25715 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

BrianWilly wrote...

In DA2, yeah okay, four of your comrades just happen to be bi, that works out okay and nearly isn't nearly strange as some detractors have tried to make it out to be, plus there was Sebastian anyway.  But by the end of ME3 we'll be up to thirteen different LIs, and for literally every single one of them to be bisexual just pushes it to the point where you have to wonder where everyone else is.  I wouldn't be down with that kind of setting.  I know that people hate the "realism" argument for one reason or another.

The recurring romances cannot be bi, because you cannot have a homosexual relationship with them in prior games and cannot initiate a new romance with them in ME3. Except for Liara, because she's special. And maybe Kelly.

The only characters who are available to romance with a new or single imported character are the non-squadmate flings, the VS, Vega, and I think some secret lady that has not been revealed except for lamers who look at the leaked data and talk about it here. (Liara and Kelly may get new romances; I don't know.)

So the only possible same-sex romances are the crewmates (only one m/m, two possible f/f), the VS (only one of whom could be alive, and who defaults to Kaidan for female Shepard and Ashley for male Shepard, so is less likely to be same-gender unless you specifically force it), and the two new squadmates. Out of these possibilities, the only confirmation is that Steve is (best guess) exclusively gay, and a character named Samantha is (best guess) exclusively lesbian. The remaining two or three are unknown.

The trillion and one romances from ME2 are set. If you were in them, they were acknowledged, but they are not available for improptu lovin' in ME3. They cannot be gay, unless they were blue and/or fed your fish and you played female Shepard.

As far as bisexuality, I never bought this argument. Anders is arguably pansexual for everyone, and Isabela loves sex, but Fenris and Merrill have no forced sexuality. When I romanced Merrill, there was not a hint that she would ever have any romantic feeling for a woman. When my male Hawke was rivals with Fenris, there was no indication that he was gay, but when my friendship Hawke fell in love with him, there was nothing in the game to suggest that he was anything but gay.

They are not bisexual. They are not portrayed as being in bisexual. They are portrayed only as being in love with you.

Modifié par devSin, 14 février 2012 - 05:38 .

[ElitePinecone]

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Oh, I forgot to add before...

That lady at the start of the ME3 demo wasn't Samantha, it was a random Alliance soldier/admin person.

Samantha (like Steve) is only introduced on the Normandy.

Wasn't that Steve sitting in the background at a computer when she was speaking both before and after Sheard enters the conference room or whatever it is?  It sure looked like him.

That's 'random Alliance tech #435'.

Steve and Sam are already on the Normandy when the Reapers invade.

Sam has a line: "There weren't many of us aboard when the Reapers hit..."

[Game_Fan_85]

BrianWilly wrote...

Let me preface this by saying that I would have no problems if Ash or Kaidan were bi, and I understand and agree with the arguments explaining why they should/could be.

That being said, I would find it kind of problematic if every single love interest in ME was bi.  Because then it'd be like...well, where are the straight characters?  Hell, where are the gay characters? I don't have any straight or gay friends on this ship? "Bisexual" is a valid sexual identity onto itself, it's not some sort of magical Megazord amalgamation of a straight person and a gay person, nor is it automatically interchangeable with all other queer sexual orientations, and so I do find it a bit unnerving to depict bisexuality as a simple game design compromise in order to allow as many demographics to romance a single character as you can.

Maybe the developers are fans of Torchwood.  Captain Jack is from the future and says something like "you people and your quaint catergories" when the team are discussing if they think he is gay or straight in the 2nd or 3rd episode.  In his future there is no "gay" or "straight"  

Modifié par Game_Fan_85, 14 février 2012 - 05:34 .

[Game_Fan_85]

ElitePinecone wrote...

That's 'random Alliance tech #435'.

Steve and Sam are already on the Normandy when the Reapers invade.

Sam has a line: "There weren't many of us aboard when the Reapers hit..."

Ahh, gotcha, thanks. 

[devSin]

ElitePinecone wrote...

That's 'random Alliance tech #435'.

Biff the Understudy?

[ElitePinecone]

devSin wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

That's 'random Alliance tech #435'.

Biff the Understudy?

He'll never graduate, if the Reapers did their work properly 

;______; 

(I saw that cutscene back in November when it leaked, and it was full of missing textures and computer-generated voices for the NPCs - I wouldn't be surprised if those characters are used in a bunch of other cutscenes as well)

[devSin]

Biff is a well that will never empty.

Even if they wipe out the human species, Biff will remain to stand in for us. Important dialogue cannot be missed! The engine could crash!

[Knightly_BW]

IsaacShep wrote...

Asperius wrote...

If you ask Voice Actor, Kaidan also should be bi on first game too, right? Nearly everything needed was in game but cut out.<_<

No. Raphael Sbarge never recorded any s/s dialogues for ME1, nor was told by BioWare he would be recording. BioWare briefly considered enabling s/s romance with Kaidan (and Ash) using copy+pasted dialogues from opposite-sex romance, and AFTER they were already done. Eventually, they decided that copy+pasted dialogues didn't fit in same-sex context and they didn't have time to write new ones along with creating new cutscenes for s/s romances so the idea was dropped.

In short: Raphael wouldn't say the same thing about ME1.

Apoligize than. Thanks for clearifying ME1 bi situation.

Anyway Bioware will say the last word. So we will wait and see.

[Frozen83]

New to this thread, and not a native English speaker, be gentle .

About romances (S/S included)... I think they are important part of the games (ME1,2, DAO, DA2). It makes the character you are playing more realistic, and you as a player can identify with Warden or Shepard or Hawke more easily. Just think about it, you are about to kill a big dragon next morning when someone comes to your room and after some pressure almost admits her feelings. And then you have energy to finish the game in the 2 AM just to be able to say "I'll find her!". From my experience, in DAO, Morigan was allways THE LI for my male Warden. I've tried Zevran as male and Alistair as female, but it just didn't work for me as a player. Again, in DA2, I always choose Anders. The same reason. The choice between "you are a terrorist and should be killed" and "but I still love you and will do anything to keep you safe" is what makes my adrenaline rush when i drop a fireball on Meredith. Tried with Fenris and Isabela once or twice, but it simply doesn't have the same appeal to me. Never with Merril... Oh, and I always got the kiss from Aveline . 

I play male in 98% of the cases, females are just for testing male str8 LIs (I simply cannot relate to female characters, and don't feel interested in my female characters stories, don't ask me why, don't know myself). And here, in ME, for me, the only LI worth considering are Liara and maybe Miranda. Everybody else just don't make me play just one more mission so that I could talk with them and advance the relationship. It is about the character, not sex. I cannot relate to either one of other LIs or their stories.

That said, I rather didn't play ME1 as female, and left Kaidan alive and now I'm waiting to see what will happen. If he turns, great, if not, well, I guess a good friend is also something... We don't get in our life everything we want, so this would add to the reality in the game. If they forced everyone to become bi in ME3, that would just look like sloppy and unimaginative work to me.

Still, I would be very dissapointed if M/M relationships wouldn't be included in the game. One of my Shepards was left all alone during both games (I consider him gay) and he'll be very dissapointed if nobody is there in the galaxy for him in ME3. Or worse, if the ship's queer is a jerk . Another one is waiting for Liara to join him on the Normandy. In other news, my Warden is always str8, and Hawke gay. Just seemed right to do it that way . M.

[alexdrake]

Somebody please give me good news and tell me my shepherd can hook up with Vega; or at least spar with him, say good game (but slap negotiable), and hit the showers together...Maybe I need a cold shower.

[Knightly_BW]

alexdrake wrote...

Somebody please give me good news and tell me my shepherd can hook up with Vega; or at least spar with him, say good game (but slap negotiable), and hit the showers together...Maybe I need a cold shower.

Other than Cortez, all other bi options are currently ain't officially confirmed.

If they didn't change the leaked script I think Kaidan more likely be a bi option than Vega. Also I found Vega's lines a bit irritating.

His looks reminds me half orcs and I always wanted to have fling with a half orc. So let's hope we will have that option.

[Meken]

Garrus for male Shepard. Please BioWare. That is all. Story drafts be damned, I won't give up hope!

[alexdrake]

Exactly my point my Shep needs someone that can roughly pin him down, someone savage, Alenko was too fragile.

[Criz]

'fragile' isn't exactly the word I'd use for someone who killed a turian with Biotics when he was 17 and since holds back when using his powers

IsaacShep wrote...

Asperius wrote...

If you ask Voice Actor, Kaidan also should be bi on first game too, right? Nearly everything needed was in game but cut out.../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

No.
Raphael Sbarge never recorded any s/s dialogues for ME1, nor was told
by BioWare he would be recording. BioWare briefly considered enabling
s/s romance with Kaidan (and Ash) using copy+pasted dialogues from
opposite-sex romance, and AFTER they were already done. Eventually, they
decided that copy+pasted dialogues didn't fit in same-sex context and
they didn't have time to write new ones along with creating new
cutscenes for s/s romances so the idea was dropped.

In short: Raphael wouldn't say the same thing about ME1.

though
I have to say as  someone who played the transgenderd by console
command gay Shepard and likes mHawke/Anders, you don't need completely
different lines to make things work

but that's in part because I
just think that Shepard (depending on how Shep is roleplayed) and Alenko
fit one another, and Shep's gender is only secondary

Modifié par Criz-Zone, 14 février 2012 - 10:01 .

[alexdrake]

Fragile is relative, his biotics were impressive but the scum bag left me in the dust on Horizon, because he was emotionally fragile.

[bigbrowncows]

Tietj wrote...

Guys (and gals), there is way too much hostility in this thread, to each other and to Bioware... With a few, transient exceptions, we all want s/s options in ME3 and, in one way or another, we're getting that option! We should be happily talking about the possibilities and ramifications, not arguing over whether we want Kaidan or Vega or Steve, or whether the fewer number of options for m/m is a sign of some conspiracy against gay people, or whether we think talking to Steve is icky and unless we can tell every single character in the game that we're gay and need some personal space, the developers have somehow failed us. Look, we may or may not be satisfied with the way things are implemented. That's true in every game; I, for one, would have liked the option in ME2 to tell Cerberus to go soak their heads and then to have Shepard defect to the Alliance. And an option to tell Jack to quit whining and put on some clothes would have been nice, too. I didn't get those options, and I just had to accept that. Let's not fight with each other when we all basically want the same thing, and let's not criticize the development team simply because what they gave us was implemented in a way that we didn't like in some small way.

This.  At a time when gay marriage is being fought for in many many countries, we now have a character in one of the biggest franchises who has been married to a man it's been accepted enough to not be a big deal (in the game anyway). Of course I want ME3 to have oodles of hot sweaty man-luvvin with every male character but this alone is a pretty big deal.  I know we've had gay marriage in other games but that doesn't mean we should ignore this...

[alexdrake]

Of course you're right from a societal perspective its worth celebrating. Yes the political ramifications are...ahh screw it the game went gold today. I want my Shega damn it.

[ThePuppetWithNoStrings]

alexdrake wrote...

I want my Shega damn it.

You & me both! 

[ElitePinecone]

bigbrowncows wrote...

This.  At a time when gay marriage is being fought for in many many countries, we now have a character in one of the biggest franchises who has been married to a man it's been accepted enough to not be a big deal (in the game anyway). Of course I want ME3 to have oodles of hot sweaty man-luvvin with every male character but this alone is a pretty big deal.  I know we've had gay marriage in other games but that doesn't mean we should ignore this...

Especially when it's so matter-of-fact.

the ME3 writers. 

[LukaCrosszeria]

Ziggeh wrote...

Call me cynical, but I'm not sure the inclusion of lesbian romance can be seen as intentionally catering to a lesbian demographic, but rather to the far, far broader "dudes who want to see chicks doin' it" audience.

Not cynical, realistic. I agree that Liara's romance was most likely designed to please the "dudes who want to see chicks doin' it". "Guys doin' it" would be nightmare fuel rather than fetish fuel to said dudes, who BioWare consider the majority of the ME audience. It's my guess they didn't want to risk rubbing that majority the wrong way because ME brings in the big bucks. With that kind of money involved, it's understandable they'd rather be cautious and not risk it. I'm not judging them for it. There is a lot of bigotry and intolerance going around, last thing you want is to direct it to a game you're about to release. Yet nothing will ever change if people don't take risks. BioWare could have been brave, believed in their game and used its sheer awesomeness to work towards the acceptance of LGTB content as a mainstream thing. David Gaider in his statement about Dragon Age, said: "The romances in the game are not for “the straight male gamer”. They’re for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don’t need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant… and that’s ignoring the idea that they don’t have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The “rights” of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent “right” to get more options than anyone else."

It's a shame the same company which became famous for catering to the minority with DA:O & DA2, neglected it with ME and SWTOR (admittedly "big bucks" games, so the stakes are higher). For both games they initially stated there would be no same gender romance and only backpedaled after getting so much grief over it (In SWTOR's case there came the promise that s/s content will be included in later additions to the game after the "there is no gay in Star Wars" incident). It may sound harsh, but I believe that's the truth of it. It's hard to give the benefit of the doubt when the evidence points to the opposite, so to speak.

That being said, the fact that ME 3 (& SWTOR eventually) will include s/s content is a big step forward. Better late than never and it would not have been possible if BioWare hadn't helped pave the way for this. They should always get recognition for that. If they come through with ME 3 & SWTOR, they deserve a big pat on the shoulder.

(I'll still be flaming annoyed if my MaleShep doesn't get Kaidan tho <_<)

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 14 février 2012 - 11:56 .

[Knightly_BW]

LukaCrosszeria wrote...

It's a shame the same company which became famous for catering to the minority with DA:O & DA2, neglected it with ME and SWTOR (admittedly "big bucks" games, so the stakes are higher). For both games they initially stated there would be no same gender romance and only backpedaled after getting so much grief over it (In SWTOR's case there came the promise that s/s content will be included in later additions to the game after the "there is no gay in Star Wars" incident). It may sound harsh, but I believe that's the truth of it. It's hard to give the benefit of the doubt when the evidence points to the opposite, so to speak.

I think it is more about target audience than Bioware. Bioware has no shame putting S/S romance options in fantasy games. Fantasy Fiction genre has more mixed target audience, males and females probably equal. If my memory serves even Neverwinter Nights OC had hints about F/F romance with Aribeth. Then came Jade Empire and we had my favorite M/M romance option to date, Sky (and F/F option with Princess). When they gave up WotC license and started to create their own Fantasy playground they became more independent. I remember in Thedas, there ain't any predjuices towards S/S but they viewed weird. Like today's open minded societies, they fall out of what defined normal by history/tradition but not sin or abomination. So in the end bisexuality is default, instead of heterosexuality as there are no obstacles before indivudals set by society or religion. That is my personal opinion anyway. So all bi LI of DA 2 ain't too out of place. I don't mind if they put M/F only romance option (like Cullen), as that means it is that characters perference. However I will be gratefull if they put a human M/M interest in DA 3 who isn't a lunatic terrorist.

My personal take on this matter mostly related to lead designers or in case of Star Wars or D&D, licence holding firms (Lucas Art or Wizards of the Coast). If Desing team for Project X wants to put S/S romance option I can't see Bioware leaders say "No! You can't". Even gay gamers are minority they are still exist so if they prefer/enjoy Bioware products they will stick to see their future games.

[ReveurIngenu]

I just wonder, though, are there that many straight guys who play as female Shepard just to make her a lesbian?  I mean, maybe we shouldn't expect there to ge as many gay love interests for male Shepard than female love interests for female Shepard, but it's ridiculous how many confirmed lesbian options there are compared to gay male options.  So far, it looks like there will be 4 females for female Shep and only 1 male for male Shep.

Ok, they want to cater to the straight guys who want lesbians.  Yet are there that many that it would be justified to have so many more lesbian choices than gay?  I honestly don't see either Vega nor Kaidan going bi, and  I don't see anyone else as another male LI for male Shepard.

[SolidBeast]

Frozen83 wrote...

The choice between "you are a terrorist and should be killed" and "but I still love you and will do anything to keep you safe" is what makes my adrenaline rush when i drop a fireball on Meredith. Tried with Fenris and Isabela once or twice, but it simply doesn't have the same appeal to me. Never with Merril...

This. Very much.
Also, your English is just fine.

[ElitePinecone]

Asperius wrote..
My personal take on this matter mostly related to lead designers or in case of Star Wars or D&D, licence holding firms (Lucas Art or Wizards of the Coast). If Desing team for Project X wants to put S/S romance option I can't see Bioware leaders say "No! You can't". Even gay gamers are minority they are still exist so if they prefer/enjoy Bioware products they will stick to see their future games.

I agree - though I think it's a risk writing paragraphs about it here, when we don't actually know the internal processes that lie behind approving or rejecting S/S. 

We don't know how much the 'do we put in s/s romances' question is determined by:

a) The project lead (or, say, the writers)
Their bosses within the company
c) The publisher, who has an eye on the market

There are nuances here, and we don't know about them - we can guess, but we don't know, and we probably never will know. 

I do remember more than one source suggesting that in ME2, some writers had argued for s/s content but were overruled by their seniors within the company and/or EA, as the publisher. 

They aren't confirmed, but I trust the fan who first had the information. 

[Finis Valorum]

ReveurIngenu wrote...

I just wonder, though, are there that many straight guys who play as female Shepard just to make her a lesbian?  I mean, maybe we shouldn't expect there to ge as many gay love interests for male Shepard than female love interests for female Shepard, but it's ridiculous how many confirmed lesbian options there are compared to gay male options.  So far, it looks like there will be 4 females for female Shep and only 1 male for male Shep.

Ok, they want to cater to the straight guys who want lesbians.  Yet are there that many that it would be justified to have so many more lesbian choices than gay?  I honestly don't see either Vega nor Kaidan going bi, and  I don't see anyone else as another male LI for male Shepard.

According to the statistic being touted on these forums approximately 18% of Mass effect players even play FemShep.
Since this game also has at least some women who prefer to play FemShep, I'd say you can safely reduce that 18% by half ,or maybe even two thirds, to get the percentage of men who play FemShep  and in addtion to that we must also consider the number of both men and women who only play o/s romances with their FemSheps and the people who play FemShep and never have her romance anyone.
So i think we can safely say that the number of people, especially the number of "straight male gamers" they're aiming for, who play FemShep solely for her s/s romances constitute a very small percentage of their total playerbase at best.
So, if Bioware is expecting a pat on the back for giving significantly more choices to one tiny portion of their playerbase compared to another tiny portion of their playerbase they certainly won't be getting it from me.
This game is supposed to be about choice so, give me some choice already, at this point I'd be fine with a truly asexual ManShep as well, but no, the default for ManShep will probably remain both straight and flirtatious, despite most players never even bothering to play any romance at all.