25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

Nyoka wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Yes, it wasn't a specific group, but out-right murder is a crime no matter the motivation. If someone hates my family because they're Hispanic, I don't give a damn. But if my mother is murdered, I am not going to feel a sense of relief if the police tell me they're possitive that race had nothing to do with it.

I was only responding to one point you made: "Shepard should be allowed to be homophobic because he can murder people and hate/genocide aliens." I pointed out murdering individuals and being bad towards aliens are not valid analogies for being hateful against a specific group that exists in real life. To the best of my knowledge Shepard hasn't done that, and that is the counter to your point.

Now, if you want to make another different argument about why Shepard should be allowed to be homophobic, that's another thing. I was talking about that point in particular. But in my opinion it would be unnecessary because the writers already have plenty of fictional collectives to hate: turians, batarians, aliens in general, Cerberus, biotics, terra firma guys, etc.

All I was saying is that of all the crass, rude, immoral, violent, evil, bizarre, etc. actions the renegade Shepard can perform in the game, up to and including genocide, it would not be out of character for a Shepard who is a complete ass to say something homophobic, timid or mean, when turning down an advance from a gay squadmate. I doubt it would be more than a line, followed by a grumble or angry response, not become an issue for the rest of the game.

[ilovemesometurian]

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

[Abispa]

Montezuma IV wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

That's true. If they're going to have it in the game, then they can also make an option for Shepard to be against it. However, murderers and psychopaths are usually not kind people who are made fun of for being the way they are. I've seen people be relentlessly cruel to homosexuals for no apparent reason, so you also cannot blame them for being sensitive to criticism, which is what seperates the murder/renegade issue from teh homosexuality. This gives Shepard the right to be a Paragon homophobe or a Renegade homosexual.

Again, I believe BioWare will handle this with class, like everything else. Romance, is something I rarely concern myself with worrying about when it comes to the prowess of BioWare =)

Well, my goodnes.....I hope homosexuality isn't a problem in 2185.....do you really want it to be?

Homosexuality and bisexuality has a very uneven history of acceptance. I would hope that political cowardice, corrupt politicians, drug addiction, slavery, borish treatment of women, and crime dens filled with violent gun toting mercenaries aren't part of the future either, but Mass Effect is FULL of modern day vices and attitudes.

[weikle21]

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

[AngelicMachinery]

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

Do we know how seriously she takes it,  she seems rather okay with killing things...  she doesn;t tear down the religious monuments of other faiths (She should, the bible says so) she is okay with premarital sex,  I could go on but Ashley is your typical religious person.  She loves her god,  but,  she is willing to bend the rules and hopes the guy upstairs will forgive her her sins.

[shepskisaac]

*cough* Join Kaidan for S/S Love Interest in ME3 Group *cough*

[weikle21]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

Do we know how seriously she takes it,  she seems rather okay with killing things...  she doesn;t tear down the religious monuments of other faiths (She should, the bible says so) she is okay with premarital sex,  I could go on but Ashley is your typical religious person.  She loves her god,  but,  she is willing to bend the rules and hopes the guy upstairs will forgive her her sins.

I guess your right about that. She's not all that open-minded though. She doesn't welcome other species. She feels humanity should always come first, but surprisingly hates cerberus xD.

[AngelicMachinery]

weikle21 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

Do we know how seriously she takes it,  she seems rather okay with killing things...  she doesn;t tear down the religious monuments of other faiths (She should, the bible says so) she is okay with premarital sex,  I could go on but Ashley is your typical religious person.  She loves her god,  but,  she is willing to bend the rules and hopes the guy upstairs will forgive her her sins.

I guess your right about that. She's not all that open-minded though. She doesn't welcome other species. She feels humanity should always come first, but surprisingly hates cerberus xD.

Being open minded about aliens though has nothing to do with being open minded about a lesbian relationship.  She see's aliens as a danger,  I doubt she feels the same way about lesbians.

[Abispa]

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

Ashley fan here. My male Shepard is loyal, but I don't mind if female Shepard fans get a chance to experience some snuggle-bunnies.

I LIKE the fact that Ashley believes in God, even though I'm an atheist, but it was never established that she was part of a particular religion. In the Mass Effect world, the stereotypical Christians waiting for the end of days on a 6,000 year old Earth are probably a thing of the past. It is possible that she is a Christian, Jew or Muslim, but I really doubt that the major religions exist without some major renovations.

Even today, many liberal denominations say, "Hey! We all worship God! We're ALL faithful!" and there are many openly gay clergymen and rabbis being ordained. Islamic gays are a (literally) endangered species, but some do live openly, and may bode well for the future.

I get the feeling from Ashley's defensiveness that she's in the minority as a believer period. Not because she's part of a conservative sect, but because she actually believes in a supreme being. All we know is that Ashley believes in a God and that her father is "with God now."

If Ashley does become a lesbian option, I KNOW why: it's a fan service. For whatever reason, it wasn't available in ME1 (just as Tali and Garrus weren't), and in ME2 Ashley/Kaidan/Liara was left out of the squad to ensure that s/he would still be alive for ME3. But now it is. She's MAY (hasn't been confirmed yet) be a lesbian simply because some fans want it. So long as she doesn't turn into Isabela, I have no problem with that.

[weikle21]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

Do we know how seriously she takes it,  she seems rather okay with killing things...  she doesn;t tear down the religious monuments of other faiths (She should, the bible says so) she is okay with premarital sex,  I could go on but Ashley is your typical religious person.  She loves her god,  but,  she is willing to bend the rules and hopes the guy upstairs will forgive her her sins.

I guess your right about that. She's not all that open-minded though. She doesn't welcome other species. She feels humanity should always come first, but surprisingly hates cerberus xD.

Being open minded about aliens though has nothing to do with being open minded about a lesbian relationship.  She see's aliens as a danger,  I doubt she feels the same way about lesbians.

I mean open-minded in general. Besides, we have know idea how she feels about f/f relationships, canon wise, because the f/f was cut from the game. I'm not saying i don't want it to be a possibility, hell I welcome it, im just playing devil's advocate. 

[weikle21]

Abispa wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

weikle21 wrote...

ilovemesometurian wrote...

 I just hope that the romances all take a turn like LOTSB.

I think we all would like that lol. Jack said she's not the girls club kinda girl. Idk if that means she doesn't like the friendship aspect or the relationship.

I'm not sure about that part... good point. Maybe it's the drama or something she doesn't like, I'm not sure. Going both ways does help to solidify her "doesn't care about details" attitude, it just seems to fit with her you know? Ashley also seems like a good candidate as well to me. Beautiful but tough.

Idk, Ashley takes religion very seriously and that makes me think she doesn't swing that way. But that can also make for a very intense "coming out" to femshep!

Ashley fan here. My male Shepard is loyal, but I don't mind if female Shepard fans get a chance to experience some snuggle-bunnies.

I LIKE the fact that Ashley believes in God, even though I'm an atheist, but it was never established that she was part of a particular religion. In the Mass Effect world, the stereotypical Christians waiting for the end of days on a 6,000 year old Earth are probably a thing of the past. It is possible that she is a Christian, Jew or Muslim, but I really doubt that the major religions exist without some major renovations.

Even today, many liberal denominations say, "Hey! We all worship God! We're ALL faithful!" and there are many openly gay clergymen and rabbis being ordained. Islamic gays are a (literally) endangered species, but some do live openly, and may bode well for the future.

I get the feeling from Ashley's defensiveness that she's in the minority as a believer period. Not because she's part of a conservative sect, but because she actually believes in a supreme being. All we know is that Ashley believes in a God and that her father is "with God now."

If Ashley does become a lesbian option, I KNOW why: it's a fan service. For whatever reason, it wasn't available in ME1 (just as Tali and Garrus weren't), and in ME2 Ashley/Kaidan/Liara was left out of the squad to ensure that s/he would still be alive for ME3. But now it is. She's MAY (hasn't been confirmed yet) be a lesbian simply because some fans want it. So long as she doesn't turn into Isabela, I have no problem with that.

haha I loved my ****-hag Isabela!! 

[weikle21]

rynluna wrote...

Well said, Abispa. I also don't see how believing in God or being religious excludes someone from being gay.

I never meant to imply otherwise. I just assumed, wrongly in fact, that she would be opposed to the idea simply because she was religious, which the majority of time is the case. I whole-heartedly believe someone can be gay and have religion.

[Abispa]

Nyoka wrote...

Abispa wrote...

All I was saying is that of all the crass, rude, immoral, violent, evil, bizarre, etc. actions the renegade Shepard can perform in the game, up to and including genocide, it would not be out of character for a Shepard who is a complete ass to say something homophobic, timid or mean, when turning down an advance from a gay squadmate. I doubt it would be more than a line, followed by a grumble or angry response, not become an issue for the rest of the game.

Oh, it wouldn't necessarily be out of character. It's just that one thing doesn't justify the other. From Shep being capable of murdering the guy in Jack's mission does not follow that it's reasonable for Shep to be homophobic. And there's no need for that when you have plenty of better targets for Shep's bigotry, like the ones I mentioned in my last post. If some hate really needs to be introduced, is there any reason why an homophobic Shep should be a better thing to have in the game than, for example, anti alien Shep?

Female Shepard has already had an opportunity to express that she finds it unsettling that Liara is hitting on her, not because she's an alien, but because she's a woman. I am not saying it's a GOOD thing that Shepard could be homophobic, only that the possibilty has already been introduced and wouldn't out of character for a renegade Shepard who is a total ass.

And while s/he has plenty of targets for his/her bigotry, a gay LI expressing an interest in him/her would be front and center of potentially one of the biggest ****s the galaxy has ever known, and their conversation will the be situation s/he will be dealing with at that moment. Just as Shepard doesn't run around yelling "I hate all aliens!" for no apparent reason, I doubt Bioware suddenly have lots of scenes of Shepard telling gay jokes to his/her crew and run around with a "Bible states one man, one woman" t-shirt.

EDIT: It looks like I'm just using more and different words to say the same things over and over. This is not something I want to dominate ME3, nor is it a hill I want to fight and die on.

Modifié par Abispa, 18 juin 2011 - 03:43 .

[Maugrim]

Re: Gay Only Romances

David Gaider wrote...

I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".

Just happened to run across it on a trip down the memory lanes of the forums. It's one of the reason I question the motives of people who continue to advocate for gay only romances instead of having some people become bisexual. I mean Gaider is probably being generous with that 9 out of 10 estimation so my theory is that they are just hoping Bioware chooses nothing.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 18 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[ElitePinecone]

On the discussion above about renegade characters being able to insult bisexual squadmembers, I'm totally fine with it.

Remember we had the option to be critical of Ashley's religious beliefs in ME? The dialogue options were something like "I agree with you", "That's silly", or "I don't have a right to tell you what to believe." Nobody batted an eyelid when the option to express Shepard's opinion was given. Heck, it even improves the immersion when we can say what we feel like.

Then there's the precedent of all the (tongue-in-cheek) insults between characters in DA2. I remember Gamlen (the uncle) being rather rude about the Anders/mHawke relationship - it just established that the character was a bit of a jerk.

makenzieshepard wrote...

Re: Gay Only Romances

David Gaider wrote...

I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".

Just happened to run across it on a trip down the memory lanes of the forums. It's one of the reason I question the motives of people who continue to advocate for gay only romances instead of having some people become bisexual. I mean Gaider is probably being generous with that 9 out of 10 estimation so my theory is that they are just hoping Bioware chooses nothing.

This is entirely true.

From Bioware's perspective S/S romances have to be worth including. "Gay or lesbian only" characters simply wouldn't be cost-effective.

If the choice is between bisexual characters or nothing, I think anyone who supports s/s would support bisexual characters every time.

Bioware are a company, not a charity or a vehicle for social change. They need to make sure content they include is appreciated and worthwhile.

[KawaiiKatie]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Re: Gay Only Romances

David Gaider wrote...

I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".

Just happened to run across it on a trip down the memory lanes of the forums. It's one of the reason I question the motives of people who continue to advocate for gay only romances instead of having some people become bisexual. I mean Gaider is probably being generous with that 9 out of 10 estimation so my theory is that they are just hoping Bioware chooses nothing.

...bwuh?

......I advocate for the inclusion of gay-only romances... but I'm not against the implementation of bisexual romances. I just think that it would be cool to have a definitively gay hero in a Bioware game, since Juhani is, as I've said, still recognized as "bisexual" in a lot of circles.

At this point, I'll take what I can get as far as male homosexuality in ME3. Bisexual light-romance ala Kelly Chambers? Great! Gay party member? Awesome. Bisexual Kaidan? Sign me up. I have my preferences, of course, but really, I'm just eager for any homosexual content in ME3.


EDIT: And yes, I absolutely understand that "gay and lesbian" restricted love-interests are not cost-effective (though this only raises further questions about Juhani) for Bioware, but some day, in some game, I'd love to see Bioware take the financial risk and include a homosexual love interest. Who knows, maybe it would reflect in their profits in a positive way!

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 18 juin 2011 - 06:53 .

[AngelicMachinery]

I'm relatively sick of seeing bisexual characters being seen as lesser in comparison to straight and gay ones. It's not enough that they're willing to engage in a relationship with you, for some reason they are lessened because they're not on one side of the line or the other.

[ElitePinecone]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

EDIT: And yes, I absolutely understand that "gay and lesbian" restricted love-interests are not cost-effective (though this only raises further questions about Juhani) for Bioware, but some day, in some gay, I'd love to see Bioware take the financial risk and include a homosexual love interest. Who knows, maybe it would reflect in their profits in a positive way!

Demographics are always changing and I think it's probably something that will happen eventually. 

There's also changing technology; Gaider (or someone else?) said that cutscenes in particular were fairly expensive to produce, and then there's the cost of character design and voice acting. If these things become relatively cheaper (in terms of producing content and characters) then I could see this happening eventually. 

[Psychotic Killer Cheeseburger]

well, i got a suggestion here:

bioware could just simply, for the old LI's, make the s/s romances into free dlc patches for each character wich are available upon release of ME 3.

That way, i think everybody's happy, people who don't want that kind of content simply don't install it and people who only want certain charcters to be gay/bisexual etc. can choose who they want. Hell, i would probably even pay for that kind of dlc.
i also think that having openly gay squadmates would be great, even though i personally would not initiate a m/m romance with my malesheps.
I'm totally fine with most if not all LI's being bisexual, so long as there's also the possibilty to just be friends, in DA 2, that was kind of difficult to achieve, because if you were nice an complementary, romance was somewhat plumply forced on you. They could even just do a settings section concerning all he LI's and if you want s/s romances to be availale for your sheps. That way everyone, the homophobes, "devout christians", people who actually want s/s romaces, and those who just want them for new characters get their way

Modifié par Psychotic Killer Cheeseburger, 18 juin 2011 - 07:58 .

[highcastle]

Psychotic Killer Cheeseburger wrote...

well, i got a suggestion here:

bioware could just simply, for the old LI's, make the s/s romances into free dlc patches for each character wich are available upon release of ME 3.

That way, i think everybody's happy, people who don't want that kind of content simply don't install it and people who only want certain charcters to be gay/bisexual etc. can choose who they want. Hell, i would probably even pay for that kind of dlc.
i also think that having openly gay squadmates would be great, even though i personally would not initiate a m/m romance with my malesheps.
I'm totally fine with most if not all LI's being bisexual, so long as there's also the possibilty to just be friends, in DA 2, that was kind of difficult to achieve, because if you were nice an complementary, romance was somewhat plumply forced on you. They could even just do a settings section concerning all he LI's and if you want s/s romances to be availale for your sheps. That way everyone, the homophobes, "devout christians", people who actually want s/s romaces, and those who just want them for new characters get their way

That's the type of "why not make it a toggle" talk that overlooks how unintentionally offensive it is to tell a character they can turn their sexuality on or off. It's not meant to be taken that way, I'm sure, but it drifts into unfortunate implications territory. Plus, I really don't see how hard it is to just not intiate a romance that you don't want. Don't want m/m, then don't flirt with Kaidan/Thane/Vega/whoever. It's simple enough as it is without complicating it with patches and buttons and such.

While this isn't a discussion for DA2, I will say I disagree with you. I went into the game with a specific LI in mind. I avoided any flirt lines with the others. No one came onto me. No ninjamance from Ashley or Leliana. They all left me in peace. Sure, Isabela gets flirty, but she gets flirty with everyone. It wasn't serious. Anders can respond to a single non-flirt line with an advance...which he immediately apologizes for and gives Hawke an out for. I'd love something like this system in place for ME2. It was the first BioWare game I'd played in a while where the LIs weren't constantly throwing themselves at me.

[ElitePinecone]

It's an interesting suggestion but it doesn't look like happening.

A user on Twitter asked Christina Norman if it would be worthwhile waiting until BW created a patch to allow S/S LIs before replaying ME/ME2.

The response was "Don't wait."

If any familiar characters are available as S/S options, in some capacity, it would be in ME3 and not in the previous games through a retroactive patch.

Not to mention that this would be a significant amount of work (including recording dialogue) for games that came out one year and four years ago, respectively. Bioware's focus is all on ME3.

[Maugrim]

KawaiiKatie wrote...


...bwuh?

......I advocate for the inclusion of gay-only romances... but I'm not against the implementation of bisexual romances. I just think that it would be cool to have a definitively gay hero in a Bioware game, since Juhani is, as I've said, still recognized as "bisexual" in a lot of circles.

At this point, I'll take what I can get as far as male homosexuality in ME3. Bisexual light-romance ala Kelly Chambers? Great! Gay party member? Awesome. Bisexual Kaidan? Sign me up. I have my preferences, of course, but really, I'm just eager for any homosexual content in ME3.


EDIT: And yes, I absolutely understand that "gay and lesbian" restricted love-interests are not cost-effective (though this only raises further questions about Juhani) for Bioware, but some day, in some game, I'd love to see Bioware take the financial risk and include a homosexual love interest. Who knows, maybe it would reflect in their profits in a positive way!

Note: I am only addressing full LI's not lesser romances like Kelly/Juhani, flings, non-romanceable NPC's etc.

Dear madam you misunderstand me, though I see how easily that could be done.  It's fine to want, even advocate for a gay only romance though I neither see it happening nor see the benefit of limiting any character in such a way.  What's good for the gander is good for the goose and all that. If the character was really cool and popular it might do some good for certain privileged persons to see what it's like being on the other side of the equation but there would be too many friendly casualties in such a vindictive lesson for my tastes. 

The subset of people I was particularly addressing (this I think was not clear in my original post) are the ones who say they are supportive, but use the dreaded "R" word when there is even a hint of opening up past LI's.  They then trot out the argument that they want a mix of straight/bi/gay LI's because it's the other dreaded "R" word.  We know from Bioware's own mouth that the chances of gay only LI's might as well be nil for the foreseeable future purely based on cost analysis.  If we are to get any slice of that choices pie it seem we must always have the smaller choices/piece of pie to keep them happy. And that is why I find the motives of that and related subsets to be under suspicion.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 18 juin 2011 - 09:06 .