questline and features in practically every mission that's not in a hub world. 

That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy or support a Vega or Kaidan romance (my first preference would be a VS-for-both-Shepards scenario, because I do like the idea of the relationship development), but disliking the idea of Sam and Steve *solely* because one thinks it's appeasement strikes me as silly. 

[Knightly_BW]

Augoeides wrote...

Conversation:
Vega: I like girls
MShep: I see
Vega: I like to **** their ***** all night with a little **** and ****** and *****, so *** that you ******* sissy **** ****
MShep: I see. We'll talk later
Vega: See you Commander *quick sexy leer* 

Conversation 2:
MShep: Hey Vega
Vega: One sec Commander I'm looking up chick on chick porn
MShep: I see
Vega: Wanna take off our clothes and wrestle?
MShep: Sure.
*Wrestling, Vega wins*
Vega: Commander....
MShep: Yes Vega?
Vegva: I know this is out of the blue and all but... I want to **** your man ***** all night with a little **** and ****** and *****, so *** that you ******* sissy **** ****
MShep: Herp Derp good enough for me
Vega: Now we're gay lovers!
Liara: Oh look that Reaper looks like a Unicorn!

Wheee! Vega is the man!

One reason I prefer Party Member LI over Staff LI is party banter. I love how party members give reactions to things in game. As in ME3 we will probably see more DA like party banter (that is what I get from "more party banter" announcement), those talks flesh out NPCs as much as usable dialogues. If they make Vega m/m romance option it would be cool. Otherwise my main shep probably continue rescuing galaxy without any romances.

Will I skip chance of getting know Cortez? Of course not. I will dig him with another shep but not with my main.

Even I am gay, I love fun/good written romances more. This is why other than one all my hawkes male or female romanced with Isabela or prefered Morrigan/Leliana over Zevran most of the time. I swear Bioware games will turn me "straight" if this trend continues.